Do the Man Utd players and SAF deserve more credit?

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Black Magic

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Re: Do the Man Utd players and SAF deserve more credit?

Post by Black Magic on Tue Mar 03, 2009 12:01 pm

We blame Capello for a lot of things - Trying to lure half the bloody squad to Juve and I believe he also had an instrumental part in the division of the squad when he tried to convince the younger players to not listen to Totti, subsequently leading to the alienation of Cassano and his forcing to Madrid. There was angst among the players even after Cassano left as players like Mancini were friends with him and sided his way. Apparently Totti and Mancini rarely talked in his last 3 years at the club.

Like bloody Survivor it was, for many years.

The feeling I generally get is Capello is the master at milking the maximum resources of a club for immediate success only to part company when the consequences need to be dealt with.

I think Spalletti gets somewhat of a bad rap on this board. This is a man that took a desperate team facing midtable mediocrity to the CL and made them annual title contenders with a trophy here and there, all with limited funds. Achieving much of the success by employing new and exciting tactics. You guys can say he's overrated and CL inept, but we're grateful.

Parks lives

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Re: Do the Man Utd players and SAF deserve more credit?

Post by Parks lives on Tue Mar 03, 2009 12:01 pm

kas wrote:Why are you criticising him for his legacy at various clubs when you can't make a direct comparison to Ferguson on that criterion, since Ferguson hasn't had to leave the club yet. Who knows, maybe in a couple of seasons the Man. Utd. squad won't be in as good shape as it is now?

Also, I don't know about the Italian clubs, but at Madrid he was fired, didn't leave. And the squad situation was partly his fault (Emerson Laughing ) but mostly the incompetent sporting director and president.

That said, I'm no Capello fan. He's achieved success but I still think Ferguson is a better manager.

Because Capello's CV on paper looks amazing but there are reasons why all of his success didn't come with it's drawbacks.

I think Fergie's record of keeping squads strong and reinventing them is pretty good as well, so while the chances of the United squad being weaker in two years it's not very likely. He'll probably be leaving by then anyway.

Black Magic

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Re: Do the Man Utd players and SAF deserve more credit?

Post by Black Magic on Tue Mar 03, 2009 12:08 pm

Il Tritolone wrote:
Parks lives wrote:& that's part of my point. He comes into a side and only focuses on the first XI in the short term and gains instant success and then leaves them in a sorry state.

Roma were left short of money, the Real Madrid squad is a sorry state at the moment. The Juve team he left was full of old players.

The Milan team he inherited from Sacchi was already outstanding as well.

His spending at Roma was not that much relative to other Serie A teams challenging for the title. It is not his fault that the transfer bubble burst in 2002 and clubs like Fiorentina, Parma and Lazio had much more serious financial troubles.

At Juve, he didn't do the transfers.

ok

Like I said, we blame him for a lot of things. Not for the spending though - It was Sensi who insisted on most of the ridiculous purchases, Capello simply acted upon them.
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Pras_tama

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Re: Do the Man Utd players and SAF deserve more credit?

Post by Pras_tama on Tue Mar 03, 2009 12:47 pm

SAF is the best, please don't argue about that. You'll love to have that kind of genius to run your club. Believe me!

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Re: Do the Man Utd players and SAF deserve more credit?

Post by Guest on Tue Mar 03, 2009 12:58 pm

He has been at one club for 22 years, so i don't think their is a manager that you can properly compare him with, but 10 titles in 22 years isn't bad.

Don't think he could archive that in any other country.

Glenarch of the Glen

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Re: Do the Man Utd players and SAF deserve more credit?

Post by Glenarch of the Glen on Tue Mar 03, 2009 1:17 pm

how many trophies has Fergle won when he didn't have the most expensively assembled squad in the competition?
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Tweesus

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Re: Do the Man Utd players and SAF deserve more credit?

Post by Tweesus on Tue Mar 03, 2009 1:26 pm

Glennathinaikos wrote:how many trophies has Fergle won when he didn't have the most expensively assembled squad in the competition?

How many did he win at Aberdeen?

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Re: Do the Man Utd players and SAF deserve more credit?

Post by Guest on Tue Mar 03, 2009 1:28 pm

most coaches win when they have the most expensive squad in their league, they are a few exceptions like rafa at valencia, but that was when his main title rivals were in the shitters.
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christmasborocooper

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Re: Do the Man Utd players and SAF deserve more credit?

Post by christmasborocooper on Tue Mar 03, 2009 1:28 pm

Tweedle wrote:
Glennathinaikos wrote:how many trophies has Fergle won when he didn't have the most expensively assembled squad in the competition?

How many did he win at Aberdeen?

10

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Re: Do the Man Utd players and SAF deserve more credit?

Post by Glenarch of the Glen on Tue Mar 03, 2009 1:31 pm

Tweedle wrote:
Glennathinaikos wrote:how many trophies has Fergle won when he didn't have the most expensively assembled squad in the competition?

How many did he win at Aberdeen?

that Aberdeen team cost more to put together than the current Aston Villa side.

Did you know he fined one of his players once for overtaking him on a public road Very Happy
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Super Progress

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Re: Do the Man Utd players and SAF deserve more credit?

Post by Super Progress on Tue Mar 03, 2009 3:29 pm

For me what Capello has done is greater. Winning with a club like Roma who have such a loser mentality you can't believe it and if you need evidence just look at their reaction to losing against Inter sunday and last season. That is great feat but also the fact that SAF has only managed to get to two Cl finals having been able to manage his club as he wanted for alot of the time is simply not that great. At least Capello can kind of say he constantly has to adapt to his new clubs and he did manage a couple of finals including wooping Barcas dream team 4-0!

Just because people don't list somebody as their all time favourite doesn't mean that the things they have accomplished means any less. SAF has still managed to do something amazing. In my opinion SAF best achivement is managing to never get tired of winning as strange as that sounds.
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DS

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Re: Do the Man Utd players and SAF deserve more credit?

Post by DS on Tue Mar 03, 2009 3:38 pm

Cirque du Barcelona wrote:And if we are talking about managers from his generation how about Guus Hiddink or Ottmar Hitzfeld? Both (Hitzfeld certainly) are better then SAF imo.

Definitely not.
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DS

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Re: Do the Man Utd players and SAF deserve more credit?

Post by DS on Tue Mar 03, 2009 3:40 pm

So winning with Aberdeen doesnt count, where nobody won the league for 15 years except Rangers Celtic and nobody else has won it to date.
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DS

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Re: Do the Man Utd players and SAF deserve more credit?

Post by DS on Tue Mar 03, 2009 3:41 pm

It is not a fair comparison, managers i.e., all have different circumstances.
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Re: Do the Man Utd players and SAF deserve more credit?

Post by gone on Tue Mar 03, 2009 3:41 pm

The first manager since Ernst Happel to win CL with 2 different clubs + 7 titles in Germany (with 2 clubs) is not better?
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DS

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Re: Do the Man Utd players and SAF deserve more credit?

Post by DS on Tue Mar 03, 2009 3:44 pm

Cirque du Barcelona wrote:The first manager since Ernst Happel to win CL with 2 different clubs + 7 titles in Germany (with 2 clubs) is not better?

In my opinion not better, as good yes.
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christmasborocooper

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Re: Do the Man Utd players and SAF deserve more credit?

Post by christmasborocooper on Tue Mar 03, 2009 4:25 pm

Cirque du Barcelona wrote:The first manager since Ernst Happel to win CL with 2 different clubs + 7 titles in Germany (with 2 clubs) is not better?

Why does it matter that he did it with two clubs?

He's won the CL the same amount of times as Fergie..and he's won the German league less times than Fergie has won the EPL..

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Re: Do the Man Utd players and SAF deserve more credit?

Post by Glenarch of the Glen on Tue Mar 03, 2009 4:33 pm

DS wrote:
Cirque du Barcelona wrote:And if we are talking about managers from his generation how about Guus Hiddink or Ottmar Hitzfeld? Both (Hitzfeld certainly) are better then SAF imo.

Definitely not.


They so are
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christmasborocooper

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Re: Do the Man Utd players and SAF deserve more credit?

Post by christmasborocooper on Tue Mar 03, 2009 4:41 pm

Glennathinaikos wrote:
DS wrote:
Cirque du Barcelona wrote:And if we are talking about managers from his generation how about Guus Hiddink or Ottmar Hitzfeld? Both (Hitzfeld certainly) are better then SAF imo.

Definitely not.


They so are

Nah.

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Re: Do the Man Utd players and SAF deserve more credit?

Post by Glenarch of the Glen on Tue Mar 03, 2009 4:43 pm

Out of all the top managers who have won the Champions League, has any manager taken longer?

It took Fergle 13 years.
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christmasborocooper

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Re: Do the Man Utd players and SAF deserve more credit?

Post by christmasborocooper on Tue Mar 03, 2009 4:44 pm

Glennathinaikos wrote:Out of all the top managers who have won the Champions League, has any manager taken longer?

Out of all the top managers who have won the premier league how long has it taken Rafa?

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Re: Do the Man Utd players and SAF deserve more credit?

Post by Glenarch of the Glen on Tue Mar 03, 2009 4:47 pm

borocooper wrote:
Glennathinaikos wrote:Out of all the top managers who have won the Champions League, has any manager taken longer?

Out of all the top managers who have won the premier league how long has it taken Rafa?

When Fergle has been at United as long as Rafa has been at Liverpool, I don't think he had won much. It's not a good line of enquiry to go down if we're trying to make Fergle look good.

Talk about all the great homegrown players he's brought through in his 23 years at the club.
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christmasborocooper

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Re: Do the Man Utd players and SAF deserve more credit?

Post by christmasborocooper on Tue Mar 03, 2009 4:48 pm

Glennathinaikos wrote:
borocooper wrote:
Glennathinaikos wrote:Out of all the top managers who have won the Champions League, has any manager taken longer?

Out of all the top managers who have won the premier league how long has it taken Rafa?

When Fergle has been at United as long as Rafa has been at Liverpool, I don't think he had won much. It's not a good line of enquiry to go down if we're trying to make Fergle look good.

Talk about all the great homegrown players he's brought through in his 23 years at the club.

I'll talk about how many titles he's won. ok

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Re: Do the Man Utd players and SAF deserve more credit?

Post by Parks lives on Tue Mar 03, 2009 4:59 pm

Glennathinaikos wrote:
borocooper wrote:
Glennathinaikos wrote:Out of all the top managers who have won the Champions League, has any manager taken longer?

Out of all the top managers who have won the premier league how long has it taken Rafa?

When Fergle has been at United as long as Rafa has been at Liverpool, I don't think he had won much. It's not a good line of enquiry to go down if we're trying to make Fergle look good.

Talk about all the great homegrown players he's brought through in his 23 years at the club.

Do Liverpool fans deny Rafa is a pretty ordinary manager because it would mean admitting the CL win was a bit of a fluke?

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Re: Do the Man Utd players and SAF deserve more credit?

Post by Glenarch of the Glen on Tue Mar 03, 2009 5:03 pm

Parks lives wrote:


Do Liverpool fans deny Rafa is a pretty ordinary manager because it would mean admitting the CL win was a bit of a fluke?

Liverpool fans don't whine about Rafa not getting the credit he deserves.

The CL win was not more of a fluke that the times that Fergle won it. And it took Rafa a lot less than 13 years.
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Re: Do the Man Utd players and SAF deserve more credit?

Post by gone on Tue Mar 03, 2009 5:27 pm

borocooper wrote:
Cirque du Barcelona wrote:The first manager since Ernst Happel to win CL with 2 different clubs + 7 titles in Germany (with 2 clubs) is not better?

Why does it matter that he did it with two clubs?

He's won the CL the same amount of times as Fergie..and he's won the German league less times than Fergie has won the EPL..

It proves he's was good manager at more then one club. It's easy to build on succes and it's harder to beggin all over again. BTW, he spend less time at Dortmund and Bayern then SAF at Man United and the German league was stronger in the 90 then the EPL.
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Pierre Littbarski

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Re: Do the Man Utd players and SAF deserve more credit?

Post by Pierre Littbarski on Tue Mar 03, 2009 6:55 pm

fergie has reached 4 European finals in the last 26 years - Rafa has reached 3 in the last 5.


Last edited by Pierre Littbarski on Tue Mar 03, 2009 7:00 pm; edited 1 time in total
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BoBo Vieri 32

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Re: Do the Man Utd players and SAF deserve more credit?

Post by BoBo Vieri 32 on Tue Mar 03, 2009 6:59 pm

borocooper wrote:
Cirque du Barcelona wrote:The first manager since Ernst Happel to win CL with 2 different clubs + 7 titles in Germany (with 2 clubs) is not better?

Why does it matter that he did it with two clubs?

He's won the CL the same amount of times as Fergie..and he's won the German league less times than Fergie has won the EPL..

It shows that he can achieve the success under different circumstances with different players. What's more impressive is that one of those clubs was Dortmund.
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BoBo Vieri 32

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Re: Do the Man Utd players and SAF deserve more credit?

Post by BoBo Vieri 32 on Tue Mar 03, 2009 7:02 pm

Glennathinaikos wrote:
Parks lives wrote:


Do Liverpool fans deny Rafa is a pretty ordinary manager because it would mean admitting the CL win was a bit of a fluke?

Liverpool fans don't whine about Rafa not getting the credit he deserves.

The CL win was not more of a fluke that the times that Fergle won it. And it took Rafa a lot less than 13 years.

Rafa already proved his domestic credentials in Spain anyway and that was with a club that wasn't Real Madrid/Barcelona.
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Re: Do the Man Utd players and SAF deserve more credit?

Post by bluenine on Tue Mar 03, 2009 7:08 pm

Pierre Littbarski wrote:fergie has reached 4 European finals in the last 26 years - Rafa has reached 3 in the last 5.

Surely thats a biased way to look at it?? Firstly, SAF used to coach scotland 24 years ago. Secondly, you will find that Rafa actually was a coach even before he reached Liverpool.

So either you consider the entire coaching careers for both of them, or you consider a fixed period for both of them...

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