Do the Man Utd players and SAF deserve more credit?

Share
avatar
BoBo Vieri 32

Number of posts : 10187
Age : 31
Supports : Whichever Serie A team is doing best in the Champions League/Port Vale
Favourite Player : Andy Townsend, Robbie Earle
Registration date : 2006-08-13

Re: Do the Man Utd players and SAF deserve more credit?

Post by BoBo Vieri 32 on Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:02 pm

Batman wrote:
L-r d wrote:
Il Tritolone wrote:
Batman wrote:
Il Tritolone wrote:
borocooper wrote:
Il Tritolone wrote:
borocooper wrote:
Cirque du Barcelona wrote:The first manager since Ernst Happel to win CL with 2 different clubs + 7 titles in Germany (with 2 clubs) is not better?

Why does it matter that he did it with two clubs?

He's won the CL the same amount of times as Fergie..and he's won the German league less times than Fergie has won the EPL..

It shows that he can achieve the success under different circumstances with different players. What's more impressive is that one of those clubs was Dortmund.

Fergie has achieved success at different clubs though. What he did with Aberdeen, winning a league that usually belongs to Celtic and Rangers is surely impressive?

The fact Fergie hasnt left Man Utd to try and win the CL with another club shouldnt be held against him IMO. He's had to rebuild the squad a few times.

Totally agree. But i still think Hitzfeld winning the CL with Dortmund is more impressive than winning it with Man Utd (after numerous tries).

Winning the CL is not easy, there are a lot of good teams in Europe.

even in it's old format he struggled at first.

The 3 foreigner rule made it more difficult for Man Utd. It's been over he should have a better record in the cl for the teams he's had for sure. But there are some valid reasons as to why in certain times it didn't work out.

plus back then all the best players wanted to play in Spain or Italy.

Yet teams like Marseille, Ajax and Dortmund still managed to win the CL.

Glenarch of the Glen

Number of posts : 30157
Age : 30
Supports : Palestine
Favourite Player : Hélder Barbosa
Registration date : 2006-08-06

Re: Do the Man Utd players and SAF deserve more credit?

Post by Glenarch of the Glen on Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:03 pm

borocooper wrote:
Jaime wrote:Between 1975 and 1998 Dundee United won one league title, Aberdeen three, and the rest were Celtic or Rangers.

But again, why is this thread in the European Leagues board?

Sounds to me like he did pretty well then..stop your lies Glenn Hysen.

no lies, I said the other teams were competitive, it wasn't Celtic/Rangers 1 and 2 every year, Aberdeen, Dundee and Hearts were all up there.
avatar
christmasborocooper

Number of posts : 39348
Age : 30
Registration date : 2006-08-06

Re: Do the Man Utd players and SAF deserve more credit?

Post by christmasborocooper on Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:05 pm

Glennathinaikos wrote:
borocooper wrote:
Jaime wrote:Between 1975 and 1998 Dundee United won one league title, Aberdeen three, and the rest were Celtic or Rangers.

But again, why is this thread in the European Leagues board?

Sounds to me like he did pretty well then..stop your lies Glenn Hysen.

no lies, I said the other teams were competitive, it wasn't Celtic/Rangers 1 and 2 every year, Aberdeen, Dundee and Hearts were all up there.

It seems they rarely won it though, but Fergie won it.
avatar
Batman

Number of posts : 9071
Age : 34
Registration date : 2006-08-07

Re: Do the Man Utd players and SAF deserve more credit?

Post by Batman on Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:06 pm

borocooper wrote:
Glennathinaikos wrote:
borocooper wrote:

Fergie has achieved success at different clubs though. What he did with Aberdeen, winning a league that usually belongs to Celtic and Rangers is surely impressive?

.

don't confuse the Scottish First Division of the 70's and 80's with the SPL.

Aberdeen, Dundee and Hearts were all competitive before the SPL was formed.

Okay, well as I dont know the stats how many of them had won it around the time Fergie won it with Aberdeen?

Scottish Premier Division

SAF = Aberdeen (1978–1986)

Year = Winners
1975 = Rangers
1976 = Rangers
1977 = Celtic
1978 = Rangers
1979 = Celtic
1980 = Aberdeen
1981= Celtic
1982 = Celtic
1983 = Dundee United
1984 = Aberdeen
1985 = Aberdeen
1986 = Celtic

1987 = Rangers
1988 = Celtic
1989 = Rangers

Glenarch of the Glen

Number of posts : 30157
Age : 30
Supports : Palestine
Favourite Player : Hélder Barbosa
Registration date : 2006-08-06

Re: Do the Man Utd players and SAF deserve more credit?

Post by Glenarch of the Glen on Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:18 pm

so since Fergle joined Man Utd how many trophies has he won when he didn't have the most expensively assembled squad in the competition?
avatar
Batman

Number of posts : 9071
Age : 34
Registration date : 2006-08-07

Re: Do the Man Utd players and SAF deserve more credit?

Post by Batman on Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:19 pm

Il Tritolone wrote:
Batman wrote:
L-r d wrote:
Il Tritolone wrote:
Batman wrote:
Il Tritolone wrote:
borocooper wrote:
Il Tritolone wrote:
borocooper wrote:
Cirque du Barcelona wrote:The first manager since Ernst Happel to win CL with 2 different clubs + 7 titles in Germany (with 2 clubs) is not better?

Why does it matter that he did it with two clubs?

He's won the CL the same amount of times as Fergie..and he's won the German league less times than Fergie has won the EPL..

It shows that he can achieve the success under different circumstances with different players. What's more impressive is that one of those clubs was Dortmund.

Fergie has achieved success at different clubs though. What he did with Aberdeen, winning a league that usually belongs to Celtic and Rangers is surely impressive?

The fact Fergie hasnt left Man Utd to try and win the CL with another club shouldnt be held against him IMO. He's had to rebuild the squad a few times.

Totally agree. But i still think Hitzfeld winning the CL with Dortmund is more impressive than winning it with Man Utd (after numerous tries).

Winning the CL is not easy, there are a lot of good teams in Europe.

even in it's old format he struggled at first.

The 3 foreigner rule made it more difficult for Man Utd. It's been over he should have a better record in the cl for the teams he's had for sure. But there are some valid reasons as to why in certain times it didn't work out.

plus back then all the best players wanted to play in Spain or Italy.

Yet teams like Marseille, Ajax and Dortmund still managed to win the CL.

because they had good teams, you could say when they won it their team was the best in Europe.

This was a very good Ajax team (CL Winners):

AFC AJAX:
GK1 Edwin van der Sar
RB2 Michael Reiziger
CD3 Danny Blind (c)
DM4 Frank Rijkaard
LB5 Frank de Boer
CM6 Clarence Seedorf
54'
CM8 Edgar Davids
RW7 Finidi George
ST9 Ronald de Boer
AM10 Jari Litmanen
69'
LW11 Marc Overmars
Substitutions:
GK12 Fred Grim
DF13 Winston Bogarde
FW14 Nwankwo Kanu
54'
FW15 Patrick Kluivert
69'
FW16 Peter van Vossen
Manager:
Louis van Gaal
avatar
gone

Number of posts : 3455
Age : 33
Supports : Steaua
Favourite Player : Radoi, Ogararu, Nicolita, Iniesta, Edin Dzeko
Registration date : 2007-03-27

Re: Do the Man Utd players and SAF deserve more credit?

Post by gone on Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:22 pm

L-r d wrote:The 3 foreigner rule made it more difficult for Man Utd. It's been over he should have a better record in the cl for the teams he's had for sure. But there are some valid reasons as to why in certain times it didn't work out.

So you're saying your success is due to foreigners? Very Happy And that dutch, italian, spanish and german players where/are better than the english ones?
avatar
christmasborocooper

Number of posts : 39348
Age : 30
Registration date : 2006-08-06

Re: Do the Man Utd players and SAF deserve more credit?

Post by christmasborocooper on Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:28 pm

I dont think the fact that having some foreigners in your squad improves things is big news to be fair.
avatar
Football Genius

Number of posts : 7743
Age : 33
Supports : Liverpool
Registration date : 2006-08-07

Re: Do the Man Utd players and SAF deserve more credit?

Post by Football Genius on Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:29 pm

Kimbo wrote:No.

Laughing ok
avatar
gone

Number of posts : 3455
Age : 33
Supports : Steaua
Favourite Player : Radoi, Ogararu, Nicolita, Iniesta, Edin Dzeko
Registration date : 2007-03-27

Re: Do the Man Utd players and SAF deserve more credit?

Post by gone on Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:34 pm

borocooper wrote:I dont think the fact that having some foreigners in your squad improves things is big news to be fair.

Depends on the foriegners. But that's not the point. lrd said that when ALL the teams in Europe had only 3 foreign players (meaning more domestic players in the team) Man United (an english team) had a disadvantage (it was more difficult for them) => italians, spanish, etc. players where better then the english ones. Is my logic not good?
avatar
Since 1888

Number of posts : 5171
Age : 28
Supports : Sparta Rotterdam
Favourite Player : Sepp de Roover
Registration date : 2006-08-06

Re: Do the Man Utd players and SAF deserve more credit?

Post by Since 1888 on Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:34 pm

borocooper wrote:I dont think the fact that having some foreigners in your squad improves things is big news to be fair.

In which position do you think the Ajax team would have improved by foreigners?
avatar
Football Genius

Number of posts : 7743
Age : 33
Supports : Liverpool
Registration date : 2006-08-07

Re: Do the Man Utd players and SAF deserve more credit?

Post by Football Genius on Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:42 pm

Since 1888 wrote:
borocooper wrote:I dont think the fact that having some foreigners in your squad improves things is big news to be fair.

In which position do you think the Ajax team would have improved by foreigners?

Litmanen? Kanu? Laudrup one and two! Very Happy

Glenarch of the Glen

Number of posts : 30157
Age : 30
Supports : Palestine
Favourite Player : Hélder Barbosa
Registration date : 2006-08-06

Re: Do the Man Utd players and SAF deserve more credit?

Post by Glenarch of the Glen on Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:47 pm

Babangida
avatar
BoBo Vieri 32

Number of posts : 10187
Age : 31
Supports : Whichever Serie A team is doing best in the Champions League/Port Vale
Favourite Player : Andy Townsend, Robbie Earle
Registration date : 2006-08-13

Re: Do the Man Utd players and SAF deserve more credit?

Post by BoBo Vieri 32 on Tue Mar 03, 2009 11:40 pm

Batman wrote:
Il Tritolone wrote:
Batman wrote:
L-r d wrote:
Il Tritolone wrote:
Batman wrote:
Il Tritolone wrote:
borocooper wrote:
Il Tritolone wrote:
borocooper wrote:
Cirque du Barcelona wrote:The first manager since Ernst Happel to win CL with 2 different clubs + 7 titles in Germany (with 2 clubs) is not better?

Why does it matter that he did it with two clubs?

He's won the CL the same amount of times as Fergie..and he's won the German league less times than Fergie has won the EPL..

It shows that he can achieve the success under different circumstances with different players. What's more impressive is that one of those clubs was Dortmund.

Fergie has achieved success at different clubs though. What he did with Aberdeen, winning a league that usually belongs to Celtic and Rangers is surely impressive?

The fact Fergie hasnt left Man Utd to try and win the CL with another club shouldnt be held against him IMO. He's had to rebuild the squad a few times.

Totally agree. But i still think Hitzfeld winning the CL with Dortmund is more impressive than winning it with Man Utd (after numerous tries).

Winning the CL is not easy, there are a lot of good teams in Europe.

even in it's old format he struggled at first.

The 3 foreigner rule made it more difficult for Man Utd. It's been over he should have a better record in the cl for the teams he's had for sure. But there are some valid reasons as to why in certain times it didn't work out.

plus back then all the best players wanted to play in Spain or Italy.

Yet teams like Marseille, Ajax and Dortmund still managed to win the CL.

because they had good teams, you could say when they won it their team was the best in Europe.

This was a very good Ajax team (CL Winners):

AFC AJAX:
GK1 Edwin van der Sar
RB2 Michael Reiziger
CD3 Danny Blind (c)
DM4 Frank Rijkaard
LB5 Frank de Boer
CM6 Clarence Seedorf
54'
CM8 Edgar Davids
RW7 Finidi George
ST9 Ronald de Boer
AM10 Jari Litmanen
69'
LW11 Marc Overmars
Substitutions:
GK12 Fred Grim
DF13 Winston Bogarde
FW14 Nwankwo Kanu
54'
FW15 Patrick Kluivert
69'
FW16 Peter van Vossen
Manager:
Louis van Gaal

My point exactly. They still had a good teams despite your claim that the best players were attracted to Spain and Italy.
avatar
Football Genius

Number of posts : 7743
Age : 33
Supports : Liverpool
Registration date : 2006-08-07

Re: Do the Man Utd players and SAF deserve more credit?

Post by Football Genius on Wed Mar 04, 2009 12:12 am

I believe you miss the economics of the era, which can to a certain extent be understood with todays economics.

The dutch players were VERY good.... however also very young, delivering at the highest level made them hot property, Ajaxs inability to keep them further to this European triumph only emphasises the fact the core youth of dutch players could not sustain or achieve what they wanted to in the dutch team.

Do not forget the wonderful blend of young awsome talent and experience...

Its a shame this team could not stay together longer, however the divide in ambition and situation proved to pro-long further than their Ajax careers, and infact affected what could... should have been a highlight for the Dutch national team.
avatar
Super Progress

Number of posts : 15429
Age : 28
Supports : Real Madrid + Mierda inchada en un palo
Favourite Player : Laudrup,Cassano,Totti, Zidane,Marcelo, Pepe!,Guti, PROGRESS
Registration date : 2006-08-07

Re: Do the Man Utd players and SAF deserve more credit?

Post by Super Progress on Wed Mar 04, 2009 12:31 am

Cirque du Barcelona wrote:
borocooper wrote:I dont think the fact that having some foreigners in your squad improves things is big news to be fair.

Depends on the foriegners. But that's not the point. lrd said that when ALL the teams in Europe had only 3 foreign players (meaning more domestic players in the team) Man United (an english team) had a disadvantage (it was more difficult for them) => italians, spanish, etc. players where better then the english ones. Is my logic not good?
I can only speak for when I have followed football but I think most people in general believe that italian and spanish players are better then english. Don't know why that would be such a surprise really.

Lrd's point doesn't make much sense either because if im not mistaken then english clubs managed to win the Cl aswell before with this rule didn't they?

With all of this said the fact about SAF never doing more in CL is a big drawback. Especially when you consider the experience his teams should have gotten.

L r dd

Number of posts : 12451
Age : 30
Registration date : 2008-12-22

Re: Do the Man Utd players and SAF deserve more credit?

Post by L r dd on Wed Mar 04, 2009 12:47 am

Super Madrid wrote:
Cirque du Barcelona wrote:
borocooper wrote:I dont think the fact that having some foreigners in your squad improves things is big news to be fair.

Depends on the foriegners. But that's not the point. lrd said that when ALL the teams in Europe had only 3 foreign players (meaning more domestic players in the team) Man United (an english team) had a disadvantage (it was more difficult for them) => italians, spanish, etc. players where better then the english ones. Is my logic not good?
I can only speak for when I have followed football but I think most people in general believe that italian and spanish players are better then english. Don't know why that would be such a surprise really.

Lrd's point doesn't make much sense either because if im not mistaken then english clubs managed to win the Cl aswell before with this rule didn't they?

With all of this said the fact about SAF never doing more in CL is a big drawback. Especially when you consider the experience his teams should have gotten.

How does my points not make sense. When Fergie took over Man Utd no English team won the cl until he did in 99. The teams were banned until 91. I am not sure when this rule came in place but i searched to see when but all i found was this

''1992 to 1996 — Italian consistency

English clubs made their return to the European Cup in 1991, following a successful return in the other competitions the previous year. However, their exploits were unsuccessful during the five years after their return, being hampered by the strict "three foreigner" rule, and the trophy stayed with continental clubs.''

I am not sure if Spanish clubs found ways around it due to the citizenship they could sometimes do. English players maybe were not as good. Turkish teams for example or swedish would also be able to compete better as they had usually a full swedish or turkish side, when Man Utd for example would have to drop two first team players. When the English players did come through more they were too young and inexperienced to really win the cl, and then the rule was taken away.

I don't see how my point doesn't make sense
avatar
Deluded F*ck™

Number of posts : 21764
Age : 31
Supports : The Lilywhites from N17
Favourite Player : The Hurrikane - he's on of our own!
Registration date : 2006-08-07

Re: Do the Man Utd players and SAF deserve more credit?

Post by Deluded F*ck™ on Wed Mar 04, 2009 12:57 am

Football Genius wrote:I believe you miss the economics of the era, which can to a certain extent be understood with todays economics.

The dutch players were VERY good.... however also very young, delivering at the highest level made them hot property, Ajaxs inability to keep them further to this European triumph only emphasises the fact the core youth of dutch players could not sustain or achieve what they wanted to in the dutch team.

Do not forget the wonderful blend of young awsome talent and experience...

Its a shame this team could not stay together longer, however the divide in ambition and situation proved to pro-long further than their Ajax careers, and infact affected what could... should have been a highlight for the Dutch national team.

It's a moot point in truth. Holland really should've won the '98 world Cup, possibly Euro 2000 as well. I believe they were every bit as good as France in that period.
avatar
Batman

Number of posts : 9071
Age : 34
Registration date : 2006-08-07

Re: Do the Man Utd players and SAF deserve more credit?

Post by Batman on Tue May 05, 2009 10:01 pm



<Ale>
avatar
Jaime

Number of posts : 32027
Age : 38
Supports : Real Madrid CF
Favourite Player : Butragueño, Redondo, Raúl, Guti, Casillas, Sergio Ramos, Isco, Carvajal
Registration date : 2006-08-08

Re: Do the Man Utd players and SAF deserve more credit?

Post by Jaime on Tue May 05, 2009 10:03 pm



Ale

Parks lives

Number of posts : 34521
Age : 36
Favourite Player : The Ginger One
Registration date : 2006-08-06

Re: Do the Man Utd players and SAF deserve more credit?

Post by Parks lives on Tue May 05, 2009 10:05 pm

Well a few people on here said we weren't even among the favourites at the start of the CL, so we've done really well to get to the final. Razz

So to the original question, yes. ok
avatar
COTR

Number of posts : 26580
Age : 33
Supports : Liverp8-0l
Favourite Player : Xabier Alonso, Fabio Aurelio, Daniel Agger, Pepe Reina, Alberto Aquilani, Elano, Luis Suarez, Glen Johnson
Registration date : 2006-08-06

Re: Do the Man Utd players and SAF deserve more credit?

Post by COTR on Tue May 05, 2009 10:06 pm

Batman wrote:

<Ale>

Laugh


This is too much Batman


Batman wrote:

i thought he got the tactics wrong.

Arsenal were all over his then we score because of an Arsenal mistake and then the Arsenal players bottled it.



Self - Pwnage
avatar
Jaime

Number of posts : 32027
Age : 38
Supports : Real Madrid CF
Favourite Player : Butragueño, Redondo, Raúl, Guti, Casillas, Sergio Ramos, Isco, Carvajal
Registration date : 2006-08-08

Re: Do the Man Utd players and SAF deserve more credit?

Post by Jaime on Tue May 05, 2009 10:06 pm

COTR! cheers
avatar
COTR

Number of posts : 26580
Age : 33
Supports : Liverp8-0l
Favourite Player : Xabier Alonso, Fabio Aurelio, Daniel Agger, Pepe Reina, Alberto Aquilani, Elano, Luis Suarez, Glen Johnson
Registration date : 2006-08-06

Re: Do the Man Utd players and SAF deserve more credit?

Post by COTR on Tue May 05, 2009 10:07 pm

Parks lives wrote:Well a few people on here said we weren't even among the favourites at the start of the CL, so we've done really well to get to the final. Razz

So to the original question, yes. ok

You certainly became favourites when the quarter and semi final draw came out spank avoiding all three strong teams
avatar
Chocolate Thunder

Number of posts : 15804
Age : 29
Supports : Borussia Dortmund and Liverpool
Registration date : 2007-01-06

Re: Do the Man Utd players and SAF deserve more credit?

Post by Chocolate Thunder on Tue May 05, 2009 10:09 pm

COTR Ale
avatar
COTR

Number of posts : 26580
Age : 33
Supports : Liverp8-0l
Favourite Player : Xabier Alonso, Fabio Aurelio, Daniel Agger, Pepe Reina, Alberto Aquilani, Elano, Luis Suarez, Glen Johnson
Registration date : 2006-08-06

Re: Do the Man Utd players and SAF deserve more credit?

Post by COTR on Tue May 05, 2009 10:10 pm

Batman Ale
avatar
Chocolate Thunder

Number of posts : 15804
Age : 29
Supports : Borussia Dortmund and Liverpool
Registration date : 2007-01-06

Re: Do the Man Utd players and SAF deserve more credit?

Post by Chocolate Thunder on Tue May 05, 2009 10:12 pm

Touché Ale
avatar
TM

Number of posts : 21218
Age : 27
Supports : PROGRESS!
Favourite Player : Luis Figo
Registration date : 2006-08-16

Re: Do the Man Utd players and SAF deserve more credit?

Post by TM on Tue May 05, 2009 10:13 pm

COTR Ale
avatar
Six

Number of posts : 4390
Supports : Liverpool
Registration date : 2009-01-14

Re: Do the Man Utd players and SAF deserve more credit?

Post by Six on Tue May 05, 2009 10:15 pm

COTR deserves more credit. <Ale>
avatar
Batman

Number of posts : 9071
Age : 34
Registration date : 2006-08-07

Re: Do the Man Utd players and SAF deserve more credit?

Post by Batman on Tue May 05, 2009 10:16 pm

COTR wrote:
Batman wrote:

<Ale>

Laugh


This is too much Batman


Batman wrote:

i thought he got the tactics wrong.

Arsenal were all over his then we score because of an Arsenal mistake and then the Arsenal players bottled it.



Self - Pwnage

SAF > Batman

i don't mind getting owned by SAF cheers

Sponsored content

Re: Do the Man Utd players and SAF deserve more credit?

Post by Sponsored content


    Current date/time is Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:51 am