JDT: Barcelona Coach Pep Guardiola Isn’t That Good

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Super Progress

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JDT: Barcelona Coach Pep Guardiola Isn’t That Good

Post by Super Progress on Sat Jan 30, 2010 1:04 am

Feyenoord Striker Jon Dahl Tomasson: Barcelona Coach Pep Guardiola Isn’t That Good

The Dane has cast his eye over the coaching world, calling into question Guardiola’s ability at Barca...

Jon Dahl Tomasson may still be a regular in the Feyenoord side, but he knows that he wants to coach in the future and has clear ideas about the role of a trainer, suggesting that Barcelona boss Pep Guardiola may not be all he is cracked up to be.

Asked for his opinions on coaching, he indicated that he feels that a good coach will have a more profound effect on a weaker side.

“It depends on how much quality you have in your team,” he said to his club's official website when asked how important a trainer is. “Look at Barcelona, so many good players play there. Whether you or me were to take charge of the group, it might not make much difference.”

Not shy of expressing his opinion, he feels that his frank attitude could come in handy should he move into the training game. “It must appear natural,” he said. “Communication and honesty are most important to me for a coach. If you can coach a team to get through the fire, then you have done well.”

Feyenoord are presently well off the pace in fourth in the Eredivisie and are due to face Ajax on Sunday.
What a legend eh Fey Ale

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Re: JDT: Barcelona Coach Pep Guardiola Isn’t That Good

Post by Guest on Sat Jan 30, 2010 3:00 am

Super Solari wrote:
Feyenoord Striker Jon Dahl Tomasson: Barcelona Coach Pep Guardiola Isn’t That Good

The Dane has cast his eye over the coaching world, calling into question Guardiola’s ability at Barca...

Jon Dahl Tomasson may still be a regular in the Feyenoord side, but he knows that he wants to coach in the future and has clear ideas about the role of a trainer, suggesting that Barcelona boss Pep Guardiola may not be all he is cracked up to be.

Asked for his opinions on coaching, he indicated that he feels that a good coach will have a more profound effect on a weaker side.

“It depends on how much quality you have in your team,” he said to his club's official website when asked how important a trainer is. “Look at Barcelona, so many good players play there. Whether you or me were to take charge of the group, it might not make much difference.”

Not shy of expressing his opinion, he feels that his frank attitude could come in handy should he move into the training game. “It must appear natural,” he said. “Communication and honesty are most important to me for a coach. If you can coach a team to get through the fire, then you have done well.”

Feyenoord are presently well off the pace in fourth in the Eredivisie and are due to face Ajax on Sunday.
What a legend eh Fey Ale



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DD

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Re: JDT: Barcelona Coach Pep Guardiola Isn’t That Good

Post by DD on Sat Jan 30, 2010 10:12 am

While he may be exagerating, I don't consider it that strange of a view.
Pep has achieved the maximum in his first year at Barca, but he inherited an almost complete balanced winning squad, some of the tactical blueprint, and having Messi finally peak (burnt-out Dinho was gone). It wasn't as if they needed a tactical genius or someone like Karl Bruckner, nor was the club close to anything resembling turmoil.
Let's face it, if you'd put a chicken in charge, give him the title of manager and let the team roll out every weekend tactically clueless, that team would still struggle to finish below 4th. The individuals in place were that good, the tactical/positional template was already set and the gap in quality with most other teams in the league was that great.

Of course he's a legend now, but what the fuck has Pep really done? He's mostly there to preserve cohesion of the players and keep most egos in check. The same as most of the big club managers, and the same job as Rijkaard. As of now three things count against Pep for me though, which people tend to gloss over: 1) he inherited the best squad in the world, one of the most balanced and deep in quality. 2) They weren't in any kind of struggle whatsoever. 3) he didn't really introduce anything new or of his own (dinho needed replacement anyway, and he had to pick from the gifted midfield midgets in squad, difficult that)
It's easy to take over from a set template and another to change things around when the club is really struggling. He'd have proven in one year much more (for me) if he happened to do the latter, which shows some tinkering of his own and more difficult decision making, rather than winning all cups in the first year.

I'm not hating on Barca or Pep, and since I'm Dutch I probably need to say I'm not defending Rijkaard Rolling Eyes (ffs its Rijkaard). I do think though that Rijkaard has proven a bit more during his tenure than Pep at Barca. If Pep can keep this up over a few years (not 6 cups every year but getting deep in the CL and winning most la liga titles), his accolades would be fully deserved without doubt, rather than only looking like the guy who was at the right place at the right time.
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Re: JDT: Barcelona Coach Pep Guardiola Isn’t That Good

Post by Kroos on Sat Jan 30, 2010 11:46 am

hes right

barcas quality helps alot

pep would fail at any other club, i have no doubt about that
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Re: JDT: Barcelona Coach Pep Guardiola Isn’t That Good

Post by abundance on Sat Jan 30, 2010 12:12 pm

There's a famous quote, can't remember who said it, that goes "no matter what they think of themselves, 90% of a coach's job is just about not ruining things".

Putting it this way, there's much more to ruin at Barca than at some weak underdog side.

Of course recognition is quite different, act sensibly at Barca and you may end up with epic wins and the whole world gives you magazines covers, act sensibly at some small side and you may end up with a 9th place that is noticed only by your supporters and a small bunch of aficionados.
On the other hand, try losing two games in a row at a very big side and see what the press do of your image.


The point in judging Guardiola competence is not about that managing Barca is easy, it's about the fact that he only coached for one season.
To say something meaningful about the real value of a coach you'd have to wait for a dozen of seasons, when he would have been through different gigs and many ups and downs. And even then, you couldn't really be certain of what share of his success is attributable to coincidences, luck, players, and what to his competence.
That is true whatever the size of the clubs he's managed.


Speaking of Guardiola, I do think he's good and can stand up to his initial success in his career, but that's mostly because he's always looked like to possess the good coach traits even as a player - ie, the stereotypical "coach on the field type", humble and thoughful but authoritative and straightforward.

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Re: JDT: Barcelona Coach Pep Guardiola Isn’t That Good

Post by Guest on Sat Jan 30, 2010 1:45 pm

So i guess we should take away all the credit from all the top coaches that won things, while having a team with WC players.

Guess that means Otto is probably the best coach in the world, and every club should be running him down for his signature.

How many coaches in modern football have introduced something truly game changing, my answer would be none, yet some say pep didn't come up with anything new.

Neither has most managers over the past decade, they have just at most tweaked, a formation or idea from older generations of managers.

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Re: JDT: Barcelona Coach Pep Guardiola Isn’t That Good

Post by Guest on Sat Jan 30, 2010 1:48 pm


JDT, is like some teen who sees, the Navy seals on TV and think Ho, thats easy and can shoot guns and kills bad guys too, without actually taking into consideration, that though they have the best equipment money can buy, their is a whole lot of work that they put in, so he joins the Navy Seals and epic fails within a week.
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Re: JDT: Barcelona Coach Pep Guardiola Isn’t That Good

Post by TM on Sat Jan 30, 2010 1:49 pm

JDT Ale
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Kimbo

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Re: JDT: Barcelona Coach Pep Guardiola Isn’t That Good

Post by Kimbo on Sat Jan 30, 2010 1:51 pm

JT has a point.
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Re: JDT: Barcelona Coach Pep Guardiola Isn’t That Good

Post by Luis on Sat Jan 30, 2010 2:06 pm

Absolute rubbish. There's no bigger testament to Pep than the way Barca have played this season, unbeaten in the League, 5 points clear of Madrid. They could easily have taken their eye off the prize after winning La Liga and the CL last season but are playing better than ever.
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Re: JDT: Barcelona Coach Pep Guardiola Isn’t That Good

Post by TM on Sat Jan 30, 2010 2:14 pm

Luis wrote:Absolute rubbish. There's no bigger testament to Pep than the way Barca have played this season, unbeaten in the League, 5 points clear of Madrid. They could easily have taken their eye off the prize after winning La Liga and the CL last season but are playing better than ever.

Hmmm, not so sure about this. At the start of the season they were "iffy", recently they've been playing well. But I still think the football they played last year is better.
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Re: JDT: Barcelona Coach Pep Guardiola Isn’t That Good

Post by Romford Pele on Sat Jan 30, 2010 2:20 pm

He does have a point tbh though Ale
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Re: JDT: Barcelona Coach Pep Guardiola Isn’t That Good

Post by robert on Sat Jan 30, 2010 2:52 pm

That's a bullshit assessment. Yes Pep inherited a good squad and yes a few factors went his way but that happens to ALL great coaches.

All factors have to fall in place for xyz to happen.

Would Fergurson have survived managed at utd had he picked up the job some 4 or 5 years earlier during the height of Liverpool's domination?

Would Mourinho have had his reputation had Scholes' wrong offside goal stood?

No manager manages in a vacuum and to attribute his success to his circumstances solely is stupid.
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Re: JDT: Barcelona Coach Pep Guardiola Isn’t That Good

Post by Fey on Sat Jan 30, 2010 5:46 pm

Good point by JdT indeed, but its more important he gets me 3 points tomorrow!
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Re: JDT: Barcelona Coach Pep Guardiola Isn’t That Good

Post by Effenberg on Sat Jan 30, 2010 6:11 pm

It's the same nonsense discussion as with Phil Jackson in the NBA. There, the fact is that Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen, Shaq and Kobe never did win a title until Jackson took over and made them believe in team ball.

Every championship team in any sport has some excellent players and some excellent role players. The coach has to bring it all together. It's not just tactics either, but also keeping everybody focused on and working toward the same goals. Pep has been absolutely outstanding so far.

Of course, the problem in places like Madrid, Barca, Bayern, etc. is that there is no room for mistakes. Everything is blown out of proportion, which is why I see him taking a break from managing after next season. The stress and pressure there is just too much, especially if you've already won everything and nothing short of near perfection will do.
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Re: JDT: Barcelona Coach Pep Guardiola Isn’t That Good

Post by Pras_tama on Sat Jan 30, 2010 11:39 pm

Effenberg wrote:It's the same nonsense discussion as with Phil Jackson in the NBA. There, the fact is that Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen, Shaq and Kobe never did win a title until Jackson took over and made them believe in team ball.

Every championship team in any sport has some excellent players and some excellent role players. The coach has to bring it all together. It's not just tactics either, but also keeping everybody focused on and working toward the same goals. Pep has been absolutely outstanding so far.

Of course, the problem in places like Madrid, Barca, Bayern, etc. is that there is no room for mistakes. Everything is blown out of proportion, which is why I see him taking a break from managing after next season. The stress and pressure there is just too much, especially if you've already won everything and nothing short of near perfection will do.

<Ale>

This is the post to answer JDT hesitation
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Re: JDT: Barcelona Coach Pep Guardiola Isn’t That Good

Post by fcb on Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:37 am

Several good posts in this thread, most of which raise good points that I agree with. No doubt Tomasson is just exaggerating to gain some attention.


Pep definitely got lucky with the quality of squad he had at his disposal, but don't forget some of the key signings like Alves were bought in the summer that he took over. So he was probably part of the discussions there. He's also added to the squad by selecting and promoting youngsters that otherwise would have been nowhere...FYI, Pedro was on his way out of the club this summer as the scouts didn't rate him.


Of course, the key thing is he got this quality squad playing together and for each other again, eliminating the poisonous atmosphere of the last season. He also was ruthless enough to get rid of Ronaldinho and Deco (though that was also partly the club's decision). Turned Henry around with some individual man-management (took him for a one-on-one dinner at the start of the season, etc.).


It may seem obvious that you could put a mediocre manager in charge of this squad and they'd still easily get 4th and maybe more, but as Effenberg says, that's not good enough for Barça. Suddenly everyone would be saying: "hang on, these Xavi, Iniesta, Etoo, Pique guys aren't really that special. They're just the 4th best team in Spain FFS" etc.


He did not overhaul the tactics (but then, which manager at Barça really has done since the Cruyff style was implemented at the club? ) but added a new level of work rate, and several tweaks in different match situations that proved to be matchwinning. Messi as the withdrawn striker in the CL final anyone? Also, he introduced some new setpiece routines that gave several crucial goals during the season. Under Rijkaard we were a joke from corners...never scored.


As I said above, he also rejuvenated the atmosphere in the club after Rijkaard's last year. Rijkaard of course did a much bigger job in this aspect because he came with a totally new presidential project.


One key aspect which isn't obvious to most people is that he revamped the fitness training and monitoring, bringing in his own team and asking for better equipment. How many injuries has Messi had in the last 1.5 seasons? Exactly.


Also has brought in his own guys to do a lot more work with analysing opponents by video, in line with most modern coaches. It was reported that on the flight back from the league game against Tenerife, he already started preparing for the Copa del Rey 2nd leg by watching videos of Sevilla!


Pep would definitely not achieve the same success at another club so soon, because he fits Barça uniquely thanks to his knowledge of the club's history, fans, how to handle the press, etc. Accordingly he can motivate the players. Some qualities like his immense attention to detail, and love for playing youngsters, can be translated to other clubs easily, but of course his background as a Barça playing legend helped him settle in quickly here.

It gives him authority with the players too, because they know there's a lot more to win before they can match his career, and that he's been there, done that and knows what they're going through as professional footballers. So he can man-manage better.


I don't think he'd be a failure at "any other club in the world". I can see him doing well in Italy (he's played there), but not England.


I do agree that a true rating of Pep's abilities as manager can only be done after he's had a career of many years, and shows how he handles the downs and whether he can rebuild a squad or not. The question is whether he wants to do it, or move into a director role soon.

In summary, I wouldn't call him the top manager in the world. Maybe only top 5 or top 10. But for Barça, he's definitely turned out to be the best manager available.



Edit: there are a few weaknesses of his that I forgot to mention:

1. His poor record at transfers: he's asked for the likes of Hleb, Caceres, etc. Ibrahimovic and Chygrinskiy too, but although they're good players the price tags are ridiculous.

2. His reluctance to use the full squad regularly...of course there are arguments for and against rotation, but I think Pep leans a bit too much on his preferred 14/15 players.

3. The team seems to always start a bit slowly in big games. Not sure why that is, but so far it doesn't really matter since eventually they end up winning anyway.


Last edited by kas on Sun Jan 31, 2010 10:09 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: JDT: Barcelona Coach Pep Guardiola Isn’t That Good

Post by Pras_tama on Sun Jan 31, 2010 9:59 am

Don't forget, Pep is a new man in this business
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Re: JDT: Barcelona Coach Pep Guardiola Isn’t That Good

Post by Deluded F*ck™ on Tue Nov 30, 2010 11:46 am

Conclusion: Dude can coach Ale

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Re: JDT: Barcelona Coach Pep Guardiola Isn’t That Good

Post by Guest on Tue Nov 30, 2010 12:17 pm

Super,Super,Super
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Re: JDT: Barcelona Coach Pep Guardiola Isn’t That Good

Post by Lordanger on Tue Nov 30, 2010 12:20 pm

the sourest grapes are being bottled today. 350M a bottle.
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Pierre Littbarski

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Re: JDT: Barcelona Coach Pep Guardiola Isn’t That Good

Post by Pierre Littbarski on Tue Nov 30, 2010 6:21 pm

Deluded F*ck™ wrote:Conclusion: DudeXavi and Iniesta can coachplay Ale
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Re: JDT: Barcelona Coach Pep Guardiola Isn’t That Good

Post by christmasborocooper on Tue Nov 30, 2010 6:31 pm

Yeah to be fair, would be nice to see what he can do when he doesnt inherit one of the best teams ever..

He's obviously done brilliantly, but I reckon I could've done a pretty good job with Xavi, Iniesta, Messi etc
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Re: JDT: Barcelona Coach Pep Guardiola Isn’t That Good

Post by Super Progress on Tue Nov 30, 2010 7:56 pm

borocooper wrote:Yeah to be fair, would be nice to see what he can do when he doesnt inherit one of the best teams ever..

He's obviously done brilliantly, but I reckon I could've done a pretty good job with Xavi, Iniesta, Messi etc
ok
Which is exactly the point of the thread and what JDT was saying anyway. Any result Guardiola might have with the same team doesn't suddenly invalidate that point.

Laudrup Ale
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Re: JDT: Barcelona Coach Pep Guardiola Isn’t That Good

Post by fcb on Wed Dec 01, 2010 7:06 am

Yeah, even as a Barça fan I wouldn't call Pep the best manager in the world. Best for Barça, yes. But not universally the best...he has to prove himself in different scenarios for that to happen.
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Re: JDT: Barcelona Coach Pep Guardiola Isn’t That Good

Post by S4P on Wed Dec 01, 2010 6:50 pm

Sure he inherited an incredible squad, but what more could he have done? Won back-to-back Champions Leagues in his first 2 seasons? They weren't too far from achieving that.
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Re: JDT: Barcelona Coach Pep Guardiola Isn’t That Good

Post by Pierre Littbarski on Wed Dec 01, 2010 7:18 pm

Would he be able to get Droylsden a replay with Orient though Question

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Re: JDT: Barcelona Coach Pep Guardiola Isn’t That Good

Post by Guest on Wed Dec 01, 2010 11:55 pm

so who is the best, not saying its pep, but who

jose who always spends millions on each of his teams and always has arguable the best squad in each league he has played in. is that not held against him.

SAF, who has had years to build man utd and again always has the best player in his league or something lose to it.( who be him for me)

Del bosque, who has most of the same players pep has at his disposal.

Who..

at the end of the day he has beaten most top managers that he has coached against while at barca and has managed to make this special set of players do incredible things on the football pitch.
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Re: JDT: Barcelona Coach Pep Guardiola Isn’t That Good

Post by King Modric on Thu Dec 02, 2010 6:27 am

Who spent so much money on Ibra that it allowed Inter to buy the players to kick them out of the CL? Whose team outspent Mou's Inter last year but lost to them in the semis? Who had so much money to spend that he could waste 25M on Chygrynskiy?

I'm not saying its Pep, but who?

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Re: JDT: Barcelona Coach Pep Guardiola Isn’t That Good

Post by 110% on Thu Dec 02, 2010 8:17 am

Managers have different strengths, so you cannot easily say who is the best, without saying who is the best at what, e.g motivating players (Mourinho?), bullying refs (Ferguson?), tactics (Benitez?), doing nothing and just letting the team you inherited play (I'm not saying it's Pep, but who?)

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