A lesson about football (for Super De La Red & Pierre)

Share
avatar
fcb

Number of posts : 40471
Age : 106
Supports : FC Barcelona
Registration date : 2006-08-11

A lesson about football (for Super De La Red & Pierre)

Post by fcb on Tue Apr 06, 2010 7:09 am

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/timvickery/2010/04/vickery_14.html


Messi - the devastating decoy

Tim Vickery | 07:37 UK time, Monday, 5 April 2010

Reading Phil McNulty's blog after the Arsenal-Barcelona game, I was struck by the number of people who went out of their way to criticise the performance of Lionel Messi.

It is indicative of the enormous pressure the young Argentine will be under in the World Cup - the same pressure that broke his friend and former Barca team-mate Ronaldinho four years ago.

People are expecting circus tricks and something special in every game. It is the dilemma of the big name star in today's football.

The overkill of the marketing industry means that there is more focus than ever before on the top individuals - at a time when the physical and tactical development of the game makes football more collective than ever before.


Back in the 1950s, when sides played the WM system, football was essentially a collection of one against one duels - the right-back against the left-winger, the left-back against the right-winger, the centre-back against the centre-forward, and so on.

The great Hungarian side of the mid-50s rendered this obsolete. Their centre-forward dropped deep, leaving the centre-half in no man's land, and two attacking midfielders rushed in for the kill. Players became important not only in terms of the space they occupied, but also because of the space where their dynamism could take them.

The Brazilians found a way to protect themselves against this threat - the back four, with its key concept of extra defensive cover. But withdrawing an extra man to the back line left the midfield duo with acres around them, a problem spotted by left-winger Mario Zagallo, who funnelled back to help.

As the French coach Aime Jacquet said decades later, Zagallo taught the world that a player can have two shirts - that of attacker and defender.

Zagallo was fundamental to the World Cup wins of '58 and '62 and four years later England had a Zagallo on either flank, with Martin Peters and Alan Ball carrying out the double function. And so was born 4-4-2, probably the most successful system in the history of the game.

It was a key moment on the way to the revolutionary Holland side of 1974, with its clear intention of having as many players as possible involved in the play at any given moment, either in trying to win the ball back, or in giving options to the man on the ball.
The whole team - even the goalkeeper - had two shirts. It was the football of participation.

According to Brazil's physical preparation specialists, at the time of that great Dutch side, players were running 5,000 metres per game. By the mid 90s this had doubled, and now some players are covering 13,000.

Obviously, this leaves less space on the field for the star player to show his stuff. Instead of the previous succession of isolated one against duels, the game now is a permanent dispute of 11 against 11, where teams fight to create space for their talented players.

Mario Zagallo scores during the 1958 World Cup finalMario Zagallo, scoring during the 1958 World Cup final, filled a vital dual role for Brazil - pic: Getty

Now, more than ever, the rule applies that the stars appear when the balance of the team is correct. It is impossible to judge the contribution of the gifted individual without reference to how he fits in to the collective context.

But in today's climate this elemental truth can be hidden. With all the individual endorsement deals, FIFA World Player of the Year awards and so on, it can be easy to lose sight of the fact that football is a team game.

A player's performance, though, should not be judged on how many stepovers he performed, but by how his display contributed to the team's objective.

Lionel Messi against Arsenal is an illustration. The little man had a profound effect on the game. He wants the ball played to his feet and the opposition are justifiably terrified by the prospect of him turning and spinning into one of his dribbles, and so they try to crowd him out.

The centre-back on that side of the field is concerned with pushing up and denying him space, which means that if Ibrahimovic can spin off the other centre back he is through on goal. There is no cover. The mere presence of Messi has negated the key advantage of the back four formation.


On the evidence of last month's 1-0 win away to Germany, Argentina have also worked out how to use Messi as a decoy. He drags the opposing defence over to the right, creating space for Angel Di Maria to fly down the other flank.

This is something that national team coach Diego Maradona understands well. In his finest hour, the 1986 World Cup, he took out England and Belgium single handedly on the way to the final, where he met the full force of the German marking.

What did he do? He dragged his markers all over the field and provided passes for his team-mates, like the one from which Jorge Burruchaga scored the winning goal. It was superb individual talent placed at the service of the collective - and that is the mark of the truly great player.

ok

As I've posted in one of my recent "essays", if he doesn't have a visible impact on the game in terms of goals or assists, it doesn't mean he "disappeared". His mere presence on the field has forced the opposition to f@ck up their defensive balance.

Perhaps we notice this more when Barça play English sides because they are better prepared tactically than your average Spanish league team, for example, and focus on Messi. But the match still (sometimes Wink ) ends up with a positive result for Barça, because other players in the team are freed up to hurt the opposition.
avatar
Fade out

Number of posts : 6128
Age : 53
Favourite Player : Baggio (he outshone Zidane when played together at Juve)
Registration date : 2008-07-06

Re: A lesson about football (for Super De La Red & Pierre)

Post by Fade out on Tue Apr 06, 2010 7:16 am

So Messi will now get credit for extra manmarking and stupid defending?!

L r dd

Number of posts : 12451
Age : 30
Registration date : 2008-12-22

Re: A lesson about football (for Super De La Red & Pierre)

Post by L r dd on Tue Apr 06, 2010 7:24 am

What a load of bollocks. Arsenal didn't defend shite. They were open Messi was left free how he missed 3 good chances ffs. And against Chelsea Iniesta's goal was the only chance. At the nou camp it was 0-0. Against United in the semi final Barca didn't score in either leg. So your positive result thing doesn't quite add up.
avatar
Fade out

Number of posts : 6128
Age : 53
Favourite Player : Baggio (he outshone Zidane when played together at Juve)
Registration date : 2008-07-06

Re: A lesson about football (for Super De La Red & Pierre)

Post by Fade out on Tue Apr 06, 2010 7:27 am

By default, the best attacking players, be it ronaldo, messi, kaka (by reputation perhaps atm), villa, silva, robben, ribery, rooney, fabregas, drogba, etc always draw extra players to them, and act as decoy or what have you?! But they aren't sure as shit hyped ! Doh

L r dd

Number of posts : 12451
Age : 30
Registration date : 2008-12-22

Re: A lesson about football (for Super De La Red & Pierre)

Post by L r dd on Tue Apr 06, 2010 7:33 am

If Messi is good = Messi is great amazing out of this world
If Messi is great = Best ever seen
If Messi is shite and Barca do well = Because everyone was focused on Messi he still done a job
If Messi is shite and Barca do bad = The team let Messi down he couldn't do it all on his own

Kas and Tim Vickery need to get off Messi's funsize cock because it's making me sick.
avatar
Fade out

Number of posts : 6128
Age : 53
Favourite Player : Baggio (he outshone Zidane when played together at Juve)
Registration date : 2008-07-06

Re: A lesson about football (for Super De La Red & Pierre)

Post by Fade out on Tue Apr 06, 2010 7:34 am

L r dd wrote:If Messi is good = Messi is great amazing out of this world
If Messi is great = Best ever seen
If Messi is shite and Barca do well = Because everyone was focused on Messi he still done a job
If Messi is shite and Barca do bad = The team let Messi down he couldn't do it all on his own

Kas and Tim Vickery need to get off Messi's funsize cock because it's making me sick.

Ale
avatar
fcb

Number of posts : 40471
Age : 106
Supports : FC Barcelona
Registration date : 2006-08-11

Re: A lesson about football (for Super De La Red & Pierre)

Post by fcb on Tue Apr 06, 2010 7:47 am

Predictable backlash cheers
avatar
Fade out

Number of posts : 6128
Age : 53
Favourite Player : Baggio (he outshone Zidane when played together at Juve)
Registration date : 2008-07-06

Re: A lesson about football (for Super De La Red & Pierre)

Post by Fade out on Tue Apr 06, 2010 8:02 am

kas wrote:Predictable

So is the attempts of winding up with such a bombastic title, "lesson about football", for such a routine and fairly rudimentary aspect of the game ! Laughing
avatar
fcb

Number of posts : 40471
Age : 106
Supports : FC Barcelona
Registration date : 2006-08-11

Re: A lesson about football (for Super De La Red & Pierre)

Post by fcb on Tue Apr 06, 2010 8:23 am

Well that's the point, it was meant to be a bit extreme considering the extreme explanations those two posters (among others) come up with to try and portray the message "Oh look at us, we're so unique, we don't go along with this Messi hype...I'm telling you, this Messi is nothing special", etc.

As always, reality is somewhere in between.
avatar
DD

Number of posts : 10721
Age : 37
Supports : NEC
Registration date : 2006-08-07

Re: A lesson about football (for Super De La Red & Pierre)

Post by DD on Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:01 am

L r dd wrote:If Messi is good = Messi is great amazing out of this world
If Messi is great = Best ever seen
If Messi is shite and Barca do well = Because everyone was focused on Messi he still done a job
If Messi is shite and Barca do bad = The team let Messi down he couldn't do it all on his own

Kas and Tim Vickery need to get off Messi's funsize cock because it's making me sick.
Agreeing with Lrd Shocked

Though Messi is very very good and the best player in the world at the moment.
avatar
Barrilete

Number of posts : 2336
Age : 30
Supports : Club Atlético Boca Juniors
Favourite Player : Maxi Lopez, aka, TWD (The White Drogba)
Registration date : 2006-08-07

Re: A lesson about football (for Super De La Red & Pierre)

Post by Barrilete on Tue Apr 06, 2010 12:53 pm

there's far too much sport journalism in this world
avatar
Super Progress

Number of posts : 15428
Age : 28
Supports : Real Madrid + Mierda inchada en un palo
Favourite Player : Laudrup,Cassano,Totti, Zidane,Marcelo, Pepe!,Guti, PROGRESS
Registration date : 2006-08-07

Re: A lesson about football (for Super De La Red & Pierre)

Post by Super Progress on Tue Apr 06, 2010 3:43 pm

lol!
Well done Kas I got:

avatar
Pierre Littbarski

Number of posts : 12424
Age : 107
Registration date : 2006-08-07

Re: A lesson about football (for Super De La Red & Pierre)

Post by Pierre Littbarski on Tue Apr 06, 2010 6:29 pm

I think he's a very good journalist but I'd already read the article and wasn't impressed.

I'm not saying he isn't right in principle - I just don't think it is particularly relevant to Messi's no show at The Emirates.

MightyBarca

Number of posts : 860
Age : 29
Supports : Fc Barcelona
Favourite Player : Rivaldo, Messi, Iniesta, Arshavin
Registration date : 2007-03-16

Re: A lesson about football (for Super De La Red & Pierre)

Post by MightyBarca on Tue Apr 06, 2010 11:11 pm

39 fucking goals this season Pierre.

L r dd

Number of posts : 12451
Age : 30
Registration date : 2008-12-22

Re: A lesson about football (for Super De La Red & Pierre)

Post by L r dd on Tue Apr 06, 2010 11:12 pm

MightyBarca wrote:39 fucking goals this season Pierre.

How many against English oppisition that wasnt Arsenal?
avatar
TITO

Number of posts : 3155
Age : 42
Registration date : 2006-08-07

Re: A lesson about football (for Super De La Red & Pierre)

Post by TITO on Tue Apr 06, 2010 11:15 pm

Enough to get us the third CL trophy.
Satisfied?

Guest
Guest

Re: A lesson about football (for Super De La Red & Pierre)

Post by Guest on Tue Apr 06, 2010 11:18 pm

L r dd wrote:
MightyBarca wrote:39 fucking goals this season Pierre.

How many against English oppisition that wasnt Arsenal?

How many english teams did he score against that wasn't arsenal

where was ronaldo when real needed him in the CL?

L r dd

Number of posts : 12451
Age : 30
Registration date : 2008-12-22

Re: A lesson about football (for Super De La Red & Pierre)

Post by L r dd on Tue Apr 06, 2010 11:22 pm

Watching his mate miss two open goals after he himself put Madrid 1-0 up giving them the dream start. If you put Messi in the premiership it'll be Robinho pt 2..and he'll be playing for Boca before you can say dwarf.

MightyBarca

Number of posts : 860
Age : 29
Supports : Fc Barcelona
Favourite Player : Rivaldo, Messi, Iniesta, Arshavin
Registration date : 2007-03-16

Re: A lesson about football (for Super De La Red & Pierre)

Post by MightyBarca on Tue Apr 06, 2010 11:26 pm

Lrd how many goals has rooney scored against Spanish teams? Case close dickface!!!! You just bitter the best player in the world is messi not ronaldo or Rooney :-)

L r dd

Number of posts : 12451
Age : 30
Registration date : 2008-12-22

Re: A lesson about football (for Super De La Red & Pierre)

Post by L r dd on Tue Apr 06, 2010 11:28 pm

Not in my opinion. Ronaldo destroyed Arsenal last season semi final...rooney did it a few months ago in the league tonight messi did the same thing. What's the difference here? They all are similar quality. On the weekend we'll see who comes out on top Messi or Cristiano Ale

MightyBarca

Number of posts : 860
Age : 29
Supports : Fc Barcelona
Favourite Player : Rivaldo, Messi, Iniesta, Arshavin
Registration date : 2007-03-16

Re: A lesson about football (for Super De La Red & Pierre)

Post by MightyBarca on Tue Apr 06, 2010 11:33 pm

L r dd wrote:Not in my opinion. Ronaldo destroyed Arsenal last season semi final...rooney did it a few months ago in the league tonight messi did the same thing. What's the difference here? They all are similar quality. On the weekend we'll see who comes out on top Messi or Cristiano Ale



Did any of them score 4 goals against arsenal?? Face facts lerd messi is the best player in the world! And you didn't answer my question how many goals has Rooney scored against spanish teams?

L r dd

Number of posts : 12451
Age : 30
Registration date : 2008-12-22

Re: A lesson about football (for Super De La Red & Pierre)

Post by L r dd on Tue Apr 06, 2010 11:36 pm

4 goals 2 goals no difference they all were great and won the team the game. Rooney and Ronaldo were against their best defence...not silvestre ffs.

MightyBarca

Number of posts : 860
Age : 29
Supports : Fc Barcelona
Favourite Player : Rivaldo, Messi, Iniesta, Arshavin
Registration date : 2007-03-16

Re: A lesson about football (for Super De La Red & Pierre)

Post by MightyBarca on Tue Apr 06, 2010 11:41 pm

Yeah well how many goals did ronaldo score against Spanish teams when he was at utd? Zero!!! And same with rooney he hasn't scored against any Spanish team!!! Atleast messi's scored against utd!! And roo and ron couldn't even score against a makeshift defence in last year champ league final!!!!

L r dd

Number of posts : 12451
Age : 30
Registration date : 2008-12-22

Re: A lesson about football (for Super De La Red & Pierre)

Post by L r dd on Tue Apr 06, 2010 11:53 pm

thats because spanish teams are shite and dont go anywhere so we dont play them often. Put Rooney against Sevilla or Atletico he might score 4 or 5 goals

Hardrada

Number of posts : 2106
Age : 26
Supports : Chelsea FC
Favourite Player : GFZ
Registration date : 2006-08-06

Re: A lesson about football (for Super De La Red & Pierre)

Post by Hardrada on Tue Apr 06, 2010 11:58 pm

Worth pointing out the Drogba destroys Arsenal more or less in his sleep.

L r dd

Number of posts : 12451
Age : 30
Registration date : 2008-12-22

Re: A lesson about football (for Super De La Red & Pierre)

Post by L r dd on Tue Apr 06, 2010 11:59 pm

Drogba..Ronaldo..Zlatan...Rooney...Messi....the theme is clear top quality strikers make easy work of Arsenal because they're too open and give you chances and space. So Messi cashing in isnt really that special at all.
avatar
Barrilete

Number of posts : 2336
Age : 30
Supports : Club Atlético Boca Juniors
Favourite Player : Maxi Lopez, aka, TWD (The White Drogba)
Registration date : 2006-08-07

Re: A lesson about football (for Super De La Red & Pierre)

Post by Barrilete on Wed Apr 07, 2010 12:11 am

L r dd wrote:Drogba..Ronaldo..Zlatan...Rooney...Messi....the theme is clear top quality strikers make easy work of Arsenal because they're too open and give you chances and space. So Messi cashing in isnt really that special at all.

mind if I ask...what exactly is your point lrd??that Messi isn't right now the best player in the world??fine believe whatever you want, who gives a shit?? you're the only one who's not "cashing in" money by betting against him and Barça....

the boy had a great night and Barça are the envy of the world by having the best team in the world and having accomplished that with so many youngsters from La Masía...let's just clebrate and hats off to FCB

Ale
avatar
Isco Benny

Number of posts : 19646
Age : 37
Supports : Spurs, FOLLOWS (just for worms): Werder Bremen, Lazio, Ferencvaros, Valencia, El Classico, Angleterre, Magyarorszag
Favourite Player : Don't cha wish your left back was BAE? Don't cha
Registration date : 2006-08-08

Re: A lesson about football (for Super De La Red & Pierre)

Post by Isco Benny on Wed Apr 07, 2010 11:07 am

Ruud Gullit made a good point last night - For all Messi's incredible talent, he does benefit from having possibly the World's least wasteful midfielder playing next to him in Xavi. Even a player like Messi needs to be given the ball in the right areas to be effective.

We talk about Messi as the World's best player currently because of what he does for Barcelona, playing in probably the World's best team. Of course he's part of the reason that side is the World's best,

but the Messi who plays for Argentina for example would not be renowned as the World's best, because he doesn't have the luxury of playing with such fantastically talented team mates.

The clue to this is that if you took away Messi from the Barcelona side, you could argue Iniesta or Xavi as being the World's best player.

Do the likes of Ronaldo or Rooney have that luxury? Food for thought.

Yes he's the best player in the World, but he is fortunate to be playing in such a fabulous side Ale
avatar
SuperMario

Number of posts : 16866
Age : 50
Supports : Feyenoord & Arsenal
Favourite Player : Diego Biseswar
Registration date : 2006-11-10

Re: A lesson about football (for Super De La Red & Pierre)

Post by SuperMario on Wed Apr 07, 2010 11:23 am

kas wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/timvickery/2010/04/vickery_14.html


Messi - the devastating decoy

....

According to Brazil's physical preparation specialists, at the time of that great Dutch side, players were running 5,000 metres per game. By the mid 90s this had doubled, and now some players are covering 13,000.
A lesson for the Vickery bloke: THINK!

How can I take someone (Timmeh) seriously if he copies bs without thinking.

I'm believe the early 70s players were a tad less fit, but this is BULLSHIT. Football changed, but no way near this dramatically. I regularly watch entire old matches and some are pretty similar to current ones. movement might have improved by 10-25% but no way near 160%.
avatar
EM Seleção e Selecção

Number of posts : 2495
Age : 30
Supports : Portugal Brasil Africa
Favourite Player : Ronaldo Zidane Dinho Figo CR Robinho Neymar Hazard
Registration date : 2007-11-22

Re: A lesson about football (for Super De La Red & Pierre)

Post by EM Seleção e Selecção on Wed Apr 07, 2010 1:19 pm

Robert F'gerald Earle MBE wrote:Ruud Gullit made a good point last night - For all Messi's incredible talent, he does benefit from having possibly the World's least wasteful midfielder playing next to him in Xavi. Even a player like Messi needs to be given the ball in the right areas to be effective.

We talk about Messi as the World's best player currently because of what he does for Barcelona, playing in probably the World's best team. Of course he's part of the reason that side is the World's best,

but the Messi who plays for Argentina for example would not be renowned as the World's best, because he doesn't have the luxury of playing with such fantastically talented team mates.

The clue to this is that if you took away Messi from the Barcelona side, you could argue Iniesta or Xavi as being the World's best player.

Do the likes of Ronaldo or Rooney have that luxury? Food for thought.

Yes he's the best player in the World, but he is fortunate to be playing in such a fabulous side Ale
Seriously stop this rubbish that he is lucky to be playing in a fabulous side such a stupid myth.

Sponsored content

Re: A lesson about football (for Super De La Red & Pierre)

Post by Sponsored content


    Current date/time is Thu Aug 24, 2017 7:37 am