integration: should players sing national anthems

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Re: integration: should players sing national anthems

Post by  on Thu Jun 17, 2010 12:15 am

Noah and the Bale wrote:

What if you had migrated to the UK for good for work, and you had children who were then forced to make a choice when they reached the age of 23? Obviously for integration purposes into their new country, it would make sense to take on British citizenship yes? But only at the expense of giving up German citizenship.


well

if I VOLUNTARILY EMMIGRATED to the UK

ie, NOT stay there for a few years or even a generation but move there FOR GOOD

as I say, VOLUNTARILY

I would have no problem having a British passport

(I would NOT ask God to save your frumpy Queen though; even if Charles needs all the protection he can get from Camilla)

I would expect the kids to MAKE THEIR OWN CHOICE at the age of 18 or 21 or god knows when

NO PROBLEM AT ALL

bernd, you need to get real

YOU are so much MORE than the colour of your travel document

YOU

are a HUNGARIAN peach

or

pot of Goulasch

or

a Yorkshire pudding

or

a Bramley Apple from Kent

ABOVE ALL though

you are a SPURS SUPPORTER and a TRUE LION

I can also detect a hint of Poldi in you, a soupcon of Schweini, and possibly quite of bit of Lwi in your make-up

those are universal ATTRIBUTES you should, and no doubt, WILL cherish

wahre G
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fcb

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Re: integration: should players sing national anthems

Post by fcb on Thu Jun 17, 2010 7:02 am

L r dd wrote:That's the problem when you have idiots who blast people who just speak the truth. I tell you Someone shouldn't play for a certain country and i am racist or stupid but this is the result. Balotelli should never play for Italy. Kalou for Holland would have been a disgrace. Cacau for Germany is also a joke. NK show that progressive thinking on certain issues is actually bullshit.


You and many others are still struggling to accept the effects of globalisation. There's no such thing as a "pure" nationality or culture of one country any more....or if there is, it's reducing drastically. The amount of migration and mixed-race/heritage/nationality is only going to increase, and we're going to see more and more borderline cases of players choosing to play for different countries.

It's difficult to draw up rules to tackle such cases, and you certainly have no right (or knowledge) to decide whether someone belongs to one culture or country or not. It's a grey area with many subjective factors...every player has to be dealt with on an individual case by case basis.
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Fey

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Re: integration: should players sing national anthems

Post by Fey on Thu Jun 17, 2010 10:45 am

mongrel hawk wrote:by the way, I don't know one single son/daughter or grandson/granddaughter of an immigrant in Brazil that would support his/her ancestor's nation over Brazil, even the japs and koreans.

they all feel brazilian. some of them have their ancestors' nation as a second team, but that's all.

by what I read here, there are many immigrants in Europe who would support their ancestors' nation over their own nation.

Thing is though..how could one be against immigrants while being an immigrant yourself. Hence I dont understand why the Yanks are against all those Mexicans! Besides national identity and culture in the new world is not as large as it is here. Most of you new contes dont even have an own language, bar the natives of course, who are being dealt with the most respect.

Did you know that here having an immigrant as neighbour you house value drops 30% Yikes
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Lusitan

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Re: integration: should players sing national anthems

Post by Lusitan on Thu Jun 17, 2010 10:55 am

Fey wrote:...
Did you know that here having an immigrant as neighbour you house value drops 30% Yikes

Shocked
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bluenine

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Re: integration: should players sing national anthems

Post by bluenine on Thu Jun 17, 2010 11:04 am

kas wrote:
You and many others are still struggling to accept the effects of globalisation. There's no such thing as a "pure" nationality or culture of one country any more....or if there is, it's reducing drastically. The amount of migration and mixed-race/heritage/nationality is only going to increase, and we're going to see more and more borderline cases of players choosing to play for different countries.

It's difficult to draw up rules to tackle such cases, and you certainly have no right (or knowledge) to decide whether someone belongs to one culture or country or not. It's a grey area with many subjective factors...every player has to be dealt with on an individual case by case basis.
Ale Ale

I couldn't agree more.

I think statements like "Balotelli should not play for Italy" are primarily racist in nature, and this is the biggest threat that football is facing in Europe. And these racist fans are there in every country, be it Italy, England, or Spain.

Balotelli was born in Italy, raised by Italian parents, and has not lived in any other country.... he has as much right to call himself Italian as anyone else. If he was ethnically an european immigrant, there would ve been no hue and cry about his Italian status. Its just about the colour of his skin. Which is what makes it so sad.

I don't like Balotelli's attitude, but do feel for the kid... he has had to face a lot of racism at such young an age.

L r dd

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Re: integration: should players sing national anthems

Post by L r dd on Thu Jun 17, 2010 11:11 am

I'm not surprised the two indians are crying racist it's typical.

I haven't got time for people who don't know what they're talking about. The fact is it's destroying national football and it'll lose it's identity. Balotelli is not Italian. And these players should have no right to just decide they are a certain nationality because they can. Obviously they'll choose the better footballing nation. This isn't how it should work.

Not even one white player in the South African team this is racist.
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Six

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Re: integration: should players sing national anthems

Post by Six on Thu Jun 17, 2010 11:15 am

If we could have nationalised a WC goalkeeper and some penalty takers I would have no problem with it. As long as we won something.

Our cricket team is already leading the way in this, so as a nation we can't have any moral high ground on this issue. If there is an issue.

L r dd

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Re: integration: should players sing national anthems

Post by L r dd on Thu Jun 17, 2010 11:20 am

Cricket is a different sport whats it got to do with football? Most countries dont have a cricket team and some dont play tests thats why most swap. But by the rules they'd qualify for football most the south africans have english mothers i think. Thats a better reason than just being in a country for a period. I wouldn't want someone not English in our team it wouldn't be right. If everyone else does it doesn't matter to me still don't want to.
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BoBo Vieri 32

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Re: integration: should players sing national anthems

Post by BoBo Vieri 32 on Thu Jun 17, 2010 11:24 am

Heskey is of Antiguan descent, should he not play for England then lrd?

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Re: integration: should players sing national anthems

Post by L r dd on Thu Jun 17, 2010 11:26 am

Nah he's English.
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BoBo Vieri 32

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Re: integration: should players sing national anthems

Post by BoBo Vieri 32 on Thu Jun 17, 2010 11:27 am

L r dd wrote:Nah he's English.

Well you constantly tell me that i am English. But using your reasoning, i wouldn't be able to play for England.
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fcb

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Re: integration: should players sing national anthems

Post by fcb on Thu Jun 17, 2010 11:27 am

L r dd wrote:I'm not surprised the two indians are crying racist it's typical.

I haven't got time for people who don't know what they're talking about. The fact is it's destroying national football and it'll lose it's identity. Balotelli is not Italian. And these players should have no right to just decide they are a certain nationality because they can. Obviously they'll choose the better footballing nation. This isn't how it should work.

Not even one white player in the South African team this is racist.

Doh

You're going around making idiotic posts accusing people of being racist on anything and everything, it's not that (excuse the pun) black and white. If I disagree with you I'm not racist. If I agree with you I'm not 'un'-racist. That's not how it works.

What I'm trying to explain to you is that the idea of "identity" that you refer to is itself getting eroded. You say this swapping of nationalities is causing national football to lose its identity...what I'm saying is the old concept of "I belong to this country" is just not the same anymore. Identity is much more grey nowadays and varies a lot for people.

Your last sentence opens a whole new debate. How is it racist for there to be no white players in the South African team? It's picked on merit! Name me a deserving white footballer who should get in. What about France's team? What about South Africa's cricket team...there are no black players there.

Who are you to say Balotelli is not Italian? What do you know about his life, background, lifestyle, mindset, social circles?

Players will always choose the better country? I'm sure we can find many counter-examples to that. Of course if you say players will always choose the best country where they're likely to get a chance to play, that would be more true.

As far as I'm concerned, the only "wrong" thing in international sports these days is when countries break their existing immigration rules and give someone a passport purely to represent them in a sport. Qatar did exactly that a few years ago with some Brazilian sprinter.

Otherwise, whether someone has justified reasons or not to change nationality, and whether their link to a country is tenuous or strong, is not for you to decide because you don't have the necessary information to make that decision.


Last edited by kas on Thu Jun 17, 2010 11:31 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: integration: should players sing national anthems

Post by  on Thu Jun 17, 2010 11:27 am

bluenine wrote:
kas wrote:
You and many others are still struggling to accept the effects of globalisation. There's no such thing as a "pure" nationality or culture of one country any more....or if there is, it's reducing drastically. The amount of migration and mixed-race/heritage/nationality is only going to increase, and we're going to see more and more borderline cases of players choosing to play for different countries.

It's difficult to draw up rules to tackle such cases, and you certainly have no right (or knowledge) to decide whether someone belongs to one culture or country or not. It's a grey area with many subjective factors...every player has to be dealt with on an individual case by case basis.
Ale Ale

I couldn't agree more.

I think statements like "Balotelli should not play for Italy" are primarily racist in nature, and this is the biggest threat that football is facing in Europe. And these racist fans are there in every country, be it Italy, England, or Spain.

.

if Balotelli was born in Italy and raised by Italians...

OF COURSE , he should be allowed to play for Italy

AS LONG AS HE IDENTIFIES with Italy

100%

if he went public saying that he FELT African..., he should not be surprised , if Italians COULD not warm to him

----------

the whole process is a two-way-street though

the ONUS to FIT IT should be on the "new arrival"

Cacau is doing brilliantly in this regard and virtually nobody has a problem with him representing Germany

L r dd

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Re: integration: should players sing national anthems

Post by L r dd on Thu Jun 17, 2010 11:28 am

BoBo Vieri 32 wrote:
L r dd wrote:Nah he's English.

Well you constantly tell me that i am English. But using your reasoning, i wouldn't be able to play for England.

You hate and make insulting remarks about a country you live in and was in for presumably a long time if you cant see the problem with that then thats your problem.
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BoBo Vieri 32

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Re: integration: should players sing national anthems

Post by BoBo Vieri 32 on Thu Jun 17, 2010 11:30 am

L r dd wrote:
BoBo Vieri 32 wrote:
L r dd wrote:Nah he's English.

Well you constantly tell me that i am English. But using your reasoning, i wouldn't be able to play for England.

You hate and make insulting remarks about a country you live in and was in for presumably a long time if you cant see the problem with that then thats your problem.

That's avoiding the question lrd. I've caught you out. You're talking shit and you know it.

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Re: integration: should players sing national anthems

Post by L r dd on Thu Jun 17, 2010 11:32 am

kas wrote:
L r dd wrote:I'm not surprised the two indians are crying racist it's typical.

I haven't got time for people who don't know what they're talking about. The fact is it's destroying national football and it'll lose it's identity. Balotelli is not Italian. And these players should have no right to just decide they are a certain nationality because they can. Obviously they'll choose the better footballing nation. This isn't how it should work.

Not even one white player in the South African team this is racist.

Doh

You're going around making idiotic posts accusing people of being racist on anything and everything, it's not that (excuse the pun) black and white. If I disagree with you I'm not racist. If I agree with you I'm not 'un'-racist. That's not how it works.

What I'm trying to explain to you is that the idea of "identity" that you refer to is itself getting eroded. You say this swapping of nationalities is causing national football to lose its identity...what I'm saying is the old concept of "I belong to this country" is just not the same anymore. Identity is much more grey nowadays and varies a lot for people.

Your last sentence opens a whole new debate. How is it racist for there to be no white players in the South African team? It's picked on merit! Name me a deserving white footballer who should get in. What about France's team? What about South Africa's cricket team...there are no black players there.

I am simply responding to Bluenine's ignorant way out. Anyone who doesn't think Balotelli should play for italy is racist. What a nonsense line. Your comments are idiotic kas. Not everybody has no real country to call themselves there's because they've moved around everywhere.

Get outta here with your 'progressive view' It's bullshit sorry that im telling you that. South Africa have no good black cricketers. But Pieterson left South Africa because he couldn't get in the team due to the race rules. Yet there's no white footballers where is the same rule. This is racism im sure there's more talented white players than the crap on show yesterday. Their cricket team is one of the best in the world so thats different. You are deliberatly being stupid kas.
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Re: integration: should players sing national anthems

Post by mongrel hawk on Thu Jun 17, 2010 11:34 am

Lusitan wrote:
Fey wrote:...
Did you know that here having an immigrant as neighbour you house value drops 30% Yikes

Shocked

it just shows what I was on about.

@otto

I live in a neighbourhood full of Koreans. I love Korean food, so sometimes I go to a Korean restaurant in my street, and the waiters talk Korean between them, and I think this is awesome! While I eat a delicious, spicy dish, I try to pay attention to the sounds they make and to the sexy Korean girl at the door.

And, when I was younger, I used to teach Portuguese as a foreign language in So Paulo. I had many Korean and Japanese students.

The old Korean c**ts who were born there and who speak poor Portuguese support their own country in sports, but all of them have Brazil as their second team.

BUT their children, who were born in Brazil and speak Portuguese as well as Korean/Japanese/Italian/Greek/Spanish etc., they all support Brazil as their first team.

And I suspect the reason is:

They are not seen as immigrants by Brazilians. They are seen and treated as Brazilians, cause they were born here and speak our Brazilian Portuguese as any other Brazilian, so they feel Brazilian and support Brazil.

It doesn't mean they forgot their heritage. They still speak their ancestors language with their parents or grandparents, but it's their ancestors language for them, not their language.

Yeh, the law helps, cause if you were born in Brazil, even if your parents are from Hell, you'll be Brazilian according to the law and have the same rights as any other Brazilian have. But the law just reflects the Brazilian culture towards immigrants, which is a culture of acceptance.

But if you are in a country where the natives will treat you like an immigrant even if you were born and educated there, how the hell will you feel comfortable to support a country that doesn't accept you as one of them? Would you in their place? I wouldn't.
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Lusitan

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Re: integration: should players sing national anthems

Post by Lusitan on Thu Jun 17, 2010 11:35 am

Well, here it has nothing to do with race. It's more of a question of "do they feel Portuguese or not".

No one believes Deco does, everyone believes he has done it by pure self interest.

People were suspicious of Pepe, but he does have Portuguese ancestors and sings the "Portuguesa" louder than most. So i believe 90% consider him Portuguese.

Liedson is just that nice guy every one likes him so we dont mind having him arround.

How about that Swiss fellow who is cousin of Portuguese international player from Valencia, Manuel Fernandes (another good player with roots to Cabo-Verde)?
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Re: integration: should players sing national anthems

Post by bluenine on Thu Jun 17, 2010 11:36 am

wrote:
bluenine wrote:
kas wrote:
You and many others are still struggling to accept the effects of globalisation. There's no such thing as a "pure" nationality or culture of one country any more....or if there is, it's reducing drastically. The amount of migration and mixed-race/heritage/nationality is only going to increase, and we're going to see more and more borderline cases of players choosing to play for different countries.

It's difficult to draw up rules to tackle such cases, and you certainly have no right (or knowledge) to decide whether someone belongs to one culture or country or not. It's a grey area with many subjective factors...every player has to be dealt with on an individual case by case basis.
Ale Ale

I couldn't agree more.

I think statements like "Balotelli should not play for Italy" are primarily racist in nature, and this is the biggest threat that football is facing in Europe. And these racist fans are there in every country, be it Italy, England, or Spain.

.

if Balotelli was born in Italy and raised by Italians...

OF COURSE , he should be allowed to play for Italy

AS LONG AS HE IDENTIFIES with Italy

100%

if he went public saying that he FELT African..., he should not be surprised , if Italians COULD not warm to him
Balotelli has always said he felt Italian, and he kept categorically refusing offers to play for Ghana saying that he never felt Ghanian. He should be praised for doing the right thing, he refused to be a star for the best African team in the World Cup even when it was clear that Lippi will never pick him... and I am sure most people admire him for standing up to his principles, except for a few racists bigots...


Last edited by bluenine on Thu Jun 17, 2010 11:41 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: integration: should players sing national anthems

Post by L r dd on Thu Jun 17, 2010 11:39 am

Lusitan wrote:Well, here it has nothing to do with race. It's more of a question of "do they feel Portuguese or not".

No one believes Deco does, everyone believes he has done it by pure self interest.

People were suspicious of Pepe, but he does have Portuguese ancestors and sings the "Portuguesa" louder than most. So i believe 90% consider him Portuguese.

Liedson is just that nice guy every one likes him so we dont mind having him arround.

How about that Swiss fellow who is cousin of Portuguese international player from Valencia, Manuel Fernandes (another good player with roots to Cabo-Verde)?

Yeah thats the flipside. The ones from countries with players better than them will try and slip in elsewhere. I'm not sure it's that big a deal if they are close like UK or something. But when you have Almunia trying to get in England team or Deco or Eduard it's a disgrace
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mongrel hawk

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Re: integration: should players sing national anthems

Post by mongrel hawk on Thu Jun 17, 2010 11:39 am

and you can say the same thing about the muslims. there are thousands of muslims in So Paulo. The ones who were born here are also treated as Brazilians and feel Brazilian and supports Brazil.
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Lusitan

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Re: integration: should players sing national anthems

Post by Lusitan on Thu Jun 17, 2010 11:44 am

mongrel hawk wrote:and you can say the same thing about the muslims. there are thousands of muslims in So Paulo. The ones who were born here are also treated as Brazilians and feel Brazilian and supports Brazil.

What i think is a case-study is the fact you see no radical islamist in Brasil, nor are they trying to impose islam (or at least i've never heard of it).
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fcb

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Re: integration: should players sing national anthems

Post by fcb on Thu Jun 17, 2010 11:47 am

L r dd wrote:
kas wrote:
L r dd wrote:I'm not surprised the two indians are crying racist it's typical.

I haven't got time for people who don't know what they're talking about. The fact is it's destroying national football and it'll lose it's identity. Balotelli is not Italian. And these players should have no right to just decide they are a certain nationality because they can. Obviously they'll choose the better footballing nation. This isn't how it should work.

Not even one white player in the South African team this is racist.

Doh

You're going around making idiotic posts accusing people of being racist on anything and everything, it's not that (excuse the pun) black and white. If I disagree with you I'm not racist. If I agree with you I'm not 'un'-racist. That's not how it works.

What I'm trying to explain to you is that the idea of "identity" that you refer to is itself getting eroded. You say this swapping of nationalities is causing national football to lose its identity...what I'm saying is the old concept of "I belong to this country" is just not the same anymore. Identity is much more grey nowadays and varies a lot for people.

Your last sentence opens a whole new debate. How is it racist for there to be no white players in the South African team? It's picked on merit! Name me a deserving white footballer who should get in. What about France's team? What about South Africa's cricket team...there are no black players there.

I am simply responding to Bluenine's ignorant way out. Anyone who doesn't think Balotelli should play for italy is racist. What a nonsense line. Your comments are idiotic kas. Not everybody has no real country to call themselves there's because they've moved around everywhere.

Get outta here with your 'progressive view' It's bullshit sorry that im telling you that. South Africa have no good black cricketers. But Pieterson left South Africa because he couldn't get in the team due to the race rules. Yet there's no white footballers where is the same rule. This is racism im sure there's more talented white players than the crap on show yesterday. Their cricket team is one of the best in the world so thats different. You are deliberatly being stupid kas.

Doh

It was a mistake to get into any kind of serious discussion with you. If I try to counter one of your points, I'm not deliberately being stupid Rolling Eyes


All I'll tell you is, better get used to this "progressive view". Because i can tell that you are struggling to cope with the transition but eventually will have to embrace it. More and more teams are going to have "mixed race/nationality" footballers representing them, and the day when it happens for England is not far away.
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Re: integration: should players sing national anthems

Post by mongrel hawk on Thu Jun 17, 2010 11:50 am

Lusitan wrote:
mongrel hawk wrote:and you can say the same thing about the muslims. there are thousands of muslims in So Paulo. The ones who were born here are also treated as Brazilians and feel Brazilian and supports Brazil.

What i think is a case-study is the fact you see no radical islamist in Brasil, nor are they trying to impose islam (or at least i've never heard of it).

maybe they are not radical because they are treated like Brazilians by Brazilians, with the same rights as any other Brazilian. how about that?

and, as I said in another thread, there are no clashes at all between muslim Brazilians and jewish Brazilians here, and there are thousands of them both. why? cause they are both Brazilians. and the Brazilians don't see them as less Brazilians than the Catholic ones.

110%

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Re: integration: should players sing national anthems

Post by 110% on Thu Jun 17, 2010 11:59 am

BoBo Vieri 32 wrote:
L r dd wrote:
BoBo Vieri 32 wrote:
L r dd wrote:Nah he's English.

Well you constantly tell me that i am English. But using your reasoning, i wouldn't be able to play for England.

You hate and make insulting remarks about a country you live in and was in for presumably a long time if you cant see the problem with that then thats your problem.

That's avoiding the question lrd. I've caught you out. You're talking shit and you know it.

I think you have missed the ideal opportunity for some merkage. Your favourite player, manu and England captain Rio Ferdinand was born to a mixed Irish/English mother and a St Lucian father. He's more St Lucian than English else yet lrd has no problem with him choosing a country that is better at football abd being their captain Wink
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BoBo Vieri 32

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Re: integration: should players sing national anthems

Post by BoBo Vieri 32 on Thu Jun 17, 2010 12:00 pm

110% wrote:
BoBo Vieri 32 wrote:
L r dd wrote:
BoBo Vieri 32 wrote:
L r dd wrote:Nah he's English.

Well you constantly tell me that i am English. But using your reasoning, i wouldn't be able to play for England.

You hate and make insulting remarks about a country you live in and was in for presumably a long time if you cant see the problem with that then thats your problem.

That's avoiding the question lrd. I've caught you out. You're talking shit and you know it.

I think you have missed the ideal opportunity for some merkage. Your favourite player, manu and England captain Rio Ferdinand was born to a mixed Irish/English mother and a St Lucian father. He's more St Lucian than English else yet lrd has no problem with him choosing a country that is better at football abd being their captain Wink

Well i gave him the example of Heskey who has Antiguan parents but according to ltd - "nah, he's english!" Doh

Rio is an even better example though Very Happy

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Re: integration: should players sing national anthems

Post by L r dd on Thu Jun 17, 2010 12:02 pm

So born to an English mother in South London and totally English in his ways and you think he's St Lucian? This makes no sense.
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BoBo Vieri 32

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Re: integration: should players sing national anthems

Post by BoBo Vieri 32 on Thu Jun 17, 2010 12:05 pm

L r dd wrote:So born to an English mother in South London and totally English in his ways and you think he's St Lucian? This makes no sense.
Wasn't Balotelli born in Italy, brought up in Italy, by Italian parents? Yet according to you he is not Italian. You make no sense lrd.

110%

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Re: integration: should players sing national anthems

Post by 110% on Thu Jun 17, 2010 12:06 pm

L r dd wrote:So born to an English mother in South London and totally English in his ways and you think he's St Lucian? This makes no sense.

but balotelli has both italian parents and was born in italy!!!!

Doh
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Re: integration: should players sing national anthems

Post by abundance on Thu Jun 17, 2010 12:07 pm

L r dd, now I really can't understand why you was so shocked that Lippi did cut Giuseppe Rossi.

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Re: integration: should players sing national anthems

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