AC Milan 2010-11

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Isco Benny

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Re: AC Milan 2010-11

Post by Isco Benny on Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:51 am

Kroos wrote:
Bogdan Stancu wrote:
Forza Italia!Forza Milan! wrote:Kroos this is getting silly. You have an obsession with this topic, which is quite flattering in a way.

In 2007, I remember you ridiculing Milan before the Bayern tie. Then when Milan tore Bayern apart, you conceded that Milan "are a big club" etc.

It has been about four years of this calculating, Bundesliga vs. Serie A threads etc. I am starting to think you care more about these issues than the football itself.

I think the fact is that Germany has a complex when it comes to Italy and Italian football. All I was pointing out are results. In the last five years, two Italian teams have won the CL. No German teams have won anything in that time period.

When Bayern are able to beat Inter in a Final, then ppl will start taking this a bit seriously. You are wrong about some things though. As Super mentions, Italian football seems to be on the up for the most past. Roma's ownership issues are about to be sorted; Moratti is continuing to invest and so is Berlusconi. If you think people will not find loopholes in UEFA's financial fair play rules and patronage is dead in football, then congratulations, it seems the Bundesliga is alone, with a huge stretch of frontier awaiting its domination.

When you are comparing 2 leagues you can't compare just the top of the league. You also have to look at the rest.

This year Sampdoria won just 1 game in Europe. Juve none! Milan won just 2 games.

Compare that to Germany where even Stuttgart won 5 games. Bayern 5 games.

Unless Italian teams start wining in the EL they will have problems.

The funny thing is Germany was in this position 5 years ago when they where close to losing the 6th spot in the UEFA rankings. But they realized that EL/UEAF Cup points are important and turned things around.

thank you finally someone understands what i am talking

he talks about the 2 cl trophies and everything is fine Wink no i know that you know that not everything is fine, but come on, without moratti and berlusconi both clubs would have won shit in the past!! this plus is gone for the future


and you think platini is a fool or sometthing!! typical italiens, always wanna bypass the law, well your president berlusccoini is a bad example to look up for

The funny thing is, the Italian contingent on here are far more realistic than you are Kroos.

You were (and probably still are) insisting the Bundesliga is the best league in Europe.

It's time to think outside the box.
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Kroos

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Re: AC Milan 2010-11

Post by Kroos on Thu Feb 17, 2011 12:01 pm

look at the results of italien clubs, whats realistic on the italien contingent!!

i never said bundesliga is the best (maybe thats otto), i say its better than seriea and close to laliga

german teams dont have problems to win in europa league, and schalke and bayern played so far a great cl season, last years inters win changed nothing, because it had really nothing to do with italy or help them to develop the italien club game, maybe most clubs changed now the tactics and wanna copy the INTER tacitcs and play this style in europe, but not every coach is a mourinho



Last edited by Kroos on Thu Feb 17, 2011 1:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Forza Italia!Forza Milan!

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Re: AC Milan 2010-11

Post by Forza Italia!Forza Milan! on Thu Feb 17, 2011 12:26 pm

Kroos and Bogdan:

I never said everything was fine. I even specifically said "Italian teams have to pick up their game in the Europa League."

But kroos speaks like a German club has won a European trophy in the last five years...in the end if Italy lose their fourth spot in the CL (which is very likely), then it will not be the end of the world. What I would rather see is an Italian club win the European prize fairly frequently.

I fear until the financial incentive is greater in the Europa league, clubs like Palermo will always field weakened sides. Their outlook is not professional as the German clubs'. Yet, this explains just a part of the problem. Napoli only just qualified, beating Steaua at the death. They were playing with a pretty competitive first team, so they should not have had to wait that long.

I have heard for the last decade that Italian football is in decline, yet the clubs manage to win something. I am more worried about other issues (racism, crippling financial mismanagement, dilapidated stadia etc.).

Finally, Kroos, it seems you also have a problem with Berlusconi and Moratti pouring money into the club. This is how Italian clubs have stayed competitive in Europe. And in England this is also a model now. Berlusconi is the PM (not the president), and I think he is not only a bad example, but a depraved shitface. My point about UEFA was that if the financial fair play rules really are as stringent as they claim to be, then most clubs would be barred from competing--not just Italian ones. I know you think I have a congenital inability to distinguish right from wrong, but there are wondrous things happening outside of Germany...
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bluenine

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Re: AC Milan 2010-11

Post by bluenine on Thu Feb 17, 2011 12:53 pm

Kroos,

Serie A has already faced up to the worst of times 4-5 years ago, that was the bottom of the barrel for the league. So your reactions are a bit dated. Last few years we have seen a slow, gradual increase in talent/competitiveness in the league. Teams like Napoli, Fiorentina, Genoa, Lazio, etc have been investing in their squads, so has Juve since their return, and finally this season Milan woke up as well. However, this depth of talent is well distributed across the league at the moment. Think of the talented players of Serie A, and you will think of Pastore/Ilicic of Palermo, Hamsik/Cavani of Napoli, Hernanes of Laizo, Sanchez of Udinese, Jovetic/Ljajic of Fiorentina, etc. Its well distributed. The top teams are not yet competitive enough for Europe. And thats why the results are not stacking up. But I guess over the next 2-4 years its bound of happen, the cream always floats to the top, and the big teams will start getting stronger at the expense of the smaller teams... Perhaps then Serie A will start showing better results in Europe. The coefficient demoninator is also going to reduce from 7 to 6, while Germany's moves in the opposite direction - that will make an impact... I am guessing that Serie A will be back to the top 3 within 3 years of losing the spot, maybe even 2 years.
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abundance

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Re: AC Milan 2010-11

Post by abundance on Thu Feb 17, 2011 1:44 pm

To make an atomic physics analogy, our energy potential level is pretty much stable at the moment, but apparently Kroos' detectors are still overwhelmed by the photons emitted by our last decrease in energy level, which took place somewhere in the middle of the last decade.

If there's something declining here, it's the quality of german scientific instruments =D



BTW, Hi bobo, so glad to see u hanging here again =)
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Kroos

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Re: AC Milan 2010-11

Post by Kroos on Thu Feb 17, 2011 1:45 pm

very optimistic statements from blue and forza, i can understand your optimisn, you have no reason not to believe that you will be better again to a german league, which had as good as nothing to boast in the last decade, but the main points of italien success are gone:

- lack of italien top talent, and developing
- no tax benefits
- no follower in the stadions, very outdated arenas
- no money threw owners threw UFFP, that means lower wages, lower fees, rely on youth
- security issues

one is hoping the talents will save italys arse, but simply no other country in europe can competete with germany in terms of talent developing (i can go threw place 1-10 in the table and in every club is a handful of talents they are key players for there club), that was the biggest issue in germany of the last decade

one is hoping the uefa rules wont be that strict (every club knows about the rules since years or months, and everyone knows that from 2011 to 2015 the rule will gradually increase in terms of his function)

ok some clubs maybe stupid, like chelsea and city (no one would miss them though), would be different for milan inter with history in europe, maybe next summer will probably the last time for owners to put huge amount of money into the club, i have my doubts that they will, all 4 clubs i mentioned are big in red, they should finally start to sort out there probelms and control there wages and fees
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abundance

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Re: AC Milan 2010-11

Post by abundance on Thu Feb 17, 2011 2:06 pm

thanks for reiterating my point =D

Kroos wrote:
- lack of italien top talent, and developing
- no tax benefits
- no follower in the stadions, very outdated arenas
- no money threw owners threw UFFP, that means lower wages, lower fees, rely on youth
- security issues

1st, 3rd and 5th issues have been there for the second half of the last decade (and 1st isn't even directly tied to league competitiveness).

These issue won't be solved overnight (neither in few years) but we already hit the bottom, there are signs of recovery (some good youngsters around, Juventus finishing its stadium...)
You can argue if the improvement will be significant at all but it's definitely not getting worse.


The challenges of the new financial regulation regime are there for everybody in Europe.
According to Deloitte there are 4 italian teams and 4 german teams in the top 20 clubs by revenue, so I don't see such a gigantic gap in Serie A chances of sustaining powerhouses.
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Kroos

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Re: AC Milan 2010-11

Post by Kroos on Thu Feb 17, 2011 2:24 pm

some youngesters hahaha give me a break, in germany i talk from 40+ ( i am not saying they all quality)
italien promising youngsters rare these days

its all about which club is in red, not the revenue, and i think every big club in italy is in red or have debts
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bluenine

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Re: AC Milan 2010-11

Post by bluenine on Thu Feb 17, 2011 3:02 pm

Kroos wrote:some youngesters hahaha give me a break, in germany i talk from 40+ ( i am not saying they all quality)
italien promising youngsters rare these days

its all about which club is in red, not the revenue, and i think every big club in italy is in red or have debts
Kroos, maybe you don't understand FFP properly. Its not about which club is in red, but more to limit your transfer/wage spend to your revenue. So a club with bigger revenue will still a bigger transfer/wage budget. For example, if Inter decide to build a stadium, and the cost off doing so pushes us deep into red, that will not impact FFP at all as long as our transfer/wages costs are within our revenues.


Last edited by bluenine on Thu Feb 17, 2011 3:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Forza Italia!Forza Milan!

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Re: AC Milan 2010-11

Post by Forza Italia!Forza Milan! on Thu Feb 17, 2011 3:02 pm

@kroos

The tax rate is high, as it is in England. Also for the past few years Milan have been working hard to be self-sufficient. Galliani has been securing a lot of sponsors, and when it comes to brands, with all due respect, I think Milan is a bigger brand than Bayern, and hence the club will have an easier time attracting bigger names (Fly Emirates etc.).

Further, players prefer to go to Italy over Germany. I think this is undeniable. The first choice is always Real/Barca, then a big English club, then Italy (sometimes Italian clubs get there first even). Germany is still seen, imo, as a league having one big team (Bayern) and several decent teams.

You have an enviable league and a fantastic national team in many ways. Your stadia are amazing, your clubs are financially solvent, etc. Your national team is filled with talent, but Italy is not in an irreversible decline as you suggest. Trust me, I am no optimist; I say this as a person who always fears the worst.

@bluenine

Yeah, so how do you think that will work out. Milan can boost revenue if Finnivest decide to invest more than usual one year?
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bluenine

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Re: AC Milan 2010-11

Post by bluenine on Thu Feb 17, 2011 3:06 pm

abundance wrote:To make an atomic physics analogy, our energy potential level is pretty much stable at the moment, but apparently Kroos' detectors are still overwhelmed by the photons emitted by our last decrease in energy level, which took place somewhere in the middle of the last decade.

If there's something declining here, it's the quality of german scientific instruments =D
lol!
Like their calculators Wink
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bluenine

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Re: AC Milan 2010-11

Post by bluenine on Thu Feb 17, 2011 3:22 pm

Forza Italia!Forza Milan! wrote:@bluenine

Yeah, so how do you think that will work out. Milan can boost revenue if Finnivest decide to invest more than usual one year?
Nope.

What Platini & Co have (quite cleverly) done, is try and limit wages/transfer costs to a clubs "generated" revenues (ie gate reciepts, TV, commercial, etc). Expenditures on infrastructure or funding from parent company/investors has nothing to do with it. Lets analyse this for Milan, for example:
2010 "generated" revenue was 197m
Wage bill ~ 130m
Player Amortisation cost ~ 40m

So if FFP rules were applicable today, Milan could at maximum spend a net of 17m in transfers for 2010. Luckily the FFP will only fully come to force in 4-5 years time, and by then the like of Milan and Inter would restructure their huge wage bills (which are already reducing) and seriously look at generating more revenues.
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Murray

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Re: AC Milan 2010-11

Post by Murray on Thu Feb 17, 2011 3:32 pm

Italian clubs have won 2 of the last 4 CLs, it's 10 years since a German club won it.

It's only 5 years since Italy won the world cup, but 21 years since Germany won it.

Nobody cares about the Europa league.

Looks like a win for Italy to me.

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shazlx

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Re: AC Milan 2010-11

Post by shazlx on Thu Feb 17, 2011 3:35 pm

Forza Italia!Forza Milan! wrote:@kroos
Also for the past few years Milan have been working hard to be self-sufficient. Galliani has been securing a lot of sponsors, and when it comes to brands, with all due respect, I think Milan is a bigger brand than Bayern, and hence the club will have an easier time attracting bigger names (Fly Emirates etc.).
Shocked Just this point. Bayern Munich have by far the highest revenue from commercial partners (they make more than even Madrid and Barca, more than ManU and Arsenal combined). Milan may be a bigger name outside Europe, and even in Europe, but Bayern have the largest supporter base in the largest economy in Europe.
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Forza Italia!Forza Milan!

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Re: AC Milan 2010-11

Post by Forza Italia!Forza Milan! on Thu Feb 17, 2011 3:44 pm

shazlx wrote:
Forza Italia!Forza Milan! wrote:@kroos
Also for the past few years Milan have been working hard to be self-sufficient. Galliani has been securing a lot of sponsors, and when it comes to brands, with all due respect, I think Milan is a bigger brand than Bayern, and hence the club will have an easier time attracting bigger names (Fly Emirates etc.).
Shocked Just this point. Bayern Munich have by far the highest revenue from commercial partners (they make more than even Madrid and Barca, more than ManU and Arsenal combined). Milan may be a bigger name outside Europe, and even in Europe, but Bayern have the largest supporter base in the largest economy in Europe.

You're right. But I think Milan have not maximized their brand potential, as a club that is bigger than Bayern should do. I still think Milan has the potential to be bigger, but Italian clubs have been lazy when it has come to maximizing that potential. Only now are they getting into the groove.

I should have been perhaps more precise with what I meant about brand. Commercially, Bayern have done a lot better than Milan, but I think Milan have the potential to be bigger. If they are a bigger name as you concede, then why not capitalize on that more effectively?


Last edited by Forza Italia!Forza Milan! on Thu Feb 17, 2011 3:53 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Forza Italia!Forza Milan!

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Re: AC Milan 2010-11

Post by Forza Italia!Forza Milan! on Thu Feb 17, 2011 3:45 pm

bluenine wrote:
Forza Italia!Forza Milan! wrote:@bluenine

Yeah, so how do you think that will work out. Milan can boost revenue if Finnivest decide to invest more than usual one year?
Nope.

What Platini & Co have (quite cleverly) done, is try and limit wages/transfer costs to a clubs "generated" revenues (ie gate reciepts, TV, commercial, etc). Expenditures on infrastructure or funding from parent company/investors has nothing to do with it. Lets analyse this for Milan, for example:
2010 "generated" revenue was 197m
Wage bill ~ 130m
Player Amortisation cost ~ 40m

So if FFP rules were applicable today, Milan could at maximum spend a net of 17m in transfers for 2010. Luckily the FFP will only fully come to force in 4-5 years time, and by then the like of Milan and Inter would restructure their huge wage bills (which are already reducing) and seriously look at generating more revenues.

Thanks! I think you meant 27 million, but your explanation makes sense.


Last edited by Forza Italia!Forza Milan! on Thu Feb 17, 2011 4:10 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Kroos

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Re: AC Milan 2010-11

Post by Kroos on Thu Feb 17, 2011 3:59 pm

what about the huge debts from clubs, have they no influence of the ffp?


bayern get 170 million alone threw advertisment, thats the number one in the world, our revenue was 323 million, thats 100 million more than milan and number 4 in the world, i think in terms of money without owners/rich presidents no club can competete with bayern

i think the time were any player would walk by foot to italy only to play there are over, die bundesliga is very attractive these days, but in general i agree, lets not forget the huge salarys inter and milan pay

the future of the germany league relys on german players filled with some decent foreign stars, thats the best combination if the quality dont drops, you can have those overpaid robinhos Very Happy


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Red n' Black

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Re: AC Milan 2010-11

Post by Red n' Black on Thu Feb 17, 2011 4:25 pm

what huge debt?

[img][/img]

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The Easter Bunny

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Re: AC Milan 2010-11

Post by The Easter Bunny on Thu Feb 17, 2011 5:10 pm

Red n' Black wrote:what huge debt?

[img][/img]


That also mentions you have a formidable defence Whistle
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bluenine

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Re: AC Milan 2010-11

Post by bluenine on Thu Feb 17, 2011 5:53 pm

Kroos wrote:what about the huge debts from clubs, have they no influence of the ffp?

bayern get 170 million alone threw advertisment, thats the number one in the world, our revenue was 323 million, thats 100 million more than milan and number 4 in the world, i think in terms of money without owners/rich presidents no club can competete with bayern

i think the time were any player would walk by foot to italy only to play there are over, die bundesliga is very attractive these days, but in general i agree, lets not forget the huge salarys inter and milan pay

the future of the germany league relys on german players filled with some decent foreign stars, thats the best combination if the quality dont drops, you can have those overpaid robinhos Very Happy
Not sure about Milan, but I know that Inter has very small debt... Moratti has been covering our losses with investment... If Milan have historic debt, you can be sure Berlu will cover it up sooner or later, much before any of it impacts the FFP in any way.

Bayerns revenues are much higher than Inter or Milan, but then Bayern are run professionally and hence will only spend sensibly... whereas Inter or Milan will probably spend as much as they can under FFP, ie almost all of their generated revenues. Its just a guess, but I don't expect the spending patterns to change too much with FFP in this case.....
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Red n' Black

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Re: AC Milan 2010-11

Post by Red n' Black on Thu Feb 17, 2011 6:19 pm

The Easter Bunny wrote:
Red n' Black wrote:what huge debt?

[img][/img]


That also mentions you have a formidable defence Whistle

Yes, and while that part isn't very true(or wasn't very true in 2010 when Forbes made that list), the debt part certainly is. I could find other reports and a ton of quotes from Galliani stressing that, but I'm a bit bored.
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Pirlo

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Re: AC Milan 2010-11

Post by Pirlo on Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:46 am

Serie A is only talked abvout disparingly now because you have the comparison to how brilliant and dominant it was in the 1990s. Even up until about 2004 the league was still fantastic. A great generation ended in Berlin 2006 and Calciopoli smacked the big clubs, after 15 or so years of the worlds best players, football, great European nights, great goals etc, any changed in status is likely to be a decline, the coincidence of the World Cup generations demise and Calciopoli has only exaggerated this.

The situation with the stadiums is also a hinderance, which is why more of the clubs are now financing to build their own ownership of new grounds with modern facilities, we're still playing the 1990 shells and renting off of local councils! Modern football has also changed rapidly in five years, where the strengths of Serie A has been technique and tactical play and orchestral tempo, now the modern game is about pace and physique, it will take a while for italy to adopt to these new conditions, and it is a big culture shock to play against the English sides, Serie A teams just don't play with that level of intensity, stamina and consistent pace.

Despite this being a bleak century, we've still taken a World Cup and 3 Champions League titles and been runners-up in another final that we should have won. For that to be called underachieving and the league in crisis shows just how high the dominance of Italy in the 90s was, we should have taken both the 1990 and 1994 World Cups and we contested virtually every European final in that decade at Champions League and UEFA Cup level.

UEFA Cup Winners Cup
1989 - Sampdoria
1990 - Sampdoria
1993 - Parma
1994 - Parma
1999 - Lazio

UEFA Cup finallists
1989 - Napoli
1990 - Juve/Fiorentina
1991 - Inter/Roma
1992 - Torino
1993 - Juventus
1994 - Inter
1995 - Parma/Juve
1997 - Inter
1998 - Inter/Lazio
1999 - Parma

European Champions League finallists
1989 - Milan
1990 - Milan
1992 - Sampdoria
1993 - Milan
1994 - Milan
1995 - Milan
1996 - Juventus
1997 - Juventus
1998 - Juventus

After a massive period of presence like that, any decline is likely to be marked, like all great Empires your time comes and it will go, we're in a decline now for sure, but there's enough managerial talent and young talent in the league for it to still be interesting to watch and the technical standard of football is still great and up with Spain's league despite the lack of pace and physicality in the most part. I think the physical element of the modern game more than anything has been largely responsible for the decline, and also the passing of a great generation of players, but to take a back seat in Europe now was worth it for those 15 years that the league was utterly brilliant.

Ronaldo, Batistuta, Nedved, Sheva, Dunga, Aldair, Cafu, Matthaus, Simeone, Costacurta, Maldini, Baresi, R.Baggio, Albertini, Donadoni, Rijkaard, Gullit, Seedorf, Davids, Kluivert, Deschamps, Desailly, Zidane, Thuram, Bierhoff, Peruzzi, Nesta, Toldo, Del Piero, Di Livio, Chiesa, Ravanelli, Couto, Rui Costa, Paulo Sousa, Boban, Emerson, Zamorano, Salas, Cannavaro, Inzaghi, Vieri, Buffon, Trezeguet, Jugovic, Savicevic, Stankovic, Kovacevic, Cordoba, Ayala, Almeyda, Claudio Lopez, Veron, Crespo, Zanetti, Totti, Zambrotta, Montella, Mihajlovic, Montero, Recoba, Mendieta, Redondo, Rivaldo, Kaka, Ibrahimovic etc have all passed through and left a mark of some sorts and there have obviously been many many others,

Now there are less names, but i'm sure once we modernise our game and move into the right century with our stadiums then we will be back as a force, but it's worth having a decline of the last five years where you contest 3 champions league finals, win 2 of them and win a World Cup. It's worth having a decline just in exchange for having those 15 years of magic.

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Tarun

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Re: AC Milan 2010-11

Post by Tarun on Fri Feb 18, 2011 8:45 am

Awesome post Pirlo!

Loved your comparison with the dominance and decline of empires. It could not have been better explained.

Like you wrote, its the modernization of the game along with infrastructure that should be the priority of all big clubs. We need to quickly adopt the English way of using and monetizing infrastructure.

The modern game does require speed and physical approach but tactical cohesiveness was always the strong point of the Italian game. So the league should not let go of that strength while adopting the modern day requirements. Also, with some Italian coaches plying their trade in England at present, there will be some learning that they will bring back when the coach Italian teams again and I think that would be an important factor as well.

Pirlo wrote:Serie A is only talked abvout disparingly now because you have the comparison to how brilliant and dominant it was in the 1990s. Even up until about 2004 the league was still fantastic. A great generation ended in Berlin 2006 and Calciopoli smacked the big clubs, after 15 or so years of the worlds best players, football, great European nights, great goals etc, any changed in status is likely to be a decline, the coincidence of the World Cup generations demise and Calciopoli has only exaggerated this.

The situation with the stadiums is also a hinderance, which is why more of the clubs are now financing to build their own ownership of new grounds with modern facilities, we're still playing the 1990 shells and renting off of local councils! Modern football has also changed rapidly in five years, where the strengths of Serie A has been technique and tactical play and orchestral tempo, now the modern game is about pace and physique, it will take a while for italy to adopt to these new conditions, and it is a big culture shock to play against the English sides, Serie A teams just don't play with that level of intensity, stamina and consistent pace.

Despite this being a bleak century, we've still taken a World Cup and 3 Champions League titles and been runners-up in another final that we should have won. For that to be called underachieving and the league in crisis shows just how high the dominance of Italy in the 90s was, we should have taken both the 1990 and 1994 World Cups and we contested virtually every European final in that decade at Champions League and UEFA Cup level.

UEFA Cup Winners Cup
1989 - Sampdoria
1990 - Sampdoria
1993 - Parma
1994 - Parma
1999 - Lazio

UEFA Cup finallists
1989 - Napoli
1990 - Juve/Fiorentina
1991 - Inter/Roma
1992 - Torino
1993 - Juventus
1994 - Inter
1995 - Parma/Juve
1997 - Inter
1998 - Inter/Lazio
1999 - Parma

European Champions League finallists
1989 - Milan
1990 - Milan
1992 - Sampdoria
1993 - Milan
1994 - Milan
1995 - Milan
1996 - Juventus
1997 - Juventus
1998 - Juventus

After a massive period of presence like that, any decline is likely to be marked, like all great Empires your time comes and it will go, we're in a decline now for sure, but there's enough managerial talent and young talent in the league for it to still be interesting to watch and the technical standard of football is still great and up with Spain's league despite the lack of pace and physicality in the most part. I think the physical element of the modern game more than anything has been largely responsible for the decline, and also the passing of a great generation of players, but to take a back seat in Europe now was worth it for those 15 years that the league was utterly brilliant.

Ronaldo, Batistuta, Nedved, Sheva, Dunga, Aldair, Cafu, Matthaus, Simeone, Costacurta, Maldini, Baresi, R.Baggio, Albertini, Donadoni, Rijkaard, Gullit, Seedorf, Davids, Kluivert, Deschamps, Desailly, Zidane, Thuram, Bierhoff, Peruzzi, Nesta, Toldo, Del Piero, Di Livio, Chiesa, Ravanelli, Couto, Rui Costa, Paulo Sousa, Boban, Emerson, Zamorano, Salas, Cannavaro, Inzaghi, Vieri, Buffon, Trezeguet, Jugovic, Savicevic, Stankovic, Kovacevic, Cordoba, Ayala, Almeyda, Claudio Lopez, Veron, Crespo, Zanetti, Totti, Zambrotta, Montella, Mihajlovic, Montero, Recoba, Mendieta, Redondo, Rivaldo, Kaka, Ibrahimovic etc have all passed through and left a mark of some sorts and there have obviously been many many others,

Now there are less names, but i'm sure once we modernise our game and move into the right century with our stadiums then we will be back as a force, but it's worth having a decline of the last five years where you contest 3 champions league finals, win 2 of them and win a World Cup. It's worth having a decline just in exchange for having those 15 years of magic.

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gone

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Re: AC Milan 2010-11

Post by gone on Fri Feb 18, 2011 9:21 am

Pirlo wrote:Serie A is only talked abvout disparingly now because you have the comparison to how brilliant and dominant it was in the 1990s. Even up until about 2004 the league was still fantastic. A great generation ended in Berlin 2006 and Calciopoli smacked the big clubs, after 15 or so years of the worlds best players, football, great European nights, great goals etc, any changed in status is likely to be a decline, the coincidence of the World Cup generations demise and Calciopoli has only exaggerated this.

The situation with the stadiums is also a hinderance, which is why more of the clubs are now financing to build their own ownership of new grounds with modern facilities, we're still playing the 1990 shells and renting off of local councils! Modern football has also changed rapidly in five years, where the strengths of Serie A has been technique and tactical play and orchestral tempo, now the modern game is about pace and physique, it will take a while for italy to adopt to these new conditions, and it is a big culture shock to play against the English sides, Serie A teams just don't play with that level of intensity, stamina and consistent pace.

Despite this being a bleak century, we've still taken a World Cup and 3 Champions League titles and been runners-up in another final that we should have won. For that to be called underachieving and the league in crisis shows just how high the dominance of Italy in the 90s was, we should have taken both the 1990 and 1994 World Cups and we contested virtually every European final in that decade at Champions League and UEFA Cup level.

UEFA Cup Winners Cup
1989 - Sampdoria
1990 - Sampdoria
1993 - Parma
1994 - Parma
1999 - Lazio

UEFA Cup finallists
1989 - Napoli
1990 - Juve/Fiorentina
1991 - Inter/Roma
1992 - Torino
1993 - Juventus
1994 - Inter
1995 - Parma/Juve
1997 - Inter
1998 - Inter/Lazio
1999 - Parma

European Champions League finallists
1989 - Milan
1990 - Milan
1992 - Sampdoria
1993 - Milan
1994 - Milan
1995 - Milan
1996 - Juventus
1997 - Juventus
1998 - Juventus

After a massive period of presence like that, any decline is likely to be marked, like all great Empires your time comes and it will go, we're in a decline now for sure, but there's enough managerial talent and young talent in the league for it to still be interesting to watch and the technical standard of football is still great and up with Spain's league despite the lack of pace and physicality in the most part. I think the physical element of the modern game more than anything has been largely responsible for the decline, and also the passing of a great generation of players, but to take a back seat in Europe now was worth it for those 15 years that the league was utterly brilliant.

Ronaldo, Batistuta, Nedved, Sheva, Dunga, Aldair, Cafu, Matthaus, Simeone, Costacurta, Maldini, Baresi, R.Baggio, Albertini, Donadoni, Rijkaard, Gullit, Seedorf, Davids, Kluivert, Deschamps, Desailly, Zidane, Thuram, Bierhoff, Peruzzi, Nesta, Toldo, Del Piero, Di Livio, Chiesa, Ravanelli, Couto, Rui Costa, Paulo Sousa, Boban, Emerson, Zamorano, Salas, Cannavaro, Inzaghi, Vieri, Buffon, Trezeguet, Jugovic, Savicevic, Stankovic, Kovacevic, Cordoba, Ayala, Almeyda, Claudio Lopez, Veron, Crespo, Zanetti, Totti, Zambrotta, Montella, Mihajlovic, Montero, Recoba, Mendieta, Redondo, Rivaldo, Kaka, Ibrahimovic etc have all passed through and left a mark of some sorts and there have obviously been many many others,

Now there are less names, but i'm sure once we modernise our game and move into the right century with our stadiums then we will be back as a force, but it's worth having a decline of the last five years where you contest 3 champions league finals, win 2 of them and win a World Cup. It's worth having a decline just in exchange for having those 15 years of magic.


I will point out that Germany was just as dominant in the late 70's early 80's and even if they won a WC in 1990, won a Euro in 96 or have their teams win some CL (Dortmund and Bayern) they are still not at that level (70's - 80's). When you start to fall is hard to get back up. I think it will take Serie A 5-10 years to get back to the same level as England and Spain.
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Isco Benny

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Re: AC Milan 2010-11

Post by Isco Benny on Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:04 pm

Pirlo wrote:Serie A is only talked abvout disparingly now because you have the comparison to how brilliant and dominant it was in the 1990s. Even up until about 2004 the league was still fantastic. A great generation ended in Berlin 2006 and Calciopoli smacked the big clubs, after 15 or so years of the worlds best players, football, great European nights, great goals etc, any changed in status is likely to be a decline, the coincidence of the World Cup generations demise and Calciopoli has only exaggerated this.

The situation with the stadiums is also a hinderance, which is why more of the clubs are now financing to build their own ownership of new grounds with modern facilities, we're still playing the 1990 shells and renting off of local councils! Modern football has also changed rapidly in five years, where the strengths of Serie A has been technique and tactical play and orchestral tempo, now the modern game is about pace and physique, it will take a while for italy to adopt to these new conditions, and it is a big culture shock to play against the English sides, Serie A teams just don't play with that level of intensity, stamina and consistent pace.

Despite this being a bleak century, we've still taken a World Cup and 3 Champions League titles and been runners-up in another final that we should have won. For that to be called underachieving and the league in crisis shows just how high the dominance of Italy in the 90s was, we should have taken both the 1990 and 1994 World Cups and we contested virtually every European final in that decade at Champions League and UEFA Cup level.

UEFA Cup Winners Cup
1989 - Sampdoria
1990 - Sampdoria
1993 - Parma
1994 - Parma
1999 - Lazio

UEFA Cup finallists
1989 - Napoli
1990 - Juve/Fiorentina
1991 - Inter/Roma
1992 - Torino
1993 - Juventus
1994 - Inter
1995 - Parma/Juve
1997 - Inter
1998 - Inter/Lazio
1999 - Parma

European Champions League finallists
1989 - Milan
1990 - Milan
1992 - Sampdoria
1993 - Milan
1994 - Milan
1995 - Milan
1996 - Juventus
1997 - Juventus
1998 - Juventus

After a massive period of presence like that, any decline is likely to be marked, like all great Empires your time comes and it will go, we're in a decline now for sure, but there's enough managerial talent and young talent in the league for it to still be interesting to watch and the technical standard of football is still great and up with Spain's league despite the lack of pace and physicality in the most part. I think the physical element of the modern game more than anything has been largely responsible for the decline, and also the passing of a great generation of players, but to take a back seat in Europe now was worth it for those 15 years that the league was utterly brilliant.

Ronaldo, Batistuta, Nedved, Sheva, Dunga, Aldair, Cafu, Matthaus, Simeone, Costacurta, Maldini, Baresi, R.Baggio, Albertini, Donadoni, Rijkaard, Gullit, Seedorf, Davids, Kluivert, Deschamps, Desailly, Zidane, Thuram, Bierhoff, Peruzzi, Nesta, Toldo, Del Piero, Di Livio, Chiesa, Ravanelli, Couto, Rui Costa, Paulo Sousa, Boban, Emerson, Zamorano, Salas, Cannavaro, Inzaghi, Vieri, Buffon, Trezeguet, Jugovic, Savicevic, Stankovic, Kovacevic, Cordoba, Ayala, Almeyda, Claudio Lopez, Veron, Crespo, Zanetti, Totti, Zambrotta, Montella, Mihajlovic, Montero, Recoba, Mendieta, Redondo, Rivaldo, Kaka, Ibrahimovic etc have all passed through and left a mark of some sorts and there have obviously been many many others,

Now there are less names, but i'm sure once we modernise our game and move into the right century with our stadiums then we will be back as a force, but it's worth having a decline of the last five years where you contest 3 champions league finals, win 2 of them and win a World Cup. It's worth having a decline just in exchange for having those 15 years of magic.


Whilst I applaud and agree with you on the gist of this, I have read between the lines on some of your posts recently and I sense you believe or at least imply that the English league's success in Europe rests on it's physicality and speed, whilst the more "sensual" aspects (ie tactical and technical expertise) still belong to Italy and Spain, who - in Italy in particular - have not been able to keep up with the "athleticism" of modern day football.

If this isn't your implication, then fair enough, but I'm going to argue this anyway: it's a massive disservice, and I also believe a noticeably inherent snobbery, not to credit the English league for bridging the tactical and technical gap. It's not enough to say teams like Spurs, Man United, Arsenal, Liverpool, Chelsea, (and lesser sides who have done well in the Europa League such as Fulham and Newcastle) only succeed against Italian (and Spanish) counterparts because of physicality and speed, ie the "modern game".

The English teams in the early 90's were no less physical or quick than today's Premier League sides - perhaps in terms of stamina and strength they were less intenst - but the difference in England over the last 20 years has been that the technical and tactical aspects have matured without losing the inherent traditions of English football.

Take Spurs at the San Siro for example - Milan were no less physical than we were. Equally, Milan were no more technically adept than we were - both sides had a balanced mix of artists and artisans.

We didn't win that game because of physicality. We did benefit from having more speed in the team for sure, but it wasn't just a case of headless chicken running - tactically we were set up excellently, pressing high up the field in the first half, and after making no breakthrough this way then dropping deeper in the second, allowing Milan onto us and isolating the central defence. Lennon still had a lot to do to get past Yepes then cut back for Crouch. Not to credit the technique involved would be rather unfair.

I use this as just one example.

As I see it, there is only one side in Europe operating on a different technical level, and that is Barcelona. Both tactically and technically, I see no massively obvious gaps between the rest. I do see that English teams just merge both physical and technical aspects to a more potent degree than Italian sides do currently.

That said, there are sides like Stoke who still operate a very neanderthal style of football, but if you look at the quality of the Premier League's lower sides - Blackpool, Bolton, Wolves, West Ham, West Btom and the like who once upon a time would have adopted a similar approach, I see these teams setting out tactically to play football the "right way". Perhaps it's time our Continental friends began qualifying the success of the Premier League less on simply tackling harder and running faster. It's not the 90's anymore Wink
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Murray

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Re: AC Milan 2010-11

Post by Murray on Fri Feb 18, 2011 2:07 pm

Pirlo wrote:

Modern football has also changed rapidly in five years, where the strengths of Serie A has been technique and tactical play and orchestral tempo, now the modern game is about pace and physique, it will take a while for italy to adopt to these new conditions, and it is a big culture shock to play against the English sides, Serie A teams just don't play with that level of intensity, stamina and consistent pace.



That is exactly why football isn't as good as it used to be. Speed & strength have become more important than skill.
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Jaime

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Re: AC Milan 2010-11

Post by Jaime on Fri Feb 18, 2011 2:33 pm

Murray wrote:
Pirlo wrote:

Modern football has also changed rapidly in five years, where the strengths of Serie A has been technique and tactical play and orchestral tempo, now the modern game is about pace and physique, it will take a while for italy to adopt to these new conditions, and it is a big culture shock to play against the English sides, Serie A teams just don't play with that level of intensity, stamina and consistent pace.



That is exactly why football isn't as good as it used to be. Speed & strength have become more important than skill.

Ale

Which is why you can't put together such a vast list like the one Pirlo made of current players from any particular league.
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Deluded F*ck™

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Re: AC Milan 2010-11

Post by Deluded F*ck™ on Fri Feb 18, 2011 2:43 pm

But it's natural that football has become like this, humans are bigger stronger, live for longer & benefit from more advanced medical practices & training methods.

It's far easier to improve a persons physical qualities than it is their natural abilities.

Italians shouldn't look to the English for inspiration, let alone the Germans, but rather the Spanish & Portuguese. With their implementation of the pressing game & supreme off the ball movement, they've also moved towards a more intense, physical brand of football,

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Kimbo

Number of posts : 38170
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Re: AC Milan 2010-11

Post by Kimbo on Fri Feb 18, 2011 2:52 pm

Noah and the Bale wrote:If this isn't your implication, then fair enough, but I'm going to argue this anyway: it's a massive disservice, and I also believe a noticeably inherent snobbery, not to credit the English league for bridging the tactical and technical gap. It's not enough to say teams like Spurs, Man United, Arsenal, Liverpool, Chelsea, (and lesser sides who have done well in the Europa League such as Fulham and Newcastle) only succeed against Italian (and Spanish) counterparts because of physicality and speed, ie the "modern game".

The fucking arrogance! The unbelievable fucking arrogance!
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Deluded F*ck™

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Re: AC Milan 2010-11

Post by Deluded F*ck™ on Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:08 pm

Kimbo wrote:
Noah and the Bale wrote:If this isn't your implication, then fair enough, but I'm going to argue this anyway: it's a massive disservice, and I also believe a noticeably inherent snobbery, not to credit the English league for bridging the tactical and technical gap. It's not enough to say teams like Spurs, Man United, Arsenal, Liverpool, Chelsea, (and lesser sides who have done well in the Europa League such as Fulham and Newcastle) only succeed against Italian (and Spanish) counterparts because of physicality and speed, ie the "modern game".

The fucking arrogance! The unbelievable fucking arrogance!

You've only been in the CL proper 2 twice, the last of which was 8 years ago. And we've already equalled your best performance from back then. Behave yourself.

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Re: AC Milan 2010-11

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