La Liga 2010/11 Season Thread

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DeLux

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Re: La Liga 2010/11 Season Thread

Post by DeLux on Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:19 am

Real Madrid ok

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christmasborocooper

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Re: La Liga 2010/11 Season Thread

Post by christmasborocooper on Mon Dec 20, 2010 12:06 pm

Mourinho will be rated as one of the greatest managers regardless of that sort of thing.
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Torrente

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Re: La Liga 2010/11 Season Thread

Post by Torrente on Mon Dec 20, 2010 12:34 pm

Mourinho: "This was an awful match and I am glad I wasn't one of the people who paid to see it. If I was at home watching it I would have switched to Eurosport to watch a game from the Vietnamese league" Laugh
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fcb

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Re: La Liga 2010/11 Season Thread

Post by fcb on Mon Dec 20, 2010 12:54 pm

At least he understands how most people (apart from fans of the teams he manages) feel about his style of football.
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Re: La Liga 2010/11 Season Thread

Post by bluenine on Mon Dec 20, 2010 1:04 pm

christmasborocooper wrote:Mourinho will be rated as one of the greatest managers regardless of that sort of thing.

Most likely... its not the style of play, but the success that makes a legendary manager... and Mou might eclipse everyone by the time he is through...
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Re: La Liga 2010/11 Season Thread

Post by Jaime on Mon Dec 20, 2010 1:06 pm

fcb wrote:

What a pathetic act. If anyone wants to know why he'll never be liked or rated as one of the greatest managers, it's because of disgraceful football like in this game, and his pathetic moaning after the game.


Quite different altogether. But I'm pretty sure most people already rate him as one of the greatest managers. Don't let your annoyance get in the way of objectivity.
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Re: La Liga 2010/11 Season Thread

Post by S4P on Mon Dec 20, 2010 1:15 pm

fcb wrote:Mourinho came out with a 13-point list of refereeing errors in his post-game press conference...and also lashed out against Valdano and his club, saying that "it's not only me who should defend our club against refereeing mistakes" lol!

What a pathetic act. If anyone wants to know why he'll never be liked or rated as one of the greatest managers, it's because of disgraceful football like in this game, and his pathetic moaning after the game.

Ferguson has spent his entire career moaning about decisions and targeting certain referees. Do you not regard him as one of the greatest managers?
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Re: La Liga 2010/11 Season Thread

Post by lampiao007 on Mon Dec 20, 2010 2:06 pm

Shhhhhhhhhh, they already forgot how they kicked Chelsea out of the CL final not so long ago.
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Re: La Liga 2010/11 Season Thread

Post by Jaime on Mon Dec 20, 2010 2:44 pm

And the hilarious thing is that Pepe Guardiola complains about the referees too! In spite of his lovely cardigans he is no saint!

For example, after the match against Getafe last year:

“Yo no hablo de los árbitros jamás, pero que tampoco la gente se confunda. Por el hecho de no decir nada, de no hablar, de no opinar, tampoco nos damos cuenta de lo que ha pasado (sic). El penalti otra vez a Leo es demasiado claro como para no pitarlo. Demasiado claro. Y nos jugamos mucho todos, no sólo el Madrid, ¿eh? También el Barça, también se lo juega”


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christmasborocooper

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Re: La Liga 2010/11 Season Thread

Post by christmasborocooper on Mon Dec 20, 2010 4:18 pm

bluenine wrote:
christmasborocooper wrote:Mourinho will be rated as one of the greatest managers regardless of that sort of thing.

Most likely... its not the style of play, but the success that makes a legendary manager... and Mou might eclipse everyone by the time he is through...


Not even just that, sure a lot of the time his style of player is not good to watch(though it has been at times)...as you say he has won most things you can win...and he's a character. Character + Trophies = Guaranteed to be rated as a great.
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Re: La Liga 2010/11 Season Thread

Post by Super Progress on Tue Dec 21, 2010 12:38 am

fcb wrote:

What a pathetic act. If anyone wants to know why he'll never be liked or rated as one of the greatest managers, it's because of disgraceful football like in this game, and his pathetic moaning after the game.


lol! lol!
Thanks for letting us know because I was wondering.
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Re: La Liga 2010/11 Season Thread

Post by Jaime on Sat Dec 25, 2010 11:52 am

HAPPY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE! Ale

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Re: La Liga 2010/11 Season Thread

Post by Guest on Sat Dec 25, 2010 5:59 pm

Merry Christmas to all santa
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fcb

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Re: La Liga 2010/11 Season Thread

Post by fcb on Mon Dec 27, 2010 6:43 pm

Sorry to spoil the festive atmosphere, but I just want to go back to the Mourinho discussion. A lot of people missed my point, esp. lampiao Doh It wasn't about good or bad refereeing at all.

For me a truly great manager is one that goes beyond just winning trophies. A lot of managers have won lots of trophies, because to win a trophy many other circumstances may fall into place for you. For example, Mourinho getting the biggest and richest squads in the English and Italian leagues (though of course you could say he made that opportunity for himself).

For me a great manager is one that contributes something to the game of football, someone who leaves a legacy of some sort. S4P raises a fair point about Ferguson's antics over the past couple of decades, but the legacy he will leave at Man. Utd. is undeniable. He is now a synonym for clubs giving managers stability and the ability to control all footballing aspects of the club.

What is Mourinho's legacy? Mind games? Spinning the press? Playing 10 men behind the ball in big games? Winding up opposition players, coaches, and fans? For me, the only special and positive (from the thing about him is his superb ability as a motivator of his own players, at the expense of everything else. But I don't consider that enough to make him a great.

Coming back to this outburst of his...he's far too happy to claim all the praise and plaudits when his team he succeeds, but when he's getting suspensions and criticism for his provocative actions, he doesn't like it? And hmm, let's see, what 'support' is he asking for from his club? (ie. Valdano)...oh yes, that they also pressure the referees via the media like he does Rolling Eyes

Please don't bother with cliched replies about what Pep does or what Barça do. This isn't about Barça, these are my thoughts about Mourinho.
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Re: La Liga 2010/11 Season Thread

Post by Jaime on Tue Dec 28, 2010 5:48 am

Obviously you don't have a good opinion of Mourinho kas but I think it is slightly coloured because of his clashes with Barcelona when he was at Chelsea and Inter and now that he is the boss of Real Madrid. His legacy? It's hard to say but to start with how about winning domestic titles in three different countries (so far), winning the CL with two different teams (so far), etc, etc. You can point to the 'mind games' but everyone does this. You can say he whinges about the press but who hasn't? You can say he's always had a lot of money to spend but all the big teams that win the big trophies have spent.

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Re: La Liga 2010/11 Season Thread

Post by Super Progress on Tue Dec 28, 2010 5:29 pm

fcb wrote:Sorry to spoil the festive atmosphere, but I just want to go back to the Mourinho discussion. A lot of people missed my point, esp. lampiao Doh It wasn't about good or bad refereeing at all.

For me a truly great manager is one that goes beyond just winning trophies. A lot of managers have won lots of trophies, because to win a trophy many other circumstances may fall into place for you. For example, Mourinho getting the biggest and richest squads in the English and Italian leagues (though of course you could say he made that opportunity for himself).

For me a great manager is one that contributes something to the game of football, someone who leaves a legacy of some sort. S4P raises a fair point about Ferguson's antics over the past couple of decades, but the legacy he will leave at Man. Utd. is undeniable. He is now a synonym for clubs giving managers stability and the ability to control all footballing aspects of the club.

What is Mourinho's legacy? Mind games? Spinning the press? Playing 10 men behind the ball in big games? Winding up opposition players, coaches, and fans? For me, the only special and positive (from the thing about him is his superb ability as a motivator of his own players, at the expense of everything else. But I don't consider that enough to make him a great.

Coming back to this outburst of his...he's far too happy to claim all the praise and plaudits when his team he succeeds, but when he's getting suspensions and criticism for his provocative actions, he doesn't like it? And hmm, let's see, what 'support' is he asking for from his club? (ie. Valdano)...oh yes, that they also pressure the referees via the media like he does Rolling Eyes

Please don't bother with cliched replies about what Pep does or what Barça do. This isn't about Barça, these are my thoughts about Mourinho.
Listen you can have your criteria for what constitutes a great manager all you want. If by your criteria Mourinho is not a great manager then fair enough. The same when I point to Messi(and others) not being great for my own criteria. What I found hilarious is when you say stuff like this:

fcb wrote:What at a pathetic act. If anyone wants to know why he'll never be liked or rated as one of the greatest managers, it's because of disgraceful football like in this game, and his pathetic moaning after the game.
At what meeting did this get decided? Biggrin

You obviously don't like thim which again is fair enough but don't pretend everybody else shares your opinion that so far Mourinho isn't on the road to being great because I don't think that is true. It would have made more sense if you said:

If anyone wants to know why he'll never be liked or rated as one of the greatest managers BY ME

Personally I think people will forget the "disgraceful" stuff when he is done and he will be remembered he as a great manager. So far he is on track to being the only coach to have won cl with 3 different teams. If he manages this he will have a great record that will be hard to imitate. His clashes with other players/coaches/etc will of course be talked about but I think the focus will be on titles won.
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Re: La Liga 2010/11 Season Thread

Post by lampiao007 on Tue Dec 28, 2010 6:20 pm

fcb, you where the one that based your dislike of Mourinho on him berating referees, and that on your opinion he will never be great because of this things.
I just pointed out to you what happened with Barca x Chelsea, and then all the vitriol of last year Inter x Barca. All managers are the same when things don't go their way. Mourinho just goes the extra mile and moans even when he wins. Nothing new in there.

Regardless of him ever being a great manager, well is achievements speak for himself:
Porto (2002–2004)
2003 Portuguese Liga
2003 Portuguese Cup
2003 UEFA Cup
2003 Portuguese Super Cup
2004 Portugese Liga
2004 UEFA Champions League
Chelsea (2004–2007)
2005 FA Premier League
2005 League Cup
2005 FA Community Shield
2006 FA Premier League
2007 League Cup
2007 FA Cup
Internazionale (2008–2010)
2008 Supercoppa Italiana
2009 Serie A
2010 Serie A
2010 Coppa Italia
2010 UEFA Champions League
The Treble (League, Cup and European trophy)
2002–03 with Porto: League, Cup and UEFA Cup
2009–10 with Internazionale: League, Cup and UEFA Champions League

Not bad I would say.

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Re: La Liga 2010/11 Season Thread

Post by Guest on Tue Dec 28, 2010 6:39 pm

La Liga stats so far this season:

Messi/Cristiano Ronaldo
Games played: 14/16
Minutes played: 1314/1515

Goals: 17/17
Freekicks: 0/3
Headers: 0/1
Penalties: 1/4
Goals scored at home: 7/12
Goals scored away: 10/5
Goals scored with right foot: 2/12
Goals scored with left foot: 15/4
Assists: 10/4

Total Shots: 69/111
Shots on goal: 36/43
Shots off post: 2/1
Shot percentage on goal: 52%/39%
Total Passes: 933/722
Complete Passes: 787/515
Incomplete Passes: 146/207
Pass Rate: 84%/71%
Balls Lost: 172/200
Balls won back: 33/21

Yellow cards: 1/2
Red cards: 0/0
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Re: La Liga 2010/11 Season Thread

Post by Hlebagone on Tue Dec 28, 2010 8:01 pm

RONALDO IS BETTER WITH BOTH FEET.
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Re: La Liga 2010/11 Season Thread

Post by fcb on Wed Dec 29, 2010 5:30 am

@Super: clearly that's what I meant...not just me but I was trying to say why others will also always put an "asterisk" next to Mourinho's name if/when he's mentioned as an all-time great. I apologize for the nuances in my sentences not being perfect on an Internet message board Rolling Eyes

Oh, and he's already "on track" to win the CL with "3" different clubs is he? Biggrin Maybe wait till you can break the Round of 16 curse before getting too excited eh?


@Jaime: if anything, I'd say my views on Mourinho are more "coloured" by the style of "football" he plays rather than any of his clashes with Barça. And anyway, pls don't sit there saying I have a coloured view of him, when you have an equally big, if not bigger, conflict of interest here.


-------------------------------------------


btw, coming back to the topic of the thread...the players' association is refusing to play the (5, including Barça) games scheduled for Jan. 2, and apparently the LFP says that if the games are not played on the 2nd, they won't be played on the 3rd either. Somehow, this would mean that the league gets extended to June 12 instead of the current scheduled finish of May 22. And I think that will cause a clash with the Copa America Doh

What would La Liga be without massive administrative fuck-ups? Erm This comes hot on the heels of the league reportedly implementing a new law forcing all teams to travel to away games 1 day before. ie. an "anti-Guardiola" law. Fuck that. It's unfair to impose on Pep and Barça how they should prepare for a game.
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Re: La Liga 2010/11 Season Thread

Post by christmasborocooper on Wed Dec 29, 2010 11:38 am

Mourinho will without question go down as a great. I cant believe someone is actually arguing against it.

Someone who has won as much as him will always go down as a great. Added to the fact he's been controversial in some countries, been something of a character everywhere he's been and got quotes coming out of his arse.
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Re: La Liga 2010/11 Season Thread

Post by Jaime on Wed Dec 29, 2010 1:03 pm

fcb wrote:
@Jaime: if anything, I'd say my views on Mourinho are more "coloured" by the style of "football" he plays rather than any of his clashes with Barça. And anyway, pls don't sit there saying I have a coloured view of him, when you have an equally big, if not bigger, conflict of interest here.


Perhaps. But then, just for the sake of argument, do you not consider a Maradona one of the greatest players because he took drugs and shot at news reporters? I don't think you have to be squeaky clean or have the most loveable personality to leave a 'legacy' in football. Don't get me wrong, I think Mourinho has got it all backwards in terms of his approach to football. But he has won loads (and of course I hope he wins loads at Madrid too even if at its core it is anti-football) and I don't think you can take that away from him, everything else apart. Everyone has faults (even Pep - how dare I bring him into this!!!!!) but I don't think that diminishes the accomplishments.
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christmasborocooper

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Re: La Liga 2010/11 Season Thread

Post by christmasborocooper on Wed Dec 29, 2010 1:16 pm

Could Pep not be considered a great because he's never done anything outside of Barca?

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Re: La Liga 2010/11 Season Thread

Post by Guest on Wed Dec 29, 2010 1:16 pm

Maradona was a proactive player, who did things people never thought was possible, if he was a reactive player who was good but not great and one shit loads while taking drugs and what not people would remember him but he wouldn't be thought of has a great.

Jose is a manager that sends out a shit load of reactive teams, he has done nothing to evolve the game much less revolutionize it. who has gone on to win the league in 3 different leagues where he has had the most money to spend and still didn't even play have decent football, while constantly talking shit an disrespecting people all over the place.

so a maradona, jose comparison has to be put in that context, saying that he will be remember as one of the better managers of his generation.

will he be remembered has say a greater manager than say Del bosque, i don't know.
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Re: La Liga 2010/11 Season Thread

Post by christmasborocooper on Wed Dec 29, 2010 1:36 pm

He's not going to be remembered as the greatest..but he will be a great.

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Re: La Liga 2010/11 Season Thread

Post by Guest on Wed Dec 29, 2010 1:44 pm

some would have you believe that he is the best of the bestest
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Re: La Liga 2010/11 Season Thread

Post by Super Progress on Wed Dec 29, 2010 7:54 pm

fcb wrote:@Super: clearly that's what I meant...not just me but I was trying to say why others will also always put an "asterisk" next to Mourinho's name if/when he's mentioned as an all-time great. I apologize for the nuances in my sentences not being perfect on an Internet message board Rolling Eyes

Im sorry but you didn't make that clear and this isn't about being pedantic either. In about 5-10 years time im quite sure that there will be no such asterisk next to his name. I could understand your point if I had heard this in the mainstream punditry or even among other fans but I haven't. I haven't seen any serious discussion about whether or not Mourinho will go down as being great. If anything as Messiah says he will might have an even bigger reputation then his record might deserve. So I completely disagree on this one.

fcb wrote:
Oh, and he's already "on track" to win the CL with "3" different clubs is he? Biggrin Maybe wait till you can break the Round of 16 curse before getting too excited eh?
Well he has won 2 titles so far with two different clubs and he tends to go after jobs where he knows he will have money and where there is a good team so hardly unlikely to say that for the rest of his career he might very well win one more Cl title. Whether he wins it with Real Madrid or not is irrelevant to my point.

Messiah wrote:Maradona was a proactive player, who did things people never thought was possible, if he was a reactive player who was good but not great and one shit loads while taking drugs and what not people would remember him but he wouldn't be thought of has a great.

Jose is a manager that sends out a shit load of reactive teams, he has done nothing to evolve the game much less revolutionize it. who has gone on to win the league in 3 different leagues where he has had the most money to spend and still didn't even play have decent football, while constantly talking shit an disrespecting people all over the place.

so a maradona, jose comparison has to be put in that context, saying that he will be remember as one of the better managers of his generation.

will he be remembered has say a greater manager than say Del bosque, i don't know.
Whether you are proactive or not doesn't matter to the point about whether or not you will be considered great hence:

Il Grande Inter

Many coaches have been negative and still gotten recognition. Capello will surely go down in history and he has never been too "proactive". Likewise with Lippi and Trapattoni.

Again you are confusing your opinion about should be true and not what is likely to be true. Generally(not always) myths or elevations to greatness come in the time when the person achieves something. Therefore the contemporary debate will play a big part in shaping the reputation. With that in mind look at the discussion about Mourinho compared to Del Bosque and you can't honestly tell me at this point in time that Mourinho won't be considered the greater of two, regardless of whether or not that is really the case.

Only thing imo that could change things in Del Bosque's favour would be a big decline from Mourinho and for Del Bosque to continue to win big titles. Considering that Mourinho has 13 years on Del Bosque I can't see it happening.

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Re: La Liga 2010/11 Season Thread

Post by Guest on Wed Dec 29, 2010 8:37 pm

Sure the likes of Capello and Lippi will be remember has great managers as well as Jose, but at the end of the day people will look at the likes of SAF anc Sacchi has being better managers, and their teams will be long remember after they are gone, because they went out and tried to make their teams proactive.

In a way its Joses ego that will make him be remember has one of the greats, more so that his football, if you compare him to the likes of capello and lippi, people will generally think of jose has being the better manager, despite that fact that the other two can match or better all his accomplishments.

but the fact that he is a bit of an egotist means that, people more often times than not take a look at his personality and the "mystique" that he has developed over the year, combined with his actually achievements which are many, but when people look at capello and lippi they tend to go straight to their accomplishments and don't quite look at it as highly has other managers, because of the football they play.

so his ego has generally worked well for him.

PS being a proactive style manager does matter when it comes to who will be remember has the greats.

Herrera
Michels
Sebes
Clough
Shankly

to name a few are pretty much the greatest managers of all time, of course i have left out a few, but of the list on Herrera is the only one that would be consider to be a reactive type manager, and he is probably only their because he tactically revolutionize in the game with his Catenaccio tactics, but at the end of the day most people don't remember his teams, while the like Holland and Hungary team will good down in infamy


so being a proactive style manager does matter as to where you stand in the history of the game, i didn't want to get barca or pep in this but for example sake i will, if say pep were to manager as long as jose and continue to win things the way he is going now, as well has jose

we all know who the world will remember has being the better manager 20 years from this. pro-activeness does matter.

Note, I'm not saying reactive type managers are/won't be remember has greats, but if you want to be remember as one of the greatest of the greats, you have to be a proactive manager or add something to the way the game is played during the course of your managerial career (Herrera)

Nor am i saying Jose isn't a great manager, well i said that already, but he will not be remembered has the greatest of his time the way some people try to make it out, he simply hasn't offered enough to the game bar a few cups and some mind games that only really work on crap managers and again is nothing new
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Re: La Liga 2010/11 Season Thread

Post by Super Progress on Wed Dec 29, 2010 9:41 pm

Ok but I was merely talking about being considered a great which is what Kas was talking about.

Mourinho will be a legend for exactly the reasons you mentioned. Basically you are flipping Kas' argument that Mourinho's "disgraceful" behaviour will count against him as being considered a great manager. In fact I believe, like you, that it will add greatly to his reputation. Like you said Capello types are too boring outside their achievments. Nonetheless Capello will be among the "greates of the great" anyway for his Milan team so I don't believe you have to be proactive.

You are applying the same thinking we have towards teams and players to coaches and I don't believe it applies. We tend to give more respect to coaches that have a more defensive style while coaches who have a laissez faire style coaching aren't considered as being "smart" enough.
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Re: La Liga 2010/11 Season Thread

Post by fcb on Sun Jan 02, 2011 12:01 pm

Football resumes today cheers

Athletic - Deportivo
Barcelona - Levante
Sporting - Málaga
Sevilla - Osasuna
Valencia - Espanyol

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Re: La Liga 2010/11 Season Thread

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