Serie A 2011-12

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blutgraetsche

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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by blutgraetsche on Mon Aug 29, 2011 6:21 pm

lol!

Just have to love your descricption of Italia abundance. It's that particular charme that makes it such an adorable country...for a tourist / outsider. A whole different thing if you actually have to live there and deal with those things every day.
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Murray

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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by Murray on Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:34 pm

The Italian government have dropped their new income tax on high earners. It might help solve the strike problem or not, who knows.

Maybe Galliani had a word with Berlusconi about it.
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Pirlo

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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by Pirlo on Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:20 pm

Taiwo looks an absolute liability so far, frighteningly so and is now out for a while. Tactically i'm delighted that Flamini is out for virtually the season as he's absolutely useless, but we really DO need another creative and dynamic player - we have vanBommel, Ambrosini and Gattuso to cover defensive duties, Emanuelson has been awful and would like him to go, Boateng and Aquilani (if fit) are fine, just get the feeling we have no genuine lockpicker in there.

I still maintain we need a left-back and a midfielder. The prospect of Antonini taking on Barcelona is humiliating.
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Murray

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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by Murray on Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:28 pm

What happened to Mr X? He seems to have disappeared, that is if he ever existed in the first place.
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bluenine

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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by bluenine on Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:21 pm

Pirlo wrote:Taiwo looks an absolute liability so far, frighteningly so and is now out for a while. Tactically i'm delighted that Flamini is out for virtually the season as he's absolutely useless, but we really DO need another creative and dynamic player - we have vanBommel, Ambrosini and Gattuso to cover defensive duties, Emanuelson has been awful and would like him to go, Boateng and Aquilani (if fit) are fine, just get the feeling we have no genuine lockpicker in there.

I still maintain we need a left-back and a midfielder. The prospect of Antonini taking on Barcelona is humiliating.
It will probably be Zambrotta on the left, Abate on the right...

But I won't put it past Baldie to buy Santon now that we have sold him...
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bluenine

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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by bluenine on Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:22 pm

Murray wrote:What happened to Mr X? He seems to have disappeared, that is if he ever existed in the first place.

It turned out to be Aquilani Razz

There are a lot of rumours still that Mister X is actually Mister Ex, Kaka.
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bluenine

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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by bluenine on Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:25 pm

abundance wrote:
Murray wrote:Apparently some of the presidents, especially Napoli's, are quite happy with the strike because they weren't happy with the fixture list. Each round of games will now be pushed back one week.
Sure. Most of them also don't mind starting the league ten days after the end of the transfer season, instead of three days before.

(and btw, politicians *love* this strike, as it helps to divert the public focus from the horror of our economy and government, and to funnel some of the peones' rage towards the rich players and away from the rich politicians and businessmen).


bluenine wrote:From what I hear, the fixtures have been called off.

I am with the clubs on this one. It is ridiculous that players are blackmailing clubs in this fashion, many of these are multi-million earning players. And what are the two key issues?

1. AIC wants the "surplus players" to have the right to train with the first team. Why the hell should they? If the coach wants someone to train with the primavera, its his bloody decision.

2. The additional tax in Italy for people earning more than 90k pa, the AIC wants the clubs to bear it. Again, why the hell? Those people who are earning more than this amount in any profression are having to bear this tax themselves, so why should footballers be treated differently?

This is ridiculous.

Blue, I think that's a bit more complex than that.
Sure the main contention points are those two you highlighted, but it's not about that alone, and the issue at large is that footballers' collective contract is expired since almost one year and hasn't been renewed yet.

The footballers' association (AIC) announced a preemptive strike in the winter, fearing the clubs' Lega wouldn't be interested in discussing their request in the upcoming negotiations. They got attention and then backpedaled from that silly intention, sitting in the meetings.
But in the end, meetings were held in January, then in May, and finally in August, and the Lega apparently never considered any of the AIC requests.
In the last days there's been some effort from a couple of club owners and the AIC to promote a compromise solution of a one year long temporary contract, to avoid the stalemate that was leading to the strike, but Lega president Beretta plainly said that the club were only interested to sign on their own unmodified conditions.
Since May, AIC lead is former player Damiano Tommasi, which has always come on as a cultured and sensible guy, and previously was esteemed lawyer and former player Sergio Campana, who held the post for 25 years (that is to say that's unlikely the negotiations failed simply for dumb hot-headness on the AIC part).


Regarding those two main points:

1. I strongly disagree with you on this one. Clubs hire and pay senior players to use them in their senior teams. Apart from some case of injury recovery, there's no technical point in having them train with the juniores. This is a measure that has been used mostly to put pressure on a player (as going to Primavera equals to be put in a limbo of forgotten souls), for disciplinary reasons, or for making them accept some club decision like an unwanted transfer. Now, disciplinary issues are already well covered by player contracts and general work legislation, so what remains is basically a mobbing tool.
The Lega gave itself away on this one, declaring that "players have nothing to fear as mobbing cases would be covered by general mobbing law which supersede any contract clause" and that "similar clauses have been in effect in the last 25 years, and very few mobbing cases have arose". But the very point in contention is that if players sign a new contract which explicitly states that grouping players for training is a technical prerogative of the coaching staff, it would be much more difficult for them to mount a mobbing case.


2. As a freelancer with working-class earnings who diligently pays all his taxes, I couldn't agree more with you at first: "what the hell" indeed, just eat the tax and keep earning millions for training four hours a day and partying.
But, if you look closely, theirs isn't a request to be exempted from the tax. The issue is about who's going to pay it, the players or the clubs. The doubt arises since many players have contracts that report net wages, instead of gross wages. Apparently this is a trick that brings some technical accounting benefit for both parties. So the players think that the club should pay this one-off tax. I don't think they've got much of a case, as this is an exceptional "contribution" which is not technically a tax (by the way, it can be partially deducted from the regular taxes). But as usual in Italy, legislation isn't clear, and the actual decree is still being finalized, so there's uncertainty. The clubs wants the players to sign off that any form of exceptional taxation is going to be paid by the players no matter what their personal contracts say. So that's not much a case of the rich wanting to be richer at the expenses of the poor, but just at the expenses of some other rich.
You could still not like the fact that rich players are willing to put up a show-stopping strike just for greed, but remember, the players are striking for the contract, which wasn't signed in January or May because of the no-compromise policy of the Lega, and it's only the Lega that, coming August, wanted to insert a clear-all clause in the contract, instead of waiting for legal counsel on the final version of a tax norm that was introduced in the summer.

And btw, a final note on the tax thing (sry cause this post is already too long): you write "Those people who are earning more than this amount in any profression are having to bear this tax themselves, so why should footballers be treated differently?"
Please remember this is Italy - not your regular western country.

Do you know there are just roughly 500.000 people in Italy declaring an income over 90.000 euro?
And those declaring over 150.000 euro (the higher braket for this tax) are just 140.000? And of those, 80% are high rank current and retired employees.
This leaves roughly 30.000 entrepreneurs and self-employed professionals that are earning more than 150k per year in the whole country.
This should make for a rather proletarian country, shouldn't it? But you don't get this impression walking in the city centres down here.
You should also know that, in Italy, evading taxes for less than 206.000 euro gross amount is *not* a criminal offense - and besides, even evading more is rarely punished due to very low prescription terms (five years or so, which don't stop when the actual trial starts).
And regarding this new tax decree, a nice thing to know is that the very same politicians that wrote it did put a hook in the text that exempt from it a major part of their representative wages (which are the highest in Europe).
For a foreigner this changes little about Serie A footballers, greedy players are greedy, but for an Italian... in my sports bar chats, I'm repeating to everyone blaming the players striking: before ranting, just tell me you pay all your taxes, and then that you didn't vote for any of the parties that are enabling this since 17 years (which includes the major opposition party...).
Excellent post, Adundance, I conceed.

Btw, how about turning this into that long awaited article for my website? bounce
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Murray

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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by Murray on Fri Sep 09, 2011 7:44 pm

Milan - Abbiati, Abate, Nesta, Thiago Silva, Antonini, Gattuso, Ambrosini, Aquilani, Boateng, Ibrahimovic, Cassano.

Lazio - Bizzarri; Konko, Biava, Dias, Zauri; Ledesma, Brocchi; Mauri, Hernanes, Cissè; Klose.
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Murray

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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by Murray on Fri Sep 09, 2011 7:46 pm

http://www.firstrowsports.eu/watch/82656/3/watch-ac-milan-vs-lazio.html
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Kroos

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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by Kroos on Fri Sep 09, 2011 7:59 pm

KLOSE 1:0

what a stunner
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Tarun

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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by Tarun on Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:05 pm

What a goal by Klose! And Cisse had a chance to bury another one
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Murray

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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by Murray on Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:05 pm

Should have been 2-0
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Murray

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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by Murray on Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:07 pm

Now it is

Cisse
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Tarun

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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by Tarun on Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:08 pm

WTF...its 2 for Lazio!!!
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Kroos

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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by Kroos on Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:09 pm

aqua
ambro
gattuso

thats facking 2nd rate midfield in europe

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Forza Italia!Forza Milan!

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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by Forza Italia!Forza Milan! on Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:13 pm

Ambro and Gattuso maybe; Aquilani has been decent so far. Either way, for the most part the whole team looks second rate atm.

EDIT: point proven- Aquilani sets up a great goal.


Last edited by Forza Italia!Forza Milan! on Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Murray

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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by Murray on Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:15 pm

Ibraaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
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Kroos

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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by Kroos on Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:16 pm

great ball from boateng into the box
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Tarun

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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by Tarun on Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:16 pm

What a cracker of a start to the season! Milan pull one back. Great ball by Aqua
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Kroos

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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by Kroos on Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:17 pm

oh my fault, then it was aqua
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Kroos

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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by Kroos on Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:18 pm

Forza Italia!Forza Milan! wrote:Ambro and Gattuso maybe; Aquilani has been decent so far. Either way, for the most part the whole team looks second rate atm.

EDIT: point proven- Aquilani sets up a great goal.

yeah that was a great ball

why was vanbommel benched?
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Kroos

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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by Kroos on Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:19 pm

lol 2:2
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Tarun

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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by Tarun on Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:19 pm

Van Bommel is on for Gatusso after the latter picked up a knock
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Tarun

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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by Tarun on Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:23 pm

Very shaky defending by Milan so far. Hernandez could've buried a third for Lazio
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Murray

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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by Murray on Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:25 pm

The inevitable van Bommel yellow didn't take very long
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Murray

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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by Murray on Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:40 pm

Nesta needs to be put out of his misery.

God help him if he plays against Barca.
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blutgraetsche

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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by blutgraetsche on Fri Sep 09, 2011 11:14 pm

Kroos wrote:KLOSE 1:0

what a stunner

Il Bomber...the other way around. Ale
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Ricardo Jol

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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by Ricardo Jol on Sat Sep 10, 2011 7:46 am

Tarun wrote:Van Bommel is on for Gatusso after the latter picked up a knock
why van bommel did not start?
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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by Tarun on Sat Sep 10, 2011 9:15 am

Only Allegri can answer that. IMO as Aquilani was playing in the center as, Allegri wanted to give him protection with hardmen like Ambrosini and Gattuso.
Ricardo Jol wrote:
Tarun wrote:Van Bommel is on for Gatusso after the latter picked up a knock
why van bommel did not start?
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Ricardo Jol

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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by Ricardo Jol on Sat Sep 10, 2011 10:44 am

Tarun wrote:Only Allegri can answer that. IMO as Aquilani was playing in the center as, Allegri wanted to give him protection with hardmen like Ambrosini and Gattuso.
Ricardo Jol wrote:
Tarun wrote:Van Bommel is on for Gatusso after the latter picked up a knock
why van bommel did not start?
all right, good luck with former Den Haag player Elia. hoop he'll make it in Turin!

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