Serie A 2011-12

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Forza Italia!Forza Milan!

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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by Forza Italia!Forza Milan! on Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:41 am

abundance wrote:
Forza Italia!Forza Milan! wrote:Juve with their astute sense in building a stadium.
Well, more than astute it was almost mandatory - their old stadium was awful, empty and costly to maintain.
San Siro, with all its age, pitch and municipal ownership issues, is another story.

The new one is surely a great advancement for them, especially in terms of atmosphere, but it's not going to be game changing for what concerns revenues.
According to swissramble, they're expecting around ~35mil/year of matchday revenues, while Milan and Inter are making around 30mil each from San Siro.
Good for them, but it's not putting Juve in another ballpark.

True, but I have also read that over time their revenue will increase. This is only their first year with the new stadium. I would be curious to see how Juve maximize their potential once they are in the CL again.

I think Juve's goal is to earn about 20% of their total revenue from matchday earnings.
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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by gone on Wed Mar 28, 2012 7:07 am

Fey wrote:First of all I want to congratulate Juventus with their win on Sunday.

I havent been entertained by a Serie A match in ages. Juventus are BY FAR the best footballing team in Italy and if they had a World Class CF like Zlatan, it would have been their 30th title for sure. Pirlo was such a beast again. Even my youth hero Del Piero still showed his class.

But this game was actually watchable, for once it didnt look like I travelled back to the 80's while watching a Serie A match. Postive football, and a filled stadium that had atmosphere. Great to see Juve make their comeback, which also means the return of Italy and the Serie A at the top. I didnt realise there was a 21st century Italy, but Juventus showed there is! A Juventussaince!

As for Inter, Lawl. What a sorry ass team. And now they hired a coach, who got totally dicked on Sunday, but with luck reached the penatly shootout and won it. Sounds like the perfect coach for them afterall Biggrin

I guess you don't watch a lot of Serie A fey.
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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by Tarun on Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:19 am

It does change things for Juventus where revenues are concerned. Before the new stadium, our match-day revenues were just 8% of total income but after the new arena they would be 15%. From Juve's perspective, almost double of the previous figure, albiet of course the figures are not better than what the Milan teams earn. For me the game changing aspect is that this puts Juventus ahead of any other team in Serie A in terms of development and modernization by at least 3-4 years. And that too if any other team has any plans at the moment. With FFP coming into force soon it will be all the more difficult, financially, for clubs to undertake such efforts. So from a timing point of view the new stadia could not have been better planned. Also note that it is a known fact that Turin is not exactly at the same level as Milan when it comes to population, tourist travel or fans traveling in etc. owing to the weather. And that a larger base of Juve fans actually resides outside of Turin. That is one of the major reasons for smaller crowds in Turin and that cannot be helped beyond a certain extent.

With 32 mil expected this year, the number should only rise if we will play the CL next year

abundance wrote:The new one is surely a great advancement for them, especially in terms of atmosphere, but it's not going to be game changing for what concerns revenues.
According to swissramble, they're expecting around ~35mil/year of matchday revenues, while Milan and Inter are making around 30mil each from San Siro.
Good for them, but it's not putting Juve in another ballpark.
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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by bluenine on Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:28 pm

messiah wrote:whats up with inter after Calciopoli which had their main rivals fighting with one hand tied behind their backs for years, basically handing them five titles, and not to mention, them being the beneficiary of the worst transfer in history.

One would think they would have build such a great platform that they would be dominate power in Italian football for years to come.

Instead they are back to being their normal self, at the sight of juve and milan coming back.
Yawn. Who tied Milan's hand behind their back for 4 years again? Rolling Eyes

WUM alert Razz

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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by bluenine on Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:35 pm

I am with Tarun on this. Abundance is right that Juve had to do this, but the fact that they have puts them in a great position of advantage for the future. Imagine Juve, who are used to playing in empty stadiums, now have a packed stadium and are going to earn more than Inter or Milan from matchday revenues... who would have thought that possible a few years back, when the Milanese clubs used to make 4-5 times more. And Juve are doing this with a stadium of half the capacity of San Siro!

Playing to a packed stadium behind the team can also have a sporting impact, as we have seen this season. Juve have just converted their biggest disadvantage (relative to their Milanese rivals) into actually an advantage, I think that is game changing to some extent.

However, I am not sure FFP impacts development of stadiums, I think clauses exist by which such development could fall outside the purview of FFP.

Tarun wrote:It does change things for Juventus where revenues are concerned. Before the new stadium, our match-day revenues were just 8% of total income but after the new arena they would be 15%. From Juve's perspective, almost double of the previous figure, albiet of course the figures are not better than what the Milan teams earn. For me the game changing aspect is that this puts Juventus ahead of any other team in Serie A in terms of development and modernization by at least 3-4 years. And that too if any other team has any plans at the moment. With FFP coming into force soon it will be all the more difficult, financially, for clubs to undertake such efforts. So from a timing point of view the new stadia could not have been better planned. Also note that it is a known fact that Turin is not exactly at the same level as Milan when it comes to population, tourist travel or fans traveling in etc. owing to the weather. And that a larger base of Juve fans actually resides outside of Turin. That is one of the major reasons for smaller crowds in Turin and that cannot be helped beyond a certain extent.

With 32 mil expected this year, the number should only rise if we will play the CL next year

abundance wrote:The new one is surely a great advancement for them, especially in terms of atmosphere, but it's not going to be game changing for what concerns revenues.
According to swissramble, they're expecting around ~35mil/year of matchday revenues, while Milan and Inter are making around 30mil each from San Siro.
Good for them, but it's not putting Juve in another ballpark.
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Forza Italia!Forza Milan!

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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by Forza Italia!Forza Milan! on Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:43 pm

Yeah and Juve's goal in the near future is to earn 20% of their revenue from gate receipts.

One of the club's suits said that, can't remember which.

It's a shame that Milan can't make any headway with an obstinate city council, but a lot of the problem is Berlu's unwillingness to get things pushed through. Now that he has returned as President, perhaps things will change. The noise is certainly a lot more positive.

In the near future, parts of the San Siro will be rebuilt, and then Galliani has said "we will see."

Roma have already talked to a consulting company to try and pick a suitable place for a stadium. I think it's great for Serie A, and long, long overdue.
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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by bluenine on Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:40 pm

Fey wrote:As for Inter, Lawl. What a sorry ass team. And now they hired a coach, who got totally dicked on Sunday, but with luck reached the penatly shootout and won it. Sounds like the perfect coach for them afterall Biggrin

Fey, you sound so bitter about the NextGen final result... and I thought you hated Ajax? scratch

These dutch rivalries are so complicated...
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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by Fey on Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:21 pm

Bogdan Stancu wrote:
Fey wrote:First of all I want to congratulate Juventus with their win on Sunday.

I havent been entertained by a Serie A match in ages. Juventus are BY FAR the best footballing team in Italy and if they had a World Class CF like Zlatan, it would have been their 30th title for sure. Pirlo was such a beast again. Even my youth hero Del Piero still showed his class.

But this game was actually watchable, for once it didnt look like I travelled back to the 80's while watching a Serie A match. Postive football, and a filled stadium that had atmosphere. Great to see Juve make their comeback, which also means the return of Italy and the Serie A at the top. I didnt realise there was a 21st century Italy, but Juventus showed there is! A Juventussaince!

As for Inter, Lawl. What a sorry ass team. And now they hired a coach, who got totally dicked on Sunday, but with luck reached the penatly shootout and won it. Sounds like the perfect coach for them afterall Biggrin

I guess you don't watch a lot of Serie A fey.

You are right! But it takes two to tango. It's just that when I watch a game, I like it when it has atmosphere as well. And this is what Juventus has these days. And Juventus IMO play the best football, they just seem to lack a quality CF hence they draw so many games. Not saying Juventus is doing everything right, cause I dont get why you sign Elia for millionbillion and then never even give him a chance. At least he can get past a man, and can deliver an assist.
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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by Fey on Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:33 pm

bluenine wrote:
Fey wrote:As for Inter, Lawl. What a sorry ass team. And now they hired a coach, who got totally dicked on Sunday, but with luck reached the penatly shootout and won it. Sounds like the perfect coach for them afterall Biggrin

Fey, you sound so bitter about the NextGen final result... and I thought you hated Ajax? scratch

These dutch rivalries are so complicated...

Oh, believe me Bluenine, you wont have to doubt my dislike for ajax.

However, I'm not the biggest fan of Catenaccio either. You see, the point of the youth and an academy in my eyes is not to win trophies but to improve the individuel player in such a way that he becomes valuable for the first team. And this is what Inter didnt do in the final. It was pure anti-football, and all about getting a result like something really mattered. So you won a trophy, does that make your academy succesfull? In my eyes it doesnt, cause bar that Bessa kid, I couldnt see any true talent. So what are those players going to add to your first team?

But considering you are Inter, in some weird way this is how an academy must be run I guess. Cause even with the first team getting a result is all that matters it seems. So if getting results no matter what is Inter's way of running a youth academy then it's succesful.
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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by bluenine on Thu Mar 29, 2012 12:24 am

Fey wrote:
bluenine wrote:
Fey wrote:As for Inter, Lawl. What a sorry ass team. And now they hired a coach, who got totally dicked on Sunday, but with luck reached the penatly shootout and won it. Sounds like the perfect coach for them afterall Biggrin

Fey, you sound so bitter about the NextGen final result... and I thought you hated Ajax? scratch

These dutch rivalries are so complicated...

Oh, believe me Bluenine, you wont have to doubt my dislike for ajax.

However, I'm not the biggest fan of Catenaccio either. You see, the point of the youth and an academy in my eyes is not to win trophies but to improve the individuel player in such a way that he becomes valuable for the first team. And this is what Inter didnt do in the final. It was pure anti-football, and all about getting a result like something really mattered. So you won a trophy, does that make your academy succesfull? In my eyes it doesnt, cause bar that Bessa kid, I couldnt see any true talent. So what are those players going to add to your first team?

But considering you are Inter, in some weird way this is how an academy must be run I guess. Cause even with the first team getting a result is all that matters it seems. So if getting results no matter what is Inter's way of running a youth academy then it's succesful.

Of course it is. I rather my club win championships, than do circus tricks for entertainment. I don't care whether its the youth team or the senior team, playing in a competition is about winning. IMO training is for development, the best thing you can learn from a competition is how to win as a team. I guess we both are different like that...

Sure, I will admit that Sporting and Ajax have more talented individuals in their youth team than ours, perhaps even Barca (btw, Sporting was by a distance the best team at NextGen, did you see that kid Betinho? Wow!). But to say that Bessa is the only true talent Inter had is a bit of a stretch. Crisetig is a talent too, so is Longo. I can also see Alborno, Spendlhofer, Duncan, M'Baye, etc graduating to the senior team with a little development. And our most expensive youth player (Tassi) didn't even play due to injury.

Anyways, apart from Betinho & Bessa, I was also pretty impressed by Fischer of Ajax & Dongue of Barca - 4 names to watch out for.
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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by gone on Thu Mar 29, 2012 11:25 am

bluenine wrote:
Fey wrote:
bluenine wrote:
Fey wrote:As for Inter, Lawl. What a sorry ass team. And now they hired a coach, who got totally dicked on Sunday, but with luck reached the penatly shootout and won it. Sounds like the perfect coach for them afterall Biggrin

Fey, you sound so bitter about the NextGen final result... and I thought you hated Ajax? scratch

These dutch rivalries are so complicated...

Oh, believe me Bluenine, you wont have to doubt my dislike for ajax.

However, I'm not the biggest fan of Catenaccio either. You see, the point of the youth and an academy in my eyes is not to win trophies but to improve the individuel player in such a way that he becomes valuable for the first team. And this is what Inter didnt do in the final. It was pure anti-football, and all about getting a result like something really mattered. So you won a trophy, does that make your academy succesfull? In my eyes it doesnt, cause bar that Bessa kid, I couldnt see any true talent. So what are those players going to add to your first team?

But considering you are Inter, in some weird way this is how an academy must be run I guess. Cause even with the first team getting a result is all that matters it seems. So if getting results no matter what is Inter's way of running a youth academy then it's succesful.

Of course it is. I rather my club win championships, than do circus tricks for entertainment. I don't care whether its the youth team or the senior team, playing in a competition is about winning. IMO training is for development, the best thing you can learn from a competition is how to win as a team. I guess we both are different like that...

Sure, I will admit that Sporting and Ajax have more talented individuals in their youth team than ours, perhaps even Barca (btw, Sporting was by a distance the best team at NextGen, did you see that kid Betinho? Wow!). But to say that Bessa is the only true talent Inter had is a bit of a stretch. Crisetig is a talent too, so is Longo. I can also see Alborno, Spendlhofer, Duncan, M'Baye, etc graduating to the senior team with a little development. And our most expensive youth player (Tassi) didn't even play due to injury.

Anyways, apart from Betinho & Bessa, I was also pretty impressed by Fischer of Ajax & Dongue of Barca - 4 names to watch out for.

I agree with fey here. A youth team is set up to develop new players, not win trophies. This is why NOBODY cares about U21 or U18 tournaments.
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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by gone on Thu Mar 29, 2012 11:30 am

Fey wrote:
Bogdan Stancu wrote:
Fey wrote:First of all I want to congratulate Juventus with their win on Sunday.

I havent been entertained by a Serie A match in ages. Juventus are BY FAR the best footballing team in Italy and if they had a World Class CF like Zlatan, it would have been their 30th title for sure. Pirlo was such a beast again. Even my youth hero Del Piero still showed his class.

But this game was actually watchable, for once it didnt look like I travelled back to the 80's while watching a Serie A match. Postive football, and a filled stadium that had atmosphere. Great to see Juve make their comeback, which also means the return of Italy and the Serie A at the top. I didnt realise there was a 21st century Italy, but Juventus showed there is! A Juventussaince!

As for Inter, Lawl. What a sorry ass team. And now they hired a coach, who got totally dicked on Sunday, but with luck reached the penatly shootout and won it. Sounds like the perfect coach for them afterall Biggrin

I guess you don't watch a lot of Serie A fey.

You are right! But it takes two to tango. It's just that when I watch a game, I like it when it has atmosphere as well. And this is what Juventus has these days. And Juventus IMO play the best football, they just seem to lack a quality CF hence they draw so many games. Not saying Juventus is doing everything right, cause I dont get why you sign Elia for millionbillion and then never even give him a chance. At least he can get past a man, and can deliver an assist.

You should watch Napoli more. IMO they play the most entertaining football in Italy now.

Don't be fooled by the draws. They should have lost some of those and they didn't dominate but couldn't score.

I can use the same argument as you: if Milan gets a Pirlo/Xavi/Iniesta type players in midfield we would be a much better team.
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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by Tarun on Thu Mar 29, 2012 11:49 am

Napoli indeed play an exciting brand of football but at the same time it would be unfair to say that Juventus are not exciting to watch. The possession and pressing gameplay has not gone unnoticed... and by many a pundits too who have quite often admired the new Juventus. And it was Milan themselves who did not extend Pirlo's contract and we got him for free. I don't really care about this furore being created about the number of draws that Juve has. Sure we need a world-class Prima Punta who can finish more regularly. That said we are still in second place and that would not have come about if we did not win games regularly. The key difference here is that Napoli play exciting football but they are less effective when it comes to grinding results. And that does matter! There has to be a balance between exciting football and results. For that, at present Juventus has the meanest defense in the league.

Bogdan Stancu wrote:
Fey wrote:
Bogdan Stancu wrote:
Fey wrote:First of all I want to congratulate Juventus with their win on Sunday.

I havent been entertained by a Serie A match in ages. Juventus are BY FAR the best footballing team in Italy and if they had a World Class CF like Zlatan, it would have been their 30th title for sure. Pirlo was such a beast again. Even my youth hero Del Piero still showed his class.

But this game was actually watchable, for once it didnt look like I travelled back to the 80's while watching a Serie A match. Postive football, and a filled stadium that had atmosphere. Great to see Juve make their comeback, which also means the return of Italy and the Serie A at the top. I didnt realise there was a 21st century Italy, but Juventus showed there is! A Juventussaince!

As for Inter, Lawl. What a sorry ass team. And now they hired a coach, who got totally dicked on Sunday, but with luck reached the penatly shootout and won it. Sounds like the perfect coach for them afterall Biggrin

I guess you don't watch a lot of Serie A fey.

You are right! But it takes two to tango. It's just that when I watch a game, I like it when it has atmosphere as well. And this is what Juventus has these days. And Juventus IMO play the best football, they just seem to lack a quality CF hence they draw so many games. Not saying Juventus is doing everything right, cause I dont get why you sign Elia for millionbillion and then never even give him a chance. At least he can get past a man, and can deliver an assist.

You should watch Napoli more. IMO they play the most entertaining football in Italy now.

Don't be fooled by the draws. They should have lost some of those and they didn't dominate but couldn't score.

I can use the same argument as you: if Milan gets a Pirlo/Xavi/Iniesta type players in midfield we would be a much better team.
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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by bluenine on Thu Mar 29, 2012 1:25 pm

Bogdan Stancu wrote:
bluenine wrote:
Fey wrote:
bluenine wrote:
Fey wrote:As for Inter, Lawl. What a sorry ass team. And now they hired a coach, who got totally dicked on Sunday, but with luck reached the penatly shootout and won it. Sounds like the perfect coach for them afterall Biggrin

Fey, you sound so bitter about the NextGen final result... and I thought you hated Ajax? scratch

These dutch rivalries are so complicated...

Oh, believe me Bluenine, you wont have to doubt my dislike for ajax.

However, I'm not the biggest fan of Catenaccio either. You see, the point of the youth and an academy in my eyes is not to win trophies but to improve the individuel player in such a way that he becomes valuable for the first team. And this is what Inter didnt do in the final. It was pure anti-football, and all about getting a result like something really mattered. So you won a trophy, does that make your academy succesfull? In my eyes it doesnt, cause bar that Bessa kid, I couldnt see any true talent. So what are those players going to add to your first team?

But considering you are Inter, in some weird way this is how an academy must be run I guess. Cause even with the first team getting a result is all that matters it seems. So if getting results no matter what is Inter's way of running a youth academy then it's succesful.

Of course it is. I rather my club win championships, than do circus tricks for entertainment. I don't care whether its the youth team or the senior team, playing in a competition is about winning. IMO training is for development, the best thing you can learn from a competition is how to win as a team. I guess we both are different like that...

Sure, I will admit that Sporting and Ajax have more talented individuals in their youth team than ours, perhaps even Barca (btw, Sporting was by a distance the best team at NextGen, did you see that kid Betinho? Wow!). But to say that Bessa is the only true talent Inter had is a bit of a stretch. Crisetig is a talent too, so is Longo. I can also see Alborno, Spendlhofer, Duncan, M'Baye, etc graduating to the senior team with a little development. And our most expensive youth player (Tassi) didn't even play due to injury.

Anyways, apart from Betinho & Bessa, I was also pretty impressed by Fischer of Ajax & Dongue of Barca - 4 names to watch out for.

I agree with fey here. A youth team is set up to develop new players, not win trophies. This is why NOBODY cares about U21 or U18 tournaments.

I don't think that is all what Fey is implying... read the part I highlighted, Fey is implying that even for the first team, it shouldn't be just about the result. ie Milan should have attacked Barca yesterday instead of a defensive formation, even if it meant almost certain defeat.

With regards to the Primavera, I disagree with you. This isn't the U11 or the U10 "training" games. The same principles that apply to the senior team apply here IMO, that training sessions are for development, and tournaments are for winning. Because learning how to win games and the tactical requirement that goes behind it, is almost as important at this stage as further development of ball skills. Successful youth teams in Italy have always had a strong correlation to talent developed for the senior game (except in the last few years, where talented youth have started stagnating).

The main reason why few people care about U18 or U21 tournaments is not because its not about winning - its primarily the same reason few people care about the Serie C or the women's game - the skill on show is just not at par with Serie A or the Champions league.
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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by fcb on Thu Mar 29, 2012 1:35 pm

bluenine wrote:
Bogdan Stancu wrote:
bluenine wrote:
Fey wrote:
bluenine wrote:
Fey wrote:As for Inter, Lawl. What a sorry ass team. And now they hired a coach, who got totally dicked on Sunday, but with luck reached the penatly shootout and won it. Sounds like the perfect coach for them afterall Biggrin

Fey, you sound so bitter about the NextGen final result... and I thought you hated Ajax? scratch

These dutch rivalries are so complicated...

Oh, believe me Bluenine, you wont have to doubt my dislike for ajax.

However, I'm not the biggest fan of Catenaccio either. You see, the point of the youth and an academy in my eyes is not to win trophies but to improve the individuel player in such a way that he becomes valuable for the first team. And this is what Inter didnt do in the final. It was pure anti-football, and all about getting a result like something really mattered. So you won a trophy, does that make your academy succesfull? In my eyes it doesnt, cause bar that Bessa kid, I couldnt see any true talent. So what are those players going to add to your first team?

But considering you are Inter, in some weird way this is how an academy must be run I guess. Cause even with the first team getting a result is all that matters it seems. So if getting results no matter what is Inter's way of running a youth academy then it's succesful.

Of course it is. I rather my club win championships, than do circus tricks for entertainment. I don't care whether its the youth team or the senior team, playing in a competition is about winning. IMO training is for development, the best thing you can learn from a competition is how to win as a team. I guess we both are different like that...

Sure, I will admit that Sporting and Ajax have more talented individuals in their youth team than ours, perhaps even Barca (btw, Sporting was by a distance the best team at NextGen, did you see that kid Betinho? Wow!). But to say that Bessa is the only true talent Inter had is a bit of a stretch. Crisetig is a talent too, so is Longo. I can also see Alborno, Spendlhofer, Duncan, M'Baye, etc graduating to the senior team with a little development. And our most expensive youth player (Tassi) didn't even play due to injury.

Anyways, apart from Betinho & Bessa, I was also pretty impressed by Fischer of Ajax & Dongue of Barca - 4 names to watch out for.

I agree with fey here. A youth team is set up to develop new players, not win trophies. This is why NOBODY cares about U21 or U18 tournaments.

I don't think that is all what Fey is implying... read the part I highlighted, Fey is implying that even for the first team, it shouldn't be just about the result. ie Milan should have attacked Barca yesterday instead of a defensive formation, even if it meant almost certain defeat.

With regards to the Primavera, I disagree with you. This isn't the U11 or the U10 "training" games. The same principles that apply to the senior team apply here IMO, that training sessions are for development, and tournaments are for winning. Because learning how to win games and the tactical requirement that goes behind it, is almost as important at this stage as further development of ball skills.
Successful youth teams in Italy have always had a strong correlation to talent developed for the senior game (except in the last few years, where talented youth have started stagnating).

The main reason why few people care about U18 or U21 tournaments is not because its not about winning - its primarily the same reason few people care about the Serie C or the women's game - the skill on show is just not at par with Serie A or the Champions league.


I'd be surprised if you find anyone, especially youth football coaches, who agrees with that. Yes, learning tactics and systems starts to matter at this age, but winning tournaments (particularly at club level...int'l does have a bit more 'prestige' ) doesn't mean much at all in terms of 'preparing you for winning at the senior level' Doh
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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by Super Progress on Thu Mar 29, 2012 1:48 pm

I agree with Bluenine here and learning the tactical part of how to position yourself for the team and being able to adjust the style according to each game is important and if you are teaching this to players who are already talented then great. As I understand Bluenine though Inter were hardly just camping outside their defence in every game so I think this approach makes sense.
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bluenine

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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by bluenine on Thu Mar 29, 2012 2:38 pm

fcb wrote:
bluenine wrote:
Bogdan Stancu wrote:
bluenine wrote:
Fey wrote:
bluenine wrote:
Fey wrote:As for Inter, Lawl. What a sorry ass team. And now they hired a coach, who got totally dicked on Sunday, but with luck reached the penatly shootout and won it. Sounds like the perfect coach for them afterall Biggrin

Fey, you sound so bitter about the NextGen final result... and I thought you hated Ajax? scratch

These dutch rivalries are so complicated...

Oh, believe me Bluenine, you wont have to doubt my dislike for ajax.

However, I'm not the biggest fan of Catenaccio either. You see, the point of the youth and an academy in my eyes is not to win trophies but to improve the individuel player in such a way that he becomes valuable for the first team. And this is what Inter didnt do in the final. It was pure anti-football, and all about getting a result like something really mattered. So you won a trophy, does that make your academy succesfull? In my eyes it doesnt, cause bar that Bessa kid, I couldnt see any true talent. So what are those players going to add to your first team?

But considering you are Inter, in some weird way this is how an academy must be run I guess. Cause even with the first team getting a result is all that matters it seems. So if getting results no matter what is Inter's way of running a youth academy then it's succesful.

Of course it is. I rather my club win championships, than do circus tricks for entertainment. I don't care whether its the youth team or the senior team, playing in a competition is about winning. IMO training is for development, the best thing you can learn from a competition is how to win as a team. I guess we both are different like that...

Sure, I will admit that Sporting and Ajax have more talented individuals in their youth team than ours, perhaps even Barca (btw, Sporting was by a distance the best team at NextGen, did you see that kid Betinho? Wow!). But to say that Bessa is the only true talent Inter had is a bit of a stretch. Crisetig is a talent too, so is Longo. I can also see Alborno, Spendlhofer, Duncan, M'Baye, etc graduating to the senior team with a little development. And our most expensive youth player (Tassi) didn't even play due to injury.

Anyways, apart from Betinho & Bessa, I was also pretty impressed by Fischer of Ajax & Dongue of Barca - 4 names to watch out for.

I agree with fey here. A youth team is set up to develop new players, not win trophies. This is why NOBODY cares about U21 or U18 tournaments.

I don't think that is all what Fey is implying... read the part I highlighted, Fey is implying that even for the first team, it shouldn't be just about the result. ie Milan should have attacked Barca yesterday instead of a defensive formation, even if it meant almost certain defeat.

With regards to the Primavera, I disagree with you. This isn't the U11 or the U10 "training" games. The same principles that apply to the senior team apply here IMO, that training sessions are for development, and tournaments are for winning. Because learning how to win games and the tactical requirement that goes behind it, is almost as important at this stage as further development of ball skills.
Successful youth teams in Italy have always had a strong correlation to talent developed for the senior game (except in the last few years, where talented youth have started stagnating).

The main reason why few people care about U18 or U21 tournaments is not because its not about winning - its primarily the same reason few people care about the Serie C or the women's game - the skill on show is just not at par with Serie A or the Champions league.
I'd be surprised if you find anyone, especially youth football coaches, who agrees with that. Yes, learning tactics and systems starts to matter at this age, but winning tournaments (particularly at club level... int'l does have a bit more 'prestige' ) doesn't mean much at all in terms of 'preparing you for winning at the senior level' Doh

That's just loser talk Razz

If you play in a tournament like NextGen, you are trying to win it, not have a merry time... the amount of confidence this win must have given our Primavera players will only hold them in good stead in the future. Of course youth talent doesn't always translate to success at the senior level, we all know that.

Btw, I know quite a few youth coaches, a few of them even write for my website. I haven't heard anything different from any of them yet.
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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by fcb on Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:24 pm

No surprises that the two most 'pragmatic/Serie A/not-opposed-to-shit-on-a-stick-defensive-football' fans on here share the same view, in contrast to everyone else.
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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by Super Progress on Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:31 pm

fcb wrote:No surprises that the two most 'pragmatic/Serie A/not-opposed-to-shit-on-a-stick-defensive-football' fans on here share the same view, in contrast to everyone else.
No doubt me and Bluenine share a certain Weltanschauung.

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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by worms. on Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:36 pm

fcb wrote:No surprises that the two most 'pragmatic/Serie A/not-opposed-to-shit-on-a-stick-defensive-football' fans on here share the same view, in contrast to everyone else.

Defensive football isn't necessarily shit on a stick football.
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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by bluenine on Thu Mar 29, 2012 6:39 pm

fcb wrote:No surprises that the two most 'pragmatic/Serie A/not-opposed-to-shit-on-a-stick-defensive-football' fans on here share the same view, in contrast to everyone else.

No surprise that the most "hypocritical/not-opposed-to-shit-on-a-stick-back-passing-football" fan here doesn't share our view Razz
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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by Fey on Thu Mar 29, 2012 6:46 pm

bluenine wrote:
Bogdan Stancu wrote:
bluenine wrote:
Fey wrote:
bluenine wrote:
Fey wrote:As for Inter, Lawl. What a sorry ass team. And now they hired a coach, who got totally dicked on Sunday, but with luck reached the penatly shootout and won it. Sounds like the perfect coach for them afterall Biggrin

Fey, you sound so bitter about the NextGen final result... and I thought you hated Ajax? scratch

These dutch rivalries are so complicated...

Oh, believe me Bluenine, you wont have to doubt my dislike for ajax.

However, I'm not the biggest fan of Catenaccio either. You see, the point of the youth and an academy in my eyes is not to win trophies but to improve the individuel player in such a way that he becomes valuable for the first team. And this is what Inter didnt do in the final. It was pure anti-football, and all about getting a result like something really mattered. So you won a trophy, does that make your academy succesfull? In my eyes it doesnt, cause bar that Bessa kid, I couldnt see any true talent. So what are those players going to add to your first team?

But considering you are Inter, in some weird way this is how an academy must be run I guess. Cause even with the first team getting a result is all that matters it seems. So if getting results no matter what is Inter's way of running a youth academy then it's succesful.

Of course it is. I rather my club win championships, than do circus tricks for entertainment. I don't care whether its the youth team or the senior team, playing in a competition is about winning. IMO training is for development, the best thing you can learn from a competition is how to win as a team. I guess we both are different like that...

Sure, I will admit that Sporting and Ajax have more talented individuals in their youth team than ours, perhaps even Barca (btw, Sporting was by a distance the best team at NextGen, did you see that kid Betinho? Wow!). But to say that Bessa is the only true talent Inter had is a bit of a stretch. Crisetig is a talent too, so is Longo. I can also see Alborno, Spendlhofer, Duncan, M'Baye, etc graduating to the senior team with a little development. And our most expensive youth player (Tassi) didn't even play due to injury.

Anyways, apart from Betinho & Bessa, I was also pretty impressed by Fischer of Ajax & Dongue of Barca - 4 names to watch out for.

I agree with fey here. A youth team is set up to develop new players, not win trophies. This is why NOBODY cares about U21 or U18 tournaments.

I don't think that is all what Fey is implying... read the part I highlighted, Fey is implying that even for the first team, it shouldn't be just about the result. ie Milan should have attacked Barca yesterday instead of a defensive formation, even if it meant almost certain defeat.

With regards to the Primavera, I disagree with you. This isn't the U11 or the U10 "training" games. The same principles that apply to the senior team apply here IMO, that training sessions are for development, and tournaments are for winning. Because learning how to win games and the tactical requirement that goes behind it, is almost as important at this stage as further development of ball skills. Successful youth teams in Italy have always had a strong correlation to talent developed for the senior game (except in the last few years, where talented youth have started stagnating).

The main reason why few people care about U18 or U21 tournaments is not because its not about winning - its primarily the same reason few people care about the Serie C or the women's game - the skill on show is just not at par with Serie A or the Champions league.

Of course Milan should have gone for a goal yesterday!! Everyone is happy now with 0-0, but that kinda implies that they MUST score at the Nou Camp, what if they won't do it? Then Milan will be kicking themself for not going for a goal, which they should have done cause Barca werent that good yesterday.

And I SO disagree with your opinion on the development of youth. They way you want to train the youth destroys them rather then bringing the best of them out. EVERYTHING in the youth should be based on position play rather then tactics. Do you know why Barca is so superior to the rest? Cause they train on position play from an early age, 3 against 5 on a small pitch. That's how you improve players, not having 8 guys behind a ball, that is pointless.

Let's be honest, Inter grinded itself towards the title win last sunday, does this mean they have the best youth academy in Europe now? In my eyes it doesnt, the academy is there to train players so they can add something to the first team, so a club wont have to buy players. What if zero of the players are given a change cause they add fuck all to your first team, then what? All they have is a worthless trophy that nobody really cares about.

De Guzman made this post almost 4.5 years ago.

U18:
Ruben Barends, Joel Bijlow, Donny Day, Leroy Fer, Wesley van Gils, Hanne Hagary, Michel Janota, Glenn Kobussen, Kostas Lamprou, Kelvin Leerdam, Robin van Leeuwen, Miquel Nelom, Norichio Nieveld, Jordao Pattinama, Louis Pedro, Lorenzo Piqu, Kaj Ramsteijn, Clint van Stee &Raymond Watamaleo.

U16:
Ryan Bouwmeester, Jerson Cabral, Jordy Clasie, Ariel da Cruz Silva, Henkie Dijkhuizen, Tim Eekman, Nick Erkelens, Ricky van Haaren, Shabir Isoufi, Nayib Lagouireh, Rajiv van la Parra, Robbert van der Post, Thom de Rooij, Georginho Wijnaldum, Bart Schenkeveld, Nygel Velder, Stefan de Vrij & zkan Yilmaz.

U14:
Julian Agatowski, Geraldo Alberto Antonio, Kay Blokbland, Jon-Joost Cornelissens, Jordy van Deelen, Yorick van Deelen, Boy de Jong, Robert Klaassen, Robbert Kuit, Bryan van der Laan, Elvis Manu, Desley van Oosten, Luc Castaignos, Roy Rrondeltrap, Matthew Steenvoorden, Joshua Steenvoorden, Gwaeron Stout & Joey van der Velden.

The ones in bold made our first team, not saying they are all good enough, but basically our entire current team can be found back here, and that is what an academy, in my opinion, is for. If a player doesnt add anything, our isnt better then a current first team player of Inter, why give him a chance.


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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by Jaime on Thu Mar 29, 2012 7:24 pm

Here is a question for Serie A fans. Who are the next really good Italian centre backs coming up? Are there even any? I was reading through the "Best centre back in the world" thread and thinking about Nesta and trying to think, who comes next? Seems like world class Italian centre backs used to grow on trees Baresi, Costacurta, Ferri, Vierchowod, Cravero, Galli, Minotti, Ferrara, etc but it seems like since Cannavaro and Nesta the well has kind of dried. I guess Chiellini maybe? Anyone else?
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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by Kroos on Thu Mar 29, 2012 7:26 pm

badstuber
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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by gone on Thu Mar 29, 2012 7:31 pm

bluenine wrote:
Bogdan Stancu wrote:
bluenine wrote:
Fey wrote:
bluenine wrote:
Fey wrote:As for Inter, Lawl. What a sorry ass team. And now they hired a coach, who got totally dicked on Sunday, but with luck reached the penatly shootout and won it. Sounds like the perfect coach for them afterall Biggrin

Fey, you sound so bitter about the NextGen final result... and I thought you hated Ajax? scratch

These dutch rivalries are so complicated...

Oh, believe me Bluenine, you wont have to doubt my dislike for ajax.

However, I'm not the biggest fan of Catenaccio either. You see, the point of the youth and an academy in my eyes is not to win trophies but to improve the individuel player in such a way that he becomes valuable for the first team. And this is what Inter didnt do in the final. It was pure anti-football, and all about getting a result like something really mattered. So you won a trophy, does that make your academy succesfull? In my eyes it doesnt, cause bar that Bessa kid, I couldnt see any true talent. So what are those players going to add to your first team?

But considering you are Inter, in some weird way this is how an academy must be run I guess. Cause even with the first team getting a result is all that matters it seems. So if getting results no matter what is Inter's way of running a youth academy then it's succesful.

Of course it is. I rather my club win championships, than do circus tricks for entertainment. I don't care whether its the youth team or the senior team, playing in a competition is about winning. IMO training is for development, the best thing you can learn from a competition is how to win as a team. I guess we both are different like that...

Sure, I will admit that Sporting and Ajax have more talented individuals in their youth team than ours, perhaps even Barca (btw, Sporting was by a distance the best team at NextGen, did you see that kid Betinho? Wow!). But to say that Bessa is the only true talent Inter had is a bit of a stretch. Crisetig is a talent too, so is Longo. I can also see Alborno, Spendlhofer, Duncan, M'Baye, etc graduating to the senior team with a little development. And our most expensive youth player (Tassi) didn't even play due to injury.

Anyways, apart from Betinho & Bessa, I was also pretty impressed by Fischer of Ajax & Dongue of Barca - 4 names to watch out for.

I agree with fey here. A youth team is set up to develop new players, not win trophies. This is why NOBODY cares about U21 or U18 tournaments.

I don't think that is all what Fey is implying... read the part I highlighted, Fey is implying that even for the first team, it shouldn't be just about the result. ie Milan should have attacked Barca yesterday instead of a defensive formation, even if it meant almost certain defeat.

With regards to the Primavera, I disagree with you. This isn't the U11 or the U10 "training" games. The same principles that apply to the senior team apply here IMO, that training sessions are for development, and tournaments are for winning. Because learning how to win games and the tactical requirement that goes behind it, is almost as important at this stage as further development of ball skills. Successful youth teams in Italy have always had a strong correlation to talent developed for the senior game (except in the last few years, where talented youth have started stagnating).

The main reason why few people care about U18 or U21 tournaments is not because its not about winning - its primarily the same reason few people care about the Serie C or the women's game - the skill on show is just not at par with Serie A or the Champions league.

Youth tournaments are not for winning. They are set up so that the big clubs can get a look at the young players from smaller teams in a competitive enviroment. Again, NOBODY cares who wins those tournaments.

PS: The highlighted part was a joke by fey. Rolling Eyes
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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by gone on Thu Mar 29, 2012 7:33 pm

Jaime wrote:Here is a question for Serie A fans. Who are the next really good Italian centre backs coming up? Are there even any? I was reading through the "Best centre back in the world" thread and thinking about Nesta and trying to think, who comes next? Seems like world class Italian centre backs used to grow on trees Baresi, Costacurta, Ferri, Vierchowod, Cravero, Galli, Minotti, Ferrara, etc but it seems like since Cannavaro and Nesta the well has kind of dried. I guess Chiellini maybe? Anyone else?

Chiellini is not young.

To be fair Italy has lost it's way when it comes to defenders. Most young italian talents are in midfield and fowards.
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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by Tarun on Thu Mar 29, 2012 7:34 pm

If the question is not restricted to only upcoming or young defenders then I think Andrea Barzagli should make the list. He has been Juve's Mr. Dependable and one of the main force behind us having the best defensive record so far this season. I am sure Prandelli will have him as a regular in the national team
Jaime wrote:Here is a question for Serie A fans. Who are the next really good Italian centre backs coming up? Are there even any? I was reading through the "Best centre back in the world" thread and thinking about Nesta and trying to think, who comes next? Seems like world class Italian centre backs used to grow on trees Baresi, Costacurta, Ferri, Vierchowod, Cravero, Galli, Minotti, Ferrara, etc but it seems like since Cannavaro and Nesta the well has kind of dried. I guess Chiellini maybe? Anyone else?
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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by Jaime on Thu Mar 29, 2012 7:36 pm

I guess I meant 'younger' as in not in the twilight of their career. Chiellini is 27 (older than I thought) but still really just entering the prime of his career (for a centre back).

I didn't even know Barzagli came back from Germany! Embarassed
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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by Isco Benny on Thu Mar 29, 2012 7:39 pm

Jaime wrote:Here is a question for Serie A fans. Who are the next really good Italian centre backs coming up? Are there even any? I was reading through the "Best centre back in the world" thread and thinking about Nesta and trying to think, who comes next? Seems like world class Italian centre backs used to grow on trees Baresi, Costacurta, Ferri, Vierchowod, Cravero, Galli, Minotti, Ferrara, etc but it seems like since Cannavaro and Nesta the well has kind of dried. I guess Chiellini maybe? Anyone else?

Great question. Even better answer from Kroos

Not just centre backs. They used to produce the best full backs in the world alongside the Brazilians. nowadays, I can't name one who I would put near a top 5
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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by bluenine on Thu Mar 29, 2012 7:41 pm

Fey wrote:
Of course Milan should have gone for a goal yesterday!! Everyone is happy now with 0-0, but that kinda implies that they MUST score at the Nou Camp, what if they won't do it? Then Milan will be kicking themself for not going for a goal, which they should have done cause Barca werent that good yesterday.

And I SO disagree with your opinion on the development of youth. They way you want to train the youth destroys them rather then bringing the best of them out. EVERYTHING in the youth should be based on position play rather then tactics. Do you know why Barca is so superior to the rest? Cause they train on position play from an early age, 3 against 5 on a small pitch. That's how you improve players, not having 8 guys behind a ball, that is pointless.

Let's be honest, Inter grinded itself towards the title win last sunday, does this mean they have the best youth academy in Europe now? In my eyes it doesnt, the academy is there to train players so they can add something to the first team, so a club wont have to buy players. What if zero of the players are given a change cause they add fuck all to your first team, then what? All they have is a worthless trophy that nobody really cares about.

De Guzman made this post almost 4.5 years ago.

U18:
Ruben Barends, Joel Bijlow, Donny Day, Leroy Fer, Wesley van Gils, Hanne Hagary, Michel Janota, Glenn Kobussen, Kostas Lamprou, Kelvin Leerdam, Robin van Leeuwen, Miquel Nelom, Norichio Nieveld, Jordao Pattinama, Louis Pedro, Lorenzo Piqu, Kaj Ramsteijn, Clint van Stee &Raymond Watamaleo.

U16:
Ryan Bouwmeester, Jerson Cabral, Jordy Clasie, Ariel da Cruz Silva, Henkie Dijkhuizen, Tim Eekman, Nick Erkelens, Ricky van Haaren, Shabir Isoufi, Nayib Lagouireh, Rajiv van la Parra, Robbert van der Post, Thom de Rooij, Georginho Wijnaldum, Bart Schenkeveld, Nygel Velder, Stefan de Vrij & zkan Yilmaz.

U14:
Julian Agatowski, Geraldo Alberto Antonio, Kay Blokbland, Jon-Joost Cornelissens, Jordy van Deelen, Yorick van Deelen, Boy de Jong, Robert Klaassen, Robbert Kuit, Bryan van der Laan, Elvis Manu, Desley van Oosten, Luc Castaignos, Roy Rrondeltrap, Matthew Steenvoorden, Joshua Steenvoorden, Gwaeron Stout & Joey van der Velden.

The ones in bold made our first team, not saying they are all good enough, but basically our entire current team can be found back here, and that is what an academy, in my opinion, is for. If a player doesnt add anything, our isnt better then a current first team player of Inter, why give him a chance.
We are not arguing about training methods, we are not even arguing about how good Inter's youth team really is, or whether any of them will make it to the senior team.

We are only arguing about whether Inter Primavera & Strama did the right thing to for the win in NextGen. And in such a tournament, I believe youth teams need to go for the win - that philosophy is important, specially at that age. Lets just agree to disagree on that...

And clearly you haven't seen most of Inter Primavera's games in NextGen. Inter played different formations/tactics, depending on what we were up against. I was in the stadium in the semi's against Marseille for example, sitting not too far from Strama. Inter played a very attacking game from the start, and even when the score was 2-0, we could hear Strama screaming at the lads to "get the 3rd and close the game". So much from "grinding" out results.

And with all due respect, making the first team of Feyernoord is not the same as making the first team of Inter. At Inter in the past, our youth have had to compete with the multi-million euro acquisitions. However, now the tide is changing and Inter has to start relying more on academy talent. These are all steps in the right direction. We already have Obi & Faraoni making an impact with the seniors, so its a start.

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Re: Serie A 2011-12

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