Serie A 2011-12

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Pirlo

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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by Pirlo on Sun Apr 01, 2012 3:46 pm

bluenine wrote:
bluenine wrote:Crazy game... Cesar just got sent off, Gila converting the penalty... 4-3, now Inter need to hold on for 10 minutes with a man down.... very unlikely, the way the game is going!

Whoa, now Belluschi gets a red, Milito scores his hatrick with the penalty... 5-3. You can't write such a script even if you tried Smile

Thought he got the ball? Inter look just as chaotic as ever,
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bluenine

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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by bluenine on Sun Apr 01, 2012 3:50 pm

bluenine wrote:
bluenine wrote:Crazy game... Cesar just got sent off, Gila converting the penalty... 4-3, now Inter need to hold on for 10 minutes with a man down.... very unlikely, the way the game is going!

Whoa, now Belluschi gets a red, Milito scores his hatrick with the penalty... 5-3. You can't write such a script even if you tried Smile

Another penalty for Genoa, their 3rd of the game. Gila makes it 5-4.

9 goals in a game, highest scoring of this season?
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Forza Italia!Forza Milan!

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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by Forza Italia!Forza Milan! on Sun Apr 01, 2012 3:50 pm

Crazy game between Inter and Genoa. Pazza Inter indeed Smile.

@Tarun...I sorta expected your response. Actually what I wrote is not all over the place--it's fairly focused. Marotta recently complained in Tuttosport that Juve were being punished for the scandal (he brought it up). I actually admitted that Milan were convicted AND the TV rights thing. I actually categorically said that Milan were involved. What is happening right now IS a product of an environment in which Juventus feel they're being penalized for past wrongs. Your people have said it explicitly. Back during the scandal, Juventus were convinced that this was an Inter-Milan conspiracy, Milan were convinced of it being an Inter conspiracy and etc. etc.

My point is that it is neither, but the environment is toxic in Italian football, and referee errors can't possibly be referee errors for the two clubs. Complaints do happen in other leagues obviously, but in Italy the context will always be tinged with Calciopoli. Raising the stink as you say serves Juve's purpose because it puts pressure on referees and gives the club the perfect alibi.

As for me being cynical of Italian football--I am. Horrible mismanagement, racism, dilapidated stadia, and scandals have made me so--and I want it to be better. So, as time goes on, I care more about how Italian football is as a whole. Hence, my singular obsession with UEFA coefficients. Sad


Last edited by Forza Italia!Forza Milan! on Sun Apr 01, 2012 4:05 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Fey

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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by Fey on Sun Apr 01, 2012 3:51 pm

When is the Juventus match on? They play Napoli right? The battle of the best two playing sides in Italy!

As for the title race, well looking at the fixtures, it has to be Milan. I mean, the don't play a single top 7 side any more.
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Forza Italia!Forza Milan!

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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by Forza Italia!Forza Milan! on Sun Apr 01, 2012 3:55 pm

Fey wrote:When is the Juventus match on? They play Napoli right? The battle of the best two playing sides in Italy!

As for the title race, well looking at the fixtures, it has to be Milan. I mean, the don't play a single top 7 side any more.

This afternoon. I think at this stage the Scudetto race is wide open. Juventus can do it still.
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bluenine

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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by bluenine on Sun Apr 01, 2012 3:59 pm

Pirlo wrote:
bluenine wrote:
bluenine wrote:Crazy game... Cesar just got sent off, Gila converting the penalty... 4-3, now Inter need to hold on for 10 minutes with a man down.... very unlikely, the way the game is going!

Whoa, now Belluschi gets a red, Milito scores his hatrick with the penalty... 5-3. You can't write such a script even if you tried Smile

Thought he got the ball? Inter look just as chaotic as ever,

My internet feed wasn't good enough for me to take a call, but it looked like contact from the distance view.

Yeah, Inter completely lost the plot in the 2nd half. We may have 3 points, which probably don't mean anything anymore, but there is really nothing we can take away from this game.

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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by Tarun on Sun Apr 01, 2012 4:00 pm

If I was in their positions (Marotta in this case) and running the show, I would probably do the same. Are not referees humans too? While I don't think that is the case but don't you think that there is a possibility of the referees being psychologically inclined not to give Juventus penalties due to the fear of reprimand and scrutiny if the decision turns out to be wrong? But at the same time as time passes and I hope the quality of refereeing in the league picks up...this complaining and counter charges will recede and with it will also recede the stigma of 'we have been punished way to long' from the minds of Juventus officials and fans alike.
Forza Italia!Forza Milan! wrote: What is happening right now IS a product of an environment in which Juventus feel they're being penalized for past wrongs. Your people have said it explicitly.
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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by Tarun on Sun Apr 01, 2012 4:02 pm

Conte is going to be mighty envious of Genoa and Strama Wink
bluenine wrote:
Another penalty for Genoa, their 3rd of the game.
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Forza Italia!Forza Milan!

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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by Forza Italia!Forza Milan! on Sun Apr 01, 2012 4:03 pm

Tarun wrote:If I was in their positions (Marotta in this case) and running the show, I would probably do the same. Are not referees humans too? While I don't think that is the case but don't you think that there is a possibility of the referees being psychologically inclined not to give Juventus penalties due to the fear of reprimand and scrutiny if the decision turns out to be wrong? But at the same time as time passes and I hope the quality of refereeing in the league picks up...this complaining and counter charges will recede and with it will also recede the stigma of 'we have been punished way to long' from the minds of Juventus officials and fans alike.
Forza Italia!Forza Milan! wrote: What is happening right now IS a product of an environment in which Juventus feel they're being penalized for past wrongs. Your people have said it explicitly.

Okay so you do admit it Laughing . Phew.

Yes, I agree with you, and that is precisely my point. While Ferguson or Wenger or Mourinho may moan, in Italy it was proven that our clubs were involved in match-fixing. So don't you think it's funny that they are acting like victims? It's pathetic.

What we're seeing now are claims of the inverse of sudditanza psicologica. That is, referees ARE not giving decisions to a big club like Juventus because of the reasons you highlight. It is getting a bit silly.


Last edited by Forza Italia!Forza Milan! on Sun Apr 01, 2012 4:12 pm; edited 1 time in total
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bluenine

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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by bluenine on Sun Apr 01, 2012 4:08 pm

Fey wrote:When is the Juventus match on? They play Napoli right? The battle of the best two playing sides in Italy!
Bianconeri vs Azzurri is probably the battle between the two best playing sides in Italy from your perspective, but I think you may be confusing the shirts... its the Zebrette of Udine who are the entertaining bianconeri side, not Juve of Turin. Juventus play a game based on work-rate and efficiency, like their orthodox 4-4-2 against Inter last week.

Fey wrote:As for the title race, well looking at the fixtures, it has to be Milan. I mean, the don't play a single top 7 side any more.

By the time you posted this, it became untrue... Inter are 7th now Razz
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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by bluenine on Sun Apr 01, 2012 4:12 pm

Tarun wrote:Conte is going to be mighty envious of Genoa and Strama Wink
bluenine wrote:
Another penalty for Genoa, their 3rd of the game.

Why would he be envious of Strama? Coz Strama won inspite of 3 penalties given against his team? Razz
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Forza Italia!Forza Milan!

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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by Forza Italia!Forza Milan! on Sun Apr 01, 2012 4:19 pm

I hope Inter make a late push and make it to the Europa League.

Then, I hope they take it semi-seriously and field competitive sides. Experience with youngsters who won NextGen. Maybe they can make a run and earn points for Italy.
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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by Tarun on Sun Apr 01, 2012 4:28 pm

When did I ever say that Moggi was not the culprit? All I am saying that was it not Juventus alone that got a punishment as if nobody else was involved? And an 8 point penalty for Milan qualifies as a punishment.

And I chose to disagree that venting out regarding referees is not within the rights of coaches and officials even if it is Milan and Juventus at the moment, who have a lot at stake given the present situation. If Marotta is giving it a spin of the Calciopoli backlash against Juve then so be it. You just need to look at the number of legit penalty appeals turned down that will have the blood boiling if you are a Juventus fan. I still maintain that the quality of refereeing in Serie A is sub par. In fact if the quality of refereeing does not get better it might balloon into another Calciopoli.

I point out again that when I started posting today...it was actually to do with the hypocrisy of it all including you fans who were so quick to point out on this very forum as to how 'un-classy' it was of Conte to complain. And inevitably you have no choice but to stick to your earlier stated positions now that Galliani and Allegri did it too. I remember Bluenine pointing out something on the same lines.

Forza Italia!Forza Milan! wrote:
Tarun wrote:If I was in their positions (Marotta in this case) and running the show, I would probably do the same. Are not referees humans too? While I don't think that is the case but don't you think that there is a possibility of the referees being psychologically inclined not to give Juventus penalties due to the fear of reprimand and scrutiny if the decision turns out to be wrong? But at the same time as time passes and I hope the quality of refereeing in the league picks up...this complaining and counter charges will recede and with it will also recede the stigma of 'we have been punished way to long' from the minds of Juventus officials and fans alike.
Forza Italia!Forza Milan! wrote: What is happening right now IS a product of an environment in which Juventus feel they're being penalized for past wrongs. Your people have said it explicitly.

Okay so you do admit it Laughing . Phew.

Yes, I agree with you, and that is precisely my point. While Ferguson or Wenger or Mourinho may moan, in Italy it was proven that our clubs were involved in match-fixing. So don't you think it's funny that they are acting like victims? It's pathetic.
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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by Tarun on Sun Apr 01, 2012 4:31 pm

Albeit, winning a penalty of his won too!
bluenine wrote:
Tarun wrote:Conte is going to be mighty envious of Genoa and Strama Wink
bluenine wrote:
Another penalty for Genoa, their 3rd of the game.

Why would he be envious of Strama? Coz Strama won inspite of 3 penalties given against his team? Razz
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Forza Italia!Forza Milan!

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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by Forza Italia!Forza Milan! on Sun Apr 01, 2012 4:34 pm

But Tarun, my dear friend, I admitted it clearly that what they did was un-classy. Both Juve and Milan have been disgraceful IMO. I wrote it yesterday as well.

Also, I have criticized the ownership of Milan severely in the past, most notably Berlusconi. I have no problem admitting it. You seem to have an acute case of selective reading.

Conte started it, Milan continued it, and now Milan have taken it too far IMO.


Last edited by Forza Italia!Forza Milan! on Sun Apr 01, 2012 4:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by bluenine on Sun Apr 01, 2012 4:36 pm

Forza Italia!Forza Milan! wrote:
Tarun wrote:Surprised to see the way Allegri and Galliani are complaining about refereeing!!! And I thought that Conte and Marotta were the only 'class-less' guys who do this kinda stuff. But can't blame them either. When the heat is turned on and they see the 4 point cushion at risk one does get concerned. Just like someone else felt that all their hard work since the start of this season was at risk because of a string of such decisions.

But a notable difference is that while Milan was completely justified and within their rights to speak out after the game against Juventus, they have no reason to do so for the game against Catania. So probably Allegri and Galliani can go and stuff this hypocrisy up their's this time. And oh...how about media silence?? But that again must be less classy huh.

Unfortunately Galliani and Allegri were a bit silly last night. Totally undignified.

But I find the whole spectacle undignified, namely that of two clubs who have had their fingers in the pie, who have been convicted of sporting fraud in the past to complain. Admittedly, Juventus were the colossal cheaters, and their sporting fraud was a systematic conditioning of Serie A, where the audience were taken for a ride for years.

Of course, this is the only context in which to discuss what is going on this season at Milan and Juventus, this rage to end all rage. In the wake of Calciopoli (or Moggipoli depending on your perspective), I, in my less than infinite wisdom, blamed everyone and their dog for Milan's predicament, which was minor, and rightly so, compared to Juventus, who totally disgraced themselves. When I mention Juventus even to a casual fan of football, they snicker knowingly. When I mention Milan, they talk about our terminally corrupt president, Silvio Berlusconi. Rightly so, of course, because while Moggi screwed the football-loving public, Berlusconi, as many have said, including the Economist most memorably, screwed an entire country.

I have made peace with this because I now realize to flail and wail about conspiracies hatched by Inter and Telecom is as silly as Marotta and Galliani or Allegri and Conte screaming "ROBBED!" Let's face it, what they are really saying is not that the referees are incompetent (most probable), but that there is something nefarious going on again (least probable). This is now beyond sudditanza psicologica.

In the aftermath of one of the biggest sporting frauds in history, I spent a significant time during the summer of 2006 poring over the semi-coherent evidence of this Inter conspiracy, evidence that was often circulated in emails and forums. I am conversant with Italian, and it is good enough to understand telling symptoms of clinical paranoia, and these documents, while impressive in their sustained rage over four or five page diatribes, exhibited these very symptoms. It got to the point where Christian Vieri, a man who during the latter part of his career spent his time equally between doing his best impression of expensive lumber and dating showgirls, was suddenly the muffled, truth-telling voice of the oppressed. I am not saying what Milan but especially Juventus were saying was all false, but it was the most vulgar example of being unable to come to terms with public humiliation. Instead of contrition we got to see false indignation. It was operatic, sure, but ultimately it was pathetic.

What is critically and shamefully true for our clubs is that we had a duopoly over Italian football. If Juventus were the match-fixers, we were the TV- rights fixers (with a little bit of match-conditioning on the side Wink ). Indeed, to de-centralize TV rights in the late 90s was a staggering blow to Italian football, which stunted its growth, and left teams like Chievo and Parma in the lurch. The result is there for all to see: even now, with central contracts, Italian football is dismayingly behind in other commercial contexts, relying still on generous TV deals for bread and butter. This can't go on.

As time goes by, I have become less and less partisan simply because while I love Milan, and have done so since I was a child, I love Italian football too. Therefore, I want my Italian football to be genuinely democratized, and I want clubs to be able to have their own stadia as soon as possible. I also want the suits in Italian football--Galliani, Marotta, etc.--to stop behaving like myopic brats. I now care more about what the Catanias and the Cagliaris have to say, their pleas, their struggles, because they are reflective of the truly oppressed. This doesn't mean that Inter can do no wrong and haven't done any wrong, but I can only focus on the moral character of my club and the condition of Italian football as a whole.

It has been a good contest between Milan and Juventus this season. But you must admit, Conte started this whole bullshit this season, just like I admit when Milan and Berlusconi are wrong (they are wrong a lot btw). Yesterday's game against Catania was fair in my opinion. The most egregious and unfair decision this season has been Muntari's disallowed goal, and I was seething after that. Still am tbh.

But I am tired of the bias, the slant, the spreads in Tuttosport in which Marotta reclines, musing on how Juventus are being punished for the scandal etc. I have no time for it really. It sounds unbearably stupid. And things will get even stupider now that Berlusconi is our president again.

Great post, Forza.

What does shock me, is that most Juve fans still think of Moggi and Juventus as the "victims" of Calciopoli, rather than the culprits. Talk about clinical paranoia or just delusion - we humans have the amazing ability to justify-rationalise almost anything to suit ourselves! Which is probably another reason why Juve cry the loudest these days...

But fact of the matter is that everyone cries too much these days. And what makes it worse, is that it actually helps. The refs become more cautious giving decisions against a team which is openly crying in the media - lets call it the Fergie-effect, coz SAF uses this to his team's advantage very well.

Problem is, when someone goes against the grain and refuses to critisize the refs, the "Fergie-effect" starts impacting them. Case in point, Prandelli's Viola. I remember the season a couple of years ago, when Prandelli took the principled stance of not saying anything against wrong decisions by the ref. And that season, Fiorentina got some of the worst possible decisions, almost every matchday they got a big one against them...

We need more Prandelli's...



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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by bluenine on Sun Apr 01, 2012 4:46 pm

Dude, if Conte got 3 penalties given against him every game, even if he gets one for, he will probably cry Italy a new Po Razz

I doubt he is envious of Strama in this respect, if any.

Tarun wrote:Albeit, winning a penalty of his won too!
bluenine wrote:
Tarun wrote:Conte is going to be mighty envious of Genoa and Strama Wink
bluenine wrote:
Another penalty for Genoa, their 3rd of the game.

Why would he be envious of Strama? Coz Strama won inspite of 3 penalties given against his team? Razz
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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by bluenine on Sun Apr 01, 2012 4:51 pm

Forza Italia!Forza Milan! wrote:I hope Inter make a late push and make it to the Europa League.

Then, I hope they take it semi-seriously and field competitive sides. Experience with youngsters who won NextGen. Maybe they can make a run and earn points for Italy.

While I do not care about Inter winning the Europa, I wouldn't mind if Inter qualify for it... it will keep Inter in touch with the workload of 3 competitions a season, as well as giving some european exposure to the young lads. Coefficients for Italy will be welcome too, for Inter could probably make the final few stages...
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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by Tarun on Sun Apr 01, 2012 4:54 pm

You obviously missed my point! I meant that Conte was complaining for penalties not given in Juve's favor so he might feel envious to see so many doled out in a single match. And I don't mean to say that those penalties were legit or not. I did not see the game. It was meant to be a joke on Conte

bluenine wrote:Dude, if Conte got 3 penalties given against him every game, even if he gets one for, he will probably cry Italy a new Po Razz

I doubt he is envious of Strama in this respect, if any.

Tarun wrote:Albeit, winning a penalty of his won too!
bluenine wrote:
Tarun wrote:Conte is going to be mighty envious of Genoa and Strama Wink
bluenine wrote:
Another penalty for Genoa, their 3rd of the game.

Why would he be envious of Strama? Coz Strama won inspite of 3 penalties given against his team? Razz
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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by Murray on Sun Apr 01, 2012 7:38 pm

Juventus: Buffon; Bonucci, Barzagli, Chiellini; Lichtsteiner, Vidal, Pirlo, Marchisio, De Ceglie; Borriello, Vucinic

Juventus bench: Storari, Caceres, Pepe, Giaccherini, Quagliarella, Matri, Del Piero

Napoli: De Sanctis; Campagnaro, Cannavaro, Aronica; Maggio, Gargano, Inler, Zuniga; Hamsik, Lavezzi; Cavani

Napoli bench: Rosati, Fernandez, Britos, Dossena, Dzemaili, Pandev, Vargas
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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by bluenine on Sun Apr 01, 2012 7:49 pm

Interesting line ups:

Juventus:
Buffon;
Bonucci, Barzagli, Chiellini;
Lichtsteiner, Vidal, Pirlo, Marchisio, De Ceglie;
Borriello, Vucinic

Juventus bench: Storari, Caceres, Pepe, Giaccherini, Quagliarella, Matri, Del Piero

Napoli:
De Sanctis;
Campagnaro, Cannavaro, Aronica;
Maggio, Gargano, Inler, Zuniga;
Hamsik, Lavezzi;
Cavani

Napoli bench: Rosati, Fernandez, Britos, Dossena, Dzemaili, Pandev, Vargas

Napoli are back to full strength, and well rested. They could nick this one. I actually hope they do, much rather Napoli make the CL, than Udinese or Lazio. If they win tonight, Napoli will go 3rd, level with Udinese.

Also, I am a bit surprised to see Vargas not yet getting regular playing time... I had expected him to give Lavezzi/Hamsik a serious run for their money by now.

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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by worms. on Sun Apr 01, 2012 8:09 pm

We should try this:

Maggio, Hamsik, Inler, Zuniga;
---Vargas------Lavezzi;
-----------Cavani

More ablity on the ball in midfield with Hamsik rather than Gargano and Vargas would play as more of a winger rather than a narrow attacking midfielder like Hamsik does.
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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by Fey on Sun Apr 01, 2012 8:25 pm

Am I too masculine for disliking the pink Juve shirts with a black star on it with pink shoes?

Why arent we wearing the Black and White kit!
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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by Tarun on Sun Apr 01, 2012 8:34 pm

I am totally perplexed why Conte is persisting with Boriello!!! And Vucinic has been pathetic till now. Conte...bring on Matri and ADP.
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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by bluenine on Sun Apr 01, 2012 9:31 pm

Fey wrote:Am I too masculine for disliking the pink Juve shirts with a black star on it with pink shoes?

Why arent we wearing the Black and White kit!

Yeah, those pink shirts look really silly...
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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by Murray on Sun Apr 01, 2012 9:35 pm

Napoli were shit.

0 shots on goal
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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by Tarun on Sun Apr 01, 2012 9:41 pm

Couldn't have imagined a better result! Imposing performance by Vidal...man of the match by miles. Marchisio and Bonucci were impressive too. Nice to see Marchisio getting his form back.
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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by Fey on Sun Apr 01, 2012 10:02 pm

Haha! 3-0! Juventus are amazing! Again so entertaining to watch.

Napoli playing better footie then Juve? Your havin a laugh!
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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by Tarun on Sun Apr 01, 2012 10:05 pm

ok absolutely
Fey wrote:Haha! 3-0! Juventus are amazing! Again so entertaining to watch.

Napoli playing better footie then Juve? Your havin a laugh!
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Re: Serie A 2011-12

Post by bluenine on Sun Apr 01, 2012 10:55 pm

Fey wrote:Haha! 3-0! Juventus are amazing! Again so entertaining to watch.

Napoli playing better footie then Juve? Your havin a laugh!

This Juve play a great game IMO, only I am surprised you are a fan. They play such a physical, efficient game based on a very solid, tight defense and a skillful attack. A quintessential Italian side, I thought you hated this style of football?

Maybe there is hope for you yet, Fey! Smile

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Re: Serie A 2011-12

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