Messi

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worms.

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Messi

Post by worms. on Wed Apr 04, 2012 5:40 pm

Does anybody else think he is overrated and is made to look better than he is by playing in this great Barcelona team which revolves around giving Messi the ball in dangerous positions?

Now before people who don't know what the word overrated means slate me I want you to understand this,I'm not saying he won't go down as one of the all time greats and he isn't a top 10 most talented player ever because he is but too many modern day fans who didn't watch the likes of Maradona play jump on the greatest player ever bandwagon.

Look at him for Argentina and when he plays against South American defenses,I've watched many Argentina Qualifiers and friendly's and because Argentina are nowhere near as good as Barcelona and can't constantly feed Messi the ball when he is in dangerous positions he often struggles to dominate a game.Another thing he really struggles against unlike Maradona is when he faces defenders/midfielders who are physical,tactically disciplined and basically don't give him any respect.This is why he struggles against South American and Italian players/teams.Messi isn't as strong physically or mentally as Maradona so he can be bullied out of a game.

He's played 700 minutes against Italian teams and hasn't scored once in open play,he's played 4 times vs 36 year old Nesta this season and Nesta easily got the better of him overall,in 2 of those games he had Messi in his pocket.Also in the game yesterday Nesta had the better off him and easily dispossessed him of the ball for most of the game apart from when Messi had a 20 yard run on him and Nesta was isolated,Messi just used his speed to cut across him,hot even take it past him and once where he skinned him in the last few minutes(even though this got Messi nowhere,he just ran into another defender) because Nesta could hardly run anymore.Imagine if Nesta was in his prime and was still fast,the only thing Messi has used to gain an advantage on Nesta in these games is speed.

Another reason he struggles against Italian teams is because they purposefully limit the amount of times he gets the ball near their box,watching Milan it was very interesting to see how their midfielders expertly positioned themselves to block passing "lanes" to Messi and how when we overloaded one side one of Nesta or Mexes(mainly Nesta) would come out of defense into the midfield to not let Messi receive the ball or turn with the ball.

Defenders like Zanetti,Lucio and especially Samuel made him look very ordinary as well.Cambiasso and Motta were both intelligent enough to know how to play against him,let him have the ball in deep positions but once he gets within 25 yards of ball get tight to him and either force him away from goal with 1 or 2 players or try and take the ball of him.

If Messi was a normal player and wasn't hyped to be the best ever it would be an unfair criticism because it's very hard to play against such narrow,tactically astute teams but players like Baggio and Maradona have excelled against some of the best defenses ever in Serie A playing for worse teams.I expect more from Messi in these type of environments,I expect more defense splitting passes and dribbling past players near/in the opposition box without constantly getting dispossessed and pushed off the ball.


Last edited by It's Tito time! on Sun Apr 29, 2012 9:21 am; edited 3 times in total
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Jaime

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Re: Messi

Post by Jaime on Wed Apr 04, 2012 5:42 pm

I've been saying this for years! Ale
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fcb

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Re: Messi

Post by fcb on Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:10 pm

Oh dear.

worms.

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Re: Messi

Post by worms. on Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:18 pm

fcb wrote:Oh dear.

Do you care to argue with any of my points or are you just going to hide behind the shield of ridicule and blind dogmatism?
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bluenine

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Re: Messi

Post by bluenine on Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:22 pm

I think this "best player ever" argument is media bullshit, and no 1 player can be or should be called the best ever. Its impossible to compare players from different era's, and while we can all indulge in such irrelevant speculation from time to time for fun, it does not mean anything. The only comparison you can make is with players of the same era, if that.

I think Messi is the best player on the planet at the moment. In that respect, he is not over rated at all.
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fcb

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Re: Messi

Post by fcb on Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:33 pm

Més que un club wrote:
fcb wrote:Oh dear.

Do you care to argue with any of my points or are you just going to hide behind the shield of ridicule and blind dogmatism?

What do you expect me to say? This 'is Messi the greatest ever' argument has been done to fucking death already. The points for and against are well established and constantly repeated over and over again.
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Forza Italia!Forza Milan!

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Re: Messi

Post by Forza Italia!Forza Milan! on Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:35 pm

fcb wrote:

What do you expect me to say?

I expect you to say the penalty on Nesta was bullshit. Razz

worms.

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Re: Messi

Post by worms. on Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:39 pm

fcb wrote:
Més que un club wrote:
fcb wrote:Oh dear.

Do you care to argue with any of my points or are you just going to hide behind the shield of ridicule and blind dogmatism?

What do you expect me to say? This 'is Messi the greatest ever' argument has been done to fucking death already. The points for and against are well established and constantly repeated over and over again.

Calm down bro,I haven't seen this argument on this board and I've posted here for 5 months now.I haven't seen anyone else say the arguments I just wrote either.
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Pirlo

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Re: Messi

Post by Pirlo on Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:50 pm

I don't think the level of football or the technical quality or brains of footballers today in general is anywhere near the level of the 90s/early 00s, so i agree with Blue, it's difficult and futile to make judgements across generations, but it is clear that Barcelona are the best around now.

But i think in a comparison of the numbers and levels of top defenders, goalkeepers, midfielders and forwards today and 10-25 years ago, there is very little comparison, and sadly the demise of the classic no.10 in favour of these horrid trident workaholic forwards has ruined it for me aesthetically, but that's just a personal value.
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Murray

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Re: Messi

Post by Murray on Wed Apr 04, 2012 7:21 pm

It's impossible to compare players from different generations

But

This is a weak era for football, Barca & Real are the only really good teams in europe, everybody else has defects

Also referees are a lot stricter than they used to be, defenders can't kick players like they did 20 or 30 years ago.
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Kroos

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Re: Messi

Post by Kroos on Wed Apr 04, 2012 7:37 pm

put "ronaldo" in and i agree
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Super Progress

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Re: Messi

Post by Super Progress on Wed Apr 04, 2012 7:40 pm

My point on Messi has always been the same that he isn't that good against sides that well deep like United/Chelsea/Liverpool/Inter used to play. Currently though I can't see any side that can really contain Messi although Milan were surprisingly good at it. Defences aren't what they used to be. But to be honest I have gotten a bit tired of this one. Time to burry this one like we did with the Henry agenda(that one was much funnier as well).


worms.

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Favourite Player : Goldado,Zlatan,Robben aka The Bald Prince, Busquets has now won the Euro's x1, World Cup x1, La Liga x3, UCL x2, Coppa DR x2, UEFA SC x2, Club World Cup x2. At the age of 23
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Re: Messi

Post by worms. on Wed Apr 04, 2012 8:24 pm

Super Saviour wrote:My point on Messi has always been the same that he isn't that good against sides that well deep like United/Chelsea/Liverpool/Inter used to play. Currently though I can't see any side that can really contain Messi although Milan were surprisingly good at it. Defences aren't what they used to be. But to be honest I have gotten a bit tired of this one. Time to burry this one like we did with the Henry agenda(that one was much funnier as well).


It's not a agenda and it's not meant to be funny.It's a discussion about football on a football forum.If you find it boring then the logical thing would be to not comment.

Sheffield gunner

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Re: Messi

Post by Sheffield gunner on Wed Apr 04, 2012 8:39 pm

Super Saviour wrote:Time to burry this one like we did with the Henry agenda(that one was much funnier as well).


Time to start a 'Messi is shit on a small pitch' agenda instead?

Our old WUMs used to have so much more originality and humour in their efforts.

worms.

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Favourite Player : Goldado,Zlatan,Robben aka The Bald Prince, Busquets has now won the Euro's x1, World Cup x1, La Liga x3, UCL x2, Coppa DR x2, UEFA SC x2, Club World Cup x2. At the age of 23
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Re: Messi

Post by worms. on Wed Apr 04, 2012 8:41 pm

Sheffield gunner wrote:
Super Saviour wrote:Time to burry this one like we did with the Henry agenda(that one was much funnier as well).


Time to start a 'Messi is shit on a small pitch' agenda instead?

Our old WUMs used to have so much more originality and humour in their efforts.

Do one you utter wankstain.
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Fade out

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Re: Messi

Post by Fade out on Wed Apr 04, 2012 8:41 pm

Sheffield gunner wrote:Our old WUMs used to have so much more originality and humour in their efforts.

Ale

worms.

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Favourite Player : Goldado,Zlatan,Robben aka The Bald Prince, Busquets has now won the Euro's x1, World Cup x1, La Liga x3, UCL x2, Coppa DR x2, UEFA SC x2, Club World Cup x2. At the age of 23
Registration date : 2011-12-07

Re: Messi

Post by worms. on Wed Apr 04, 2012 8:50 pm

This forum is kind of shit tbh,I put effort into making a new thread and just get called a Wum,go and fuck yourselves you boring mongs,posters like Fade Out and Sheffield Gunner don't provide any insightful comments at all,just trivial nonsense like "good goal" or "I didn't think it was a pen".They have no intellectual thoughts on the game at all.

Scum <Ale>
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Fade out

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Re: Messi

Post by Fade out on Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:02 pm

Hmmmm, just wanted to acknowledge that we have very high standards to live up to, my fellow WUM..
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Jaime

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Re: Messi

Post by Jaime on Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:10 pm

I will indulge old worms even though this has been discussed in various threads before.

I think the big question is if you could drop Messi into a team that is decidedly mid-table, take Espanyol for example, would he turn them into league champions? Because this is what Maradona did and it's why I rate him as the greatest ever.

Of course we will never know because Messi will not make a move like that while he is in his prime, and maybe not ever. But I have my doubts because when he plays for Argentina (i.e. without Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets, Alves, etc) he is not the same player.

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The Chosen Glenn

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Re: Messi

Post by The Chosen Glenn on Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:11 pm

I don't see that Messi is any better (historically speaking) than the likes of Gerrard, Lampard, Henry or van Nistelrooy. Put him in a more physical league (or see his international career) and you're looking at a completely different player. Maradonna played in shite teams during an age where defenders were allowed to carry hammers, and he dragged lowly Napoli and a horrible Argentina to glory. Messi is a nice player to watch (I prefer watching Xavi because he looks a bit like the guy from How I Met Your Mother) but if history is to remember him as anything other than that guy who was around at the same time as Cristiano Ronaldo he needs to succeed in another league, and at international level.

I also agree that Metta World Peace and Rai are scum Ale
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Super Progress

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Re: Messi

Post by Super Progress on Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:46 pm

Fade out wrote:
Sheffield gunner wrote:Our old WUMs used to have so much more originality and humour in their efforts.

Ale
<Ale>
The good old days. Erm
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abundance

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Re: Messi

Post by abundance on Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:12 pm

Lowly and decidedly mid-table team my ass.

That Napoli was assembled by Italo Allodi and his heir, a certain Luciano Moggi, and had lads like Ferrara, Renica, Bagni, De Napoli and Giordano for the first scudetto, and added Alemao, Careca and Crippa for the second.



Still, Maradona >>>>>>>>>>> all

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bluenine

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Re: Messi

Post by bluenine on Wed Apr 04, 2012 11:45 pm

abundance wrote:Lowly and decidedly mid-table team my ass.

That Napoli was assembled by Italo Allodi and his heir, a certain Luciano Moggi, and had lads like Ferrara, Renica, Bagni, De Napoli and Giordano for the first scudetto, and added Alemao, Careca and Crippa for the second.
You just stole my post there! Lowly Napoli LOL! Its amazing how agenda's make that Napoli team sound shite without Maradona... Espanyol, seriously?!!

MaGiCa anyone, the trio who Cavani-Lavezzi-Hamsik are trying so hard to emulate?

Agenda's Ale
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Jaime

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Re: Messi

Post by Jaime on Thu Apr 05, 2012 1:35 am

I know Napoli finished near the top in the early 80s but before Maradona arrived they had been anchored in the lower half of the table for two or three seasons. I'm not saying they had no good players. Compare them to Sevilla if you want. the point is Maradona was clearly the difference and without him there is now way that Napoli side get even close to the title, particularly the first one. Same with Argentina in 1986. Ok some decent players but without Maradona there is no way they win the World Cup.
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The Easter Bunny

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Re: Messi

Post by The Easter Bunny on Thu Apr 05, 2012 2:02 am

abundance wrote:Lowly and decidedly mid-table team my ass.

That Napoli was assembled by Italo Allodi and his heir, a certain Luciano Moggi, and had lads like Ferrara, Renica, Bagni, De Napoli and Giordano for the first scudetto, and added Alemao, Careca and Crippa for the second.



Still, Maradona >>>>>>>>>>> all


Don't overlook the Argie 86 squad(Passalrella,Kempes,Valdano,Ruggeri), i'm to young to have watched it but I have seen highlights of most WC's and even took the time to watch quite a few full games from various WC's and Euro championships,(Cruyffs,Beckenbauer,Maradona,Zico/Socarates,Landrups sides have a particular hold on my heart)
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Jaime

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Re: Messi

Post by Jaime on Thu Apr 05, 2012 2:14 am

The Easter Bunny wrote:
abundance wrote:Lowly and decidedly mid-table team my ass.

That Napoli was assembled by Italo Allodi and his heir, a certain Luciano Moggi, and had lads like Ferrara, Renica, Bagni, De Napoli and Giordano for the first scudetto, and added Alemao, Careca and Crippa for the second.



Still, Maradona >>>>>>>>>>> all


Don't overlook the Argie 86 squad(Passalrella,Kempes,Valdano,Ruggeri), i'm to young to have watched it but I have seen highlights of most WC's and even took the time to watch quite a few full games from various WC's and Euro championships,(Cruyffs,Beckenbauer,Maradona,Zico/Socarates,Landrups sides have a particular hold on my heart)

Kempes was not in the 86 team. And I don't think Passarella played either but if he did he would have been like 90 years old. It was not an overly gifted side. They barely qualified for the WC that year as I recall.
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fcb

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Re: Messi

Post by fcb on Thu Apr 05, 2012 7:03 am

Fine, let's play this game then. As I said, this argument is so stale already that every time it comes up, the same points are made repeatedly - not just on this board, but by everyone in real life and online.

But let me summarise them here, to please worms (and he is right in a way...most of us are so jaded with the usual arguments on this board that we can't be bothered to even reply). Since others have already detailed the 'against' arguments, I'll focus more on the 'for' ones.

---------------------

Why Messi is not fit to clean Maradona/Pele/Cruyff/Best/Beckenbauer/Maldini/Bebe's boots:

1. He is in a settled Barça team in a footballing style/culture that he knows since he was a kid; he hasn't proved himself in other leagues or tactical systems like in England or Italy.


2. The only time he does go outside his Barça zone - with the Argentinian international team and its lower quality players - he doesn't achieve the same things as he does at Barça.


3. Refs give too much protection nowadays, in the past defenders would have kicked the shit out of him and he would be in a wheelchair by now.


4. He can't do it on a cold and wet Tuesday night in Stoke.


Why Messi is the greatest ever:

1. Yes, he's in a comfort zone at Barça with other great players, but just like Maradona dragged Napoli up (the Italian posters here have already dispelled the myth that they were some kind of relegation battling modern-day Blackpool) from 'good' to 'great', Messi is the extra element that propels Barça from being just a very good team, to arguably the greatest team of all time (perhaps someone can start another thread on that). I watch every Barça game and I guarantee you that without Messi this team wouldn't have won as much as it has and with much as style as it has.


2. Do Xavi/Iniesta/Alves/etc. make Messi great, or does his brilliance and reliability make them great by allowing them to do their job under less pressure?


3. Football today is much more demanding than the past. It's no longer something you do in the day and then smoke and drink at night. The level of professionalism and medical science behind it borders on the insane.
Players run 10k or 11k a game, every 3 days! Yet Messi is still brilliant in his consistency throughout the season, for several seasons now. The famous names of the past could never even dream of maintaining this kind of physical activity, let alone perform at their usual brilliant level in every game, whether against a small team or a big team.


4. Sure, defenders aren't as violent today and refs aren't as lenient, but teams are much more organised and more focused on working as a team to stop Messi and other top players. The days of 4 or 5 goals being scored in big games are not so common anymore. Even small teams with a budget less than Messi's salary have the capability to defend as a wall against him and prevent him from playing his game.


5. The World Cup isn't a true test of quality anymore, or at least not as much as it used to be in the past. The Champions League is a much harder test and at a much higher level now, and Messi has done it in the CL multiple times.


6. He's only 24 and we're already having the 'greatest ever' debate. That already says a lot.

Even if his career tails off early (because he started early and plays 90 mins of every game), he still has at least another 3-4 years left to achieve more. By the time his career ends this debate may have been answered by default. So let's not get too worked up about it.


---------------------


Hope that satisfies everyone. You can pick and choose the ones you agree or disagree with and make your decision based on that.


Note that I don't agree with all the 'pros' and don't disagree with all the 'cons'. But on the balance of the arguments, and with personal bias taken into account, I firmly believe he is currently among the top 3 greatest ever, and will be the greatest ever by the time he retires.


For me, what makes Messi special is what a commentator said during some Liga game a couple of seasons ago - you know exactly what he's going to do, but you're still helpless to stop him from doing it.
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The Chosen Glenn

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Re: Messi

Post by The Chosen Glenn on Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:21 am

coming next week: Lampard vs Gerrard


and get your free CD
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Deluded F*ck™

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Re: Messi

Post by Deluded F*ck™ on Thu Apr 05, 2012 11:10 am

Fade out wrote:
Sheffield gunner wrote:Our old WUMs used to have so much more originality and humour in their efforts.

Ale

Magic

I still remember Otto's multiple posts on England and Holland around WC2006 - works of twisted genius.

Arnaud's small-pitch theory was brilliant - He even started winning over a a significant portion of the board when Henry struggled for goals halfway through 2006-07; For those who weren't watching football 5 years ago, this was Arsenal's 1st season in the Emirates. Ale
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S4P

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Re: Messi

Post by S4P on Thu Apr 05, 2012 11:34 am

Més que un club wrote:Defenders like Zanetti,Lucio and especially Samuel made him look very ordinary as well.Cambiasso and Motta were both intelligent enough to know how to play against him,let him have the ball in deep positions but once he gets within 25 yards of ball get tight to him and either force him away from goal with 1 or 2 players or try and take the ball of him.

And hope that your keeper makes an incredible save when he does beat them.


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