Messi

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messiah

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Re: Messi

Post by messiah on Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:23 pm

Gary busquets pops up yet again. Yep wean would be shit without the ball on d'or. And drogba is a much better player than him because he win the cl. Just go fuck yourself your so damn annoying

Emp. Nah eto'o is just a better player, but I wasn't having a eto'o vs drogba debate.
Just stating the fact that he finally won something outside of england has helped his legacy,just like winning the can with help it even more.

Cause let's be honest as just a pure footballer, he is a step behind the likes of Pele,eto'o and wean(which is why he is their hard busquets)

110%

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Re: Messi

Post by 110% on Wed Jan 09, 2013 2:38 pm

Are you a retard or did you get so angry when I pointed out how wrong you were about the number of finals Drogba had played in that you couldn't think or write coherently?

No-one has compared drogba to eto'o or weah except for you. I mentioned weah and traore as regards winning the CL since that is central to your nonsense reasoning about whether or not drogba is one of the greatest players to come out of africa.

As for "pure footballer" this just sounds like another line of BS to hold Drogba's physical strength against him, while completely ignoring that eto'o was basically a sprinter.
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messiah

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Re: Messi

Post by messiah on Wed Jan 09, 2013 2:42 pm

Jesus. I shouldn't even reply to Gary busquets.but he makes it too easy

Outside of England, outside, drogba before the final had fail to win anything outside of England, whether it be an Olympic gold,the acn or the cl. Now winning this has helped his legacy, HELPED. I don't know where winning the cl is central to my argument when I placed weah there yet again you jump into something not involving and add nothing to the conversation.

I don't know how I messiah the oracle would place winning the cl as central to anything when I have been Saying for years that it doesn't matter if a player wins the cl or wc. If he is a great player he is just a great player.

Hence weah, hence why Ibrahimovic is better than drogba.

I said help not define

No please stay out of things you do not understand



Last edited by messiah on Wed Jan 09, 2013 2:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Fade out

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Re: Messi

Post by Fade out on Wed Jan 09, 2013 2:51 pm

Drogba gave away both penalties in UCL which opposition missed, it'd have put his team out. But on the other hand, the mere fact that he had to defend for the team, defending Robben/Messi speaks volumes about the guy's single-minded pursuit to succeed for the team. As a individual footballer, most teams would like to sign Drogba to lift them into a trophy winning position. Drogba's all round play and his effect on the team could never be understated. If he hadn't foolishly got himself sent off, he'd have helped chelsea and Avram Grant to win their first CL few years back.

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Deluded F*ck™

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Re: Messi

Post by Deluded F*ck™ on Wed Jan 09, 2013 2:57 pm

Also what about what he did for Marseille in just 12 months, at a time when Lyon were the dominant force in France?
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messiah

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Re: Messi

Post by messiah on Wed Jan 09, 2013 3:06 pm

Deluded F*ck wrote:Also what about what he did for Marseille in just 12 months, at a time when Lyon were the dominant force in France?

Yeah he played some great stuff with them as well, by favourite version of him was when he was with them.

I don't know what's wrong with emp and Gary busquets. Who in their right mind would deny that winning the cl has helped to cement his place in history
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Kroos

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Re: Messi

Post by Kroos on Wed Jan 09, 2013 5:50 pm



LOL at peps head shaking
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Jaime

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Re: Messi

Post by Jaime on Wed Jan 09, 2013 6:18 pm

Kroos wrote:

LOL at peps head shaking

Mes que un club. Salute
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Kimbo

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Re: Messi

Post by Kimbo on Wed Jan 09, 2013 6:38 pm

Kroos wrote:

LOL at peps head shaking

Wow, that is classless. He'll get a shock if he comes to the premier league, we take our handshaking very seriously here.
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EMP

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Re: Messi

Post by EMP on Wed Jan 09, 2013 6:42 pm

messiah wrote:
Deluded F*ck wrote:Also what about what he did for Marseille in just 12 months, at a time when Lyon were the dominant force in France?

Yeah he played some great stuff with them as well, by favourite version of him was when he was with them.

I don't know what's wrong with emp and Gary busquets. Who in their right mind would deny that winning the cl has helped to cement his place in history

I did not say that it does help his legacy; I said he is plainly one of Africa's great players.
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Super Progress

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Re: Messi

Post by Super Progress on Wed Jan 09, 2013 6:49 pm

Messiah is back and debating cheers

Please continue 110% Biggrin
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messiah

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Re: Messi

Post by messiah on Wed Jan 09, 2013 6:52 pm

Mr progress is never too far away how will he flip flop now ad end up being wrong still. Razz

I kid.

No I'm not
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Super Progress

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Re: Messi

Post by Super Progress on Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:02 pm

I see you have maintained your special syntax. Biggrin
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EMP

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Re: Messi

Post by EMP on Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:38 pm

@ Messiah: Football is a team game, Johann Cruyff never won the World Cup, nor did Ferenc Puskas. Does that mean that they were not great players? Mohammed Aboutreika will be remembered as one of Africa's great players. Tell me how many Champion's League titles he has won? And while we're at it Godfrey Chitalu never played in Europe. Does that mean he is not one of Africa's greats. Ezzaki Badou played in Europe and was recently recognised as one of Africa's greats. He never won the Champion's League. Drogba is certainly among Africa's greats. Anyone who knows about African football and footballers would accept that is beyond dispute. Only his precise place in the list is in dispute and that can't be decided until his career ends.

110%

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Re: Messi

Post by 110% on Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:42 pm

Super Mourinho wrote:Messiah is back and debating cheers

Please continue 110% Biggrin

I shouldn't, but just because he's so retarded I am willing to try and help him.

It starts with:

messiah wrote:It ranks about 5th, but his performance at the last acn, is just another in a long run of failures outside the Prem. The last cl has really saved is legacy.


So "long list of failures" and "saved his legacy"

Then he states:

messiah wrote:

Fact is before the cl. He has won jack outside of England and before anyone mentions that he didn't play in one of the cl final. Ask yourself why.

And just to b clear I wasn't talking about his legacy at Chelsea, as I dint give a fuck about Chelsea. I was more talking about his legacy and place among african greats.


So he is focussed very much on the CL, and for some reason he incorrectly thinks Drogba missed a CL final which is just mental, and questions his place among african greats

Then he calls himself:

messiah wrote:

A MONG A MONG

Then finally bactracks completely on Drogba to:

messiah wrote:winning the cl has helped to cement his place in history

As if he has been supporting drogba all along and not saying he was a bit of a failure, questioning his place amongst african's greats and winning the CL saved him, which is exactly what he started with.

I am sure he will hit back with some random illiterate nonsense which people will be barely able to read, let alone understand, and statements about making this shit too easy.

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messiah

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Re: Messi

Post by messiah on Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:27 pm

EMP wrote:@ Messiah: Football is a team game, Johann Cruyff never won the World Cup, nor did Ferenc Puskas. Does that mean that they were not great players? Mohammed Aboutreika will be remembered as one of Africa's great players. Tell me how many Champion's League titles he has won? And while we're at it Godfrey Chitalu never played in Europe. Does that mean he is not one of Africa's greats. Ezzaki Badou played in Europe and was recently recognised as one of Africa's greats. He never won the Champion's League. Drogba is certainly among Africa's greats. Anyone who knows about African football and footballers would accept that is beyond dispute. Only his precise place in the list is in dispute and that can't be decided until his career ends.

Emp check my posting history and find where I have ever said x player needs to win x to be considered great, thats Mr progress he will of course flip flop on this as well.

But drogba needed the cl to put it over the stop. Much like eto'o did, much like Henry did.

These guys aren't like a messi,ronaldo the fat one and the likes, or a cryuff.

They are great but their is a debate to be had when their names are mentioned and winning things like the cl help's their case. It helps' his case

Example if I should say Ibrahimovic/ eto'o is better than drogba the first thing drogba fans will mention is the cl. It saved is legacy.

If I should say messi is better than zidane, no debate even without the wc
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messiah

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Re: Messi

Post by messiah on Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:38 pm

110% wrote:
Super Mourinho wrote:Messiah is back and debating cheers

Please continue 110% Biggrin

I shouldn't, but just because he's so retarded I am willing to try and help him.

It starts with:

messiah wrote:It ranks about 5th, but his performance at the last acn, is just another in a long run of failures outside the Prem. The last cl has really saved is legacy.


So "long list of failures" and "saved his legacy"

Then he states:

messiah wrote:

Fact is before the cl. He has won jack outside of England and before anyone mentions that he didn't play in one of the cl final. Ask yourself why.

And just to b clear I wasn't talking about his legacy at Chelsea, as I dint give a fuck about Chelsea. I was more talking about his legacy and place among african greats.


So he is focussed very much on the CL, and for some reason he incorrectly thinks Drogba missed a CL final which is just mental, and questions his place among african greats

Then he calls himself:

messiah wrote:

A MONG A MONG

Then finally bactracks completely on Drogba to:

messiah wrote:winning the cl has helped to cement his place in history

As if he has been supporting drogba all along and not saying he was a bit of a failure, questioning his place amongst african's greats and winning the CL saved him, which is exactly what he started with.

I am sure he will hit back with some random illiterate nonsense which people will be barely able to read, let alone understand, and statements about making this shit too easy.



lol! this guy and his selective quoting.

He focuses on the cl

When I said "fail to win anything outside of England, outside of England".
Whether it be the cl,a gold medal or the af c. Hence Messiah the oracle was highlighting drogba's lack of success outside of England.

Then I went on to mention the one thing he won outside of england and how this helped to save his legacy.

Smh Gary busquets
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Isco Benny

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Re: Messi

Post by Isco Benny on Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:44 pm

Kimbo wrote:
Kroos wrote:

LOL at peps head shaking

Wow, that is classless. He'll get a shock if he comes to the premier league, we take our handshaking very seriously here.

Mark Hughes isn't around though to throw his toys out of his pram about it.

Really though, isn't that also a shake of the head I see by baked bean head in that clip?

Now I dislike Cronaldo as much as the next man, but I'd still shake his hand if offered in public. It's what Gentlemen do, the very last bastion of dignified gentry in this day and age.

Those Latin types can play football better than anyone, but in terms of acting civilised, they are a lost cause says I
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messiah

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Re: Messi

Post by messiah on Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:56 pm

Pep doesn't play the hypocrite role at all has zlatan,dinho,deco and others found out. If he doesn't like you he instantly becomes a 15 year old girl.
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EMP

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Re: Messi

Post by EMP on Wed Jan 09, 2013 11:12 pm

messiah wrote:
EMP wrote:@ Messiah: Football is a team game, Johann Cruyff never won the World Cup, nor did Ferenc Puskas. Does that mean that they were not great players? Mohammed Aboutreika will be remembered as one of Africa's great players. Tell me how many Champion's League titles he has won? And while we're at it Godfrey Chitalu never played in Europe. Does that mean he is not one of Africa's greats. Ezzaki Badou played in Europe and was recently recognised as one of Africa's greats. He never won the Champion's League. Drogba is certainly among Africa's greats. Anyone who knows about African football and footballers would accept that is beyond dispute. Only his precise place in the list is in dispute and that can't be decided until his career ends.

Emp check my posting history and find where I have ever said x player needs to win x to be considered great, thats Mr progress he will of course flip flop on this as well.

But drogba needed the cl to put it over the stop.
Much like eto'o did, much like Henry did.

See the contradiction in the comment above Messiah? What is the difference between being put over the top by success in the Champion's League and needing to win it to be considered great. Furthermore you plainly did not consider Drogba to be among Africa's greats. You shouted your rejection of that when I said he was among Africa's greats. He plainly is and he did not need a lucky win in the CL final to be a great. If someone else missed a couple of penalties and Chelsea lost, which could easily have happened, how is that his fault? You cannot win a tournament on your own in a team game which football is.

These guys aren't like a messi,ronaldo the fat one and the likes, or a cryuff.

They are great but their is a debate to be had when their names are mentioned and winning things like the cl help's their case. It helps' his case

FFS who said it didn't help his case to win it? Of course it does, but as you now acknowledge he will be considered a great - certainly an African great and rightly so. And by the way, Didier Drogba also found time to help stop a civil war. He is working towards reconciliation in that tortured land. How many footballers use their celebrity for the greater good of humanity as Drogba has. That makes him a great person, not just a great footballer.


Example if I should say Ibrahimovic/ eto'o is better than drogba the first thing drogba fans will mention is the cl. It saved is legacy.

If I should say messi is better than zidane, no debate even without the wc

How exactly would Drogba fans mention the CL in comparison to Eto'o for example? It does not come into it at all. Drogba is a team man. Eto'o is too, but can that be said of Ibrahimovic. Your attempts to detract from his achievements because he played for Chelsea conveniently ignores that the bulk of his career came at Chelsea. He only had one season with a chance of a trophy elsewhere - Marseilles. His achievements at Chelsea deserve respect and also at international level. Drogba was Ivory Coast's talisman and is his country's record goal-scorer and before you scoff a compatriot held the ACN record for 40 odd years Pokou. In other words the record was not a soft one. That was broken by Eto'o, but Drogba has surpassed Pokou for his country and may do more. Some of you insult the ACN, but Eto'o for all his skill has not had the power to add to his record as Cameroon failed to qualify for the last two ACNs. Ivory Coast lost the ACN final in 2006 and 2012, both times on penalties. You can't get closer. They lost as a team. Ivory Coast has won the ACN once in 1992 and did it on penalties. Can anyone say those players are better than Drogba. Anyone suggesting that in Ivory Coast would be deservedly laughed out of the place.

Drogba's honours show that football people appreciate his contributions.

Honours



Chelsea F.C. after winning their league and cup double, May 2010


Deciding penalty kick of Didier Drogba in the Champions League Final 2012
Chelsea
Premier League (3): 200405, 200506, 200910
FA Cup (4): 200607, 200809, 200910, 201112
Football League Cup (2): 200405, 200607
FA Community Shield (2): 2005, 2009
UEFA Champions League (1): 201112
Individual
Onze d'Or: 2004
UEFA Cup Top Scorer: 200304
Ligue 1 Goal of the Year: 200304
Ligue 1 Team of the Year: 200304
Ligue 1 Player of the Year: 200304
African Footballer of the Year: 2006, 2009
Chelsea Players' Player of the Year: 2007
Golden Boot Landmark Award 10: 200607
Golden Boot Landmark Award 20: 200607
PFA Team of the Year: 200607, 200910
FA Community Shield Man of the Match: 2005
Cte d'Ivoire Player of the Year: 2007, 2012
League Cup Final Man of the Match: 2007
Premier League Golden Boot: 2007, 2010
FA Cup Final Man of the Match: 2010
ESM Team of the Year: 200607
UEFA Team of the Year: 2007
FIFA/FIFPro World XI: 2007
BBC African Footballer of the Year: 2009
Chelsea Player of the Year: 2010
Time Top 100: 2010
Africa Cup Top Scorer: 2012
Africa Cup Team of the Tournament: 2006, 2008, 2012
UEFA Champions League Final Man of the Match: 2012
Cte d'Ivoire all-time Top Scorer

Conclusion: Didier Drogba is an African great, which is what I said in the first place.
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messiah

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Re: Messi

Post by messiah on Wed Jan 09, 2013 11:38 pm

messiah wrote:
I wasn't talking about his performance in the final only, If he played shit in the final but played a part in the team winning it still counts.

Fact is before the cl. He has won jack outside of England and before anyone mentions that he didn't play in one of the cl final. Ask yourself why.

And just to b clear I wasn't talking about his legacy at Chelsea, as I dint give a fuck about Chelsea. I was more talking about his legacy and place among african greats.

The pele's,weah's and eto'o's.

So I don't know why the hell your telling me about Chelsea.


Tell me Where did i say he is Not among africans. Notice I saved is place among African greats, or is it that I didn't list his name with those 3, so you have failed to make the connection.

Seems to me you are getting up in arms because I said something about the African cup.

So I don't know where this rant about Chelsea and eto'o is coming from.

As I don't give a rats ass about his legacy at Chelsea and I would never compare eto'o to drogba.


Besides you have already said the cl win helped his legacy which it has so I am done.

Save: to preserve,rescue or guard
Help: to rescue or save
Among: in company or association with

Webster dictionary app.

Because it seems this whole shit is because I said saved his legacy, the words can be use interchangeably my friends.

So to repeat winning the cl has saved drogba's legacy, as he had fail to win jack outside of England before that.this win has given his place among the Africa greats an even stronger footing.

Now if anyone fails to under the meaning of among and save/help that's their problem.
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EMP

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Re: Messi

Post by EMP on Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:05 am

Rosicky wrote:
Kimbo wrote:Well it's like saying "so and so did x in the Swiss league", isn't it? tongue How far down the list of international tournaments is the ACN in terms of prestige?

Rock bottom. Drogba scored in 2 of 6 games, and was a disgrace in the final ( missing a pen in normal time, and going on to lose to the mighty and all conquering Zambia). So i have no idea how this is a relevant to the discussion, just shoe horning African into the conversation as usual.

Regarding Drogba, it was in the context of the year that he had in football. Drogba is a team player who created space and opportunities for others. There is more to his game than just scoring you cretinous fuckwit. As for the all-conquering Zambia. They beat Ghana and Ivory Coast which were two of the favourites, among others. They conquered all they came up against. Wouldn't expect such an imbecile like you to understand that Zambia played good football, were well organised and won on merit against teams that were better on paper.

In terms of [i]WORLD[i] player of the year achievement in Africa count. For example Iniesta's achievements at the Euros contributed to the recognition of his achievements in the year as a whole and Pirlo's too even though he lost at the Euros in a far worse manner than Drogba at ACN. Like it or not African football is relevant to world football discussions. Now kindly stop wasting my time with your ignorant drivel.
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EMP

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Re: Messi

Post by EMP on Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:35 am

messiah wrote:
messiah wrote:
I wasn't talking about his performance in the final only, If he played shit in the final but played a part in the team winning it still counts.

Fact is before the cl. He has won jack outside of England and before anyone mentions that he didn't play in one of the cl final. Ask yourself why.

And just to b clear I wasn't talking about his legacy at Chelsea, as I dint give a fuck about Chelsea. I was more talking about his legacy and place among african greats.

The pele's,weah's and eto'o's.

So I don't know why the hell your telling me about Chelsea.


Tell me Where did i say he is Not among africans. Notice I saved is place among African greats, or is it that I didn't list his name with those 3, so you have failed to make the connection.

Seems to me you are getting up in arms because I said something about the African cup.

So I don't know where this rant about Chelsea and eto'o is coming from.

As I don't give a rats ass about his legacy at Chelsea and I would never compare eto'o to drogba.


Besides you have already said the cl win helped his legacy which it has so I am done.

Save: to preserve,rescue or guard
Help: to rescue or save
Among: in company or association with

Webster dictionary app.

Because it seems this whole shit is because I said saved his legacy, the words can be use interchangeably my friends.

So to repeat winning the cl has saved drogba's legacy, as he had fail to win jack outside of England before that.this win has given his place among the Africa greats an even stronger footing.

Now if anyone fails to under the meaning of among and save/help that's their problem.

You said "It [ACN] ranks about 5th, but his performance at the last acn, is just another in a long run of failures outside the Prem."

No it doesn't. If it was that crap, it should be easy to win especially with the talent around him. It is not at all easy to win as they were unlucky enough to face an exceptional team in African terms in Egypt. The Egyptian infrastructure has been dismantled now due to political problems. In Egypt football played a big part in the bringing down of Mubarak. This has had serious effect on Egypt and created the opportunity for others. Defeat on penalties (twice) is not another in a long list of failures - it was the closest you can get to winning without actually winning and at that stage it depends on others as well. Ivory Coast failed to win, not just Drogba. It is not his failure - it is a team failure and that should not count against him. Do you consider Roberto Baggio or Franco Baresi failures because Italy lost on penalties in 1994? I seem to recall Baggio's was a truly horrible penalty. Wasn't Baggio one of the best players in that tournament.

Ghana lost on penalties in the ACN to Ivory Coast in 1992. Abedi Pele was the Player of the Tournament, but he was suspended for final. Was he a failure because he never won the ACN while playing [he was in the winning squad in 1982, but didn't contribute]?

You said, "The last cl has really saved is legacy."

No it hasn't. It has added to his legacy. I said, "Only an idiot judges Drogba's legacy at Chelsea by the Champion's League success. It is his greatest achievement, but among many."

You said "I was more talking about his legacy and place among african greats.

The pele's,weah's and eto'o's." This clearly implies that without the CL success his [place is considerably lower, even though had a penalty shoot-out in Moscow had a different outcome he would have won a CL medal and cemented his legacy in your eyes despite getting himself sent off and contributing nothing.

As my computer is running low on charge I'll leave at this. Where do you rate Drogba among African greats now? And where would you rate him if Chelsea didn't win the Champion's League? And why?


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messiah

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Re: Messi

Post by messiah on Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:17 am

Again I will not get dragged into if x player didn't win y, because as I said I have been saying for years on here that a player in not defined by a signle game and I am no flip flopper.

I even said here that it didnt matter if he played shit in the final as long as he helped his team win.

As it relates to where he would rank without.

Let me first say that I did say win something outside of England, whether it be a gold medal,the African cup or the cl, basically everything a player of his status has a chance of winning, so I don't want people to focus on the cl only.

So if he had won any one of these medals I would said the same thing, the main thrust of my argument is that he had won nothing outside of England.

Now as to where he would have rank with or without the cl I cannot give a specific number. But their is no denying that winning the cl a cement his place on that list.
If it had no effect, then what you are saying is that eto'o's. 3cl,2acn,1 Olympic gold. Is not one of the primary reason why he will be regarded as one of the best African players ever.

It seems the whole 5th thing it a nerve, but that is where its at, the wc,euros,cops American,confed cup, is all ranked above it, but it is the African championship and for Africans, is as important as the euros and copa America and rightly so. But overall its about 5th, well 4th since the copa and euros are on the same level.

110%

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Re: Messi

Post by 110% on Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:37 am

messiah wrote:
messiah wrote:
I wasn't talking about his performance in the final only, If he played shit in the final but played a part in the team winning it still counts.

Fact is before the cl. He has won jack outside of England and before anyone mentions that he didn't play in one of the cl final. Ask yourself why.

And just to b clear I wasn't talking about his legacy at Chelsea, as I dint give a fuck about Chelsea. I was more talking about his legacy and place among african greats.

The pele's,weah's and eto'o's.

So I don't know why the hell your telling me about Chelsea.


Tell me Where did i say he is Not among africans. Notice I saved is place among African greats, or is it that I didn't list his name with those 3, so you have failed to make the connection.

Seems to me you are getting up in arms because I said something about the African cup.

So I don't know where this rant about Chelsea and eto'o is coming from.

As I don't give a rats ass about his legacy at Chelsea and I would never compare eto'o to drogba.


Besides you have already said the cl win helped his legacy which it has so I am done.

Save: to preserve,rescue or guard
Help: to rescue or save
Among: in company or association with

Webster dictionary app.

Because it seems this whole shit is because I said saved his legacy, the words can be use interchangeably my friends.

So to repeat winning the cl has saved drogba's legacy, as he had fail to win jack outside of England before that.this win has given his place among the Africa greats an even stronger footing.

Now if anyone fails to under the meaning of among and save/help that's their problem.

Either you need to change your dictionary app or you've blatantly lied about the definitions lol!
Help: to aid or assist (even in webster's online they don't mention save or rescue)

It would have been more honest if you just admitted you got it wrong as you usually do.

It's also funny that in introducing us to the term "flip flopper" you've provided us with 2 examples of flip flopping within the same thread:
- Drogba's status as one of africa's greats
- a player doesn't have to win x to be considered great, but drogba does have to win something internationally to be considered great Doh

I also find amusing:
messiah wrote:
Let me first say that I did say win something outside of England, whether it be a gold medal,the African cup or the cl, basically everything a player of his status has a chance of winning, so I don't want people to focus on the cl only.


Because Weah never won any of those either. Just to be clear, since you need to have this spelled out to you, I am NOT comparing drogba and weah, I am pointing out the inconsistencies in your BS.

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EMP

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Re: Messi

Post by EMP on Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:03 am

messiah wrote:Again I will not get dragged into if x player didn't win y, because as I said I have been saying for years on here that a player in not defined by a signle game and I am no flip flopper.

I even said here that it didnt matter if he played shit in the final as long as he helped his team win.


Abedi Pele is considered one of Africa's greats and rightly so. AS I pointed out earlier he won the African Cup of Nations as a member of Charles Gyamfi's squad in 1982. He did not win it actually on the pitch playing. He came close in 1992, but had he won that tournament it would have been without playing in the final. John Terry has a Champion's League winner's medal. What did he do in the final to help Chelsea win. Has his legacy been saved by that? Abedi Pele won the Champion's League with Olympique Marseilles in 1993. While OM was stripped of various prizes for that season and thrown out of the competition for the following season due to the Bernard Tapie scandal that remained - a surely tainted prize. What defines Abedi's greatness in African football then?

As it relates to where he would rank without.

Why? It was a lottery that they won it. Drogba was the stand out player in that final at least for Chelsea. If team-mates had missed their penalties, would his contribution have been any less? His legacy does not depend on a single match, but according to your posts this is clearly the single match that defines his 'greatness in African football'

Let me first say that I did say win something outside of England, whether it be a gold medal,the African cup or the cl, basically everything a player of his status has a chance of winning, so I don't want people to focus on the cl only.

So if he had won any one of these medals I would said the same thing, the main thrust of my argument is that he had won nothing outside of England.


Where does that leave Abedi Pele? Where does that leave George Weah? Where does that Godfrey Chitalu and many others recognised in Africa - the place that knows most about African footballers - as African greats?

Now as to where he would have rank with or without the cl I cannot give a specific number. But their is no denying that winning the cl a cement his place on that list.

It helps his case and may improve his final position - nothing more. You cannot win tournaments without team-mates performing as well, so success and greatness cannot be judged by winning tournaments. Ever heard of Mazzola? Check his records. He never won the World Cup. He never won the European Cup. He never won the Euros. By your definition of greatness, he cannot be considered a great, yet he played for a team whose records have stood the test of time. He was the exceptional player in a truly great side - one that rivals Barcelona and has stood the test of time. Was he anything but an all time great?

If it had no effect, then what you are saying is that eto'o's. 3cl,2acn,1 Olympic gold. Is not one of the primary reason why he will be regarded as one of the best African players ever.

Eto'o has played in great (in their context) teams. He could not have achieved as much without playing in those teams. Drogba has not had that luxury. At those times Cameroon was the best in Africa. Didier Drogba didn't play for them. Barcelona deservedly won those CLs. Drogba did not play for them. If he had he would have those medals. He played (brilliantly) for teams that were not on the same level as the teams that Eto'o played for. I personally think that Eto'o's achievements at Inter are higher than Barca becuse nobody was saying what a great side Inter was compared to Barca. I don't know how many times I have to say it: football is a TEAM game. You win and lose as a team not as an individual, so tournament success should come near the bottom of the list and should be in context. Success with an 'ordinary team' being valued higher than with a team like Barca. Put simply; if you couldn't win anything significant with that Barca team, there's something wrong with you. Drogba never had that opportunity and it shouldn't count against him unless you are trying to say he was never good enough to play for you. I'd also say that the Olympic title is hardly a great measure given its restrictions. Correct me if I'm wrong, but is that not the only senior title at international level that Messi has won? It is a title, nothing more. Its significance diminisheded in 1932 and only remained that long because the deserved World champions also won it, retainning their title. After the restrictions it must surely be viewed as a title whose value is pretty low in the grand scheme of things. I mentioned Bwalya's achievements there because it was against a supposedly far better team and scored against an international class Italian goalkeeper who still has 'nightmares about Bwalya's performance'.

It seems the whole 5th thing it a nerve, but that is where its at, the wc,euros,cops American,confed cup, is all ranked above it, but it is the African championship and for Africans, is as important as the euros and copa America and rightly so. But overall its about 5th, well 4th since the copa and euros are on the same level.

Now that this is in context it is a far more valid opinion than it first seemed. However, I would dispute the Confed Cup being higher. It is not taken seriously by most. Look at Spain. Does it affect Spain's position in world football and as one of it not the greatest international side ever that they haven't won it.

Furthermore, if the Copa ranks so highly, why doesn't Messi's failure to win that count against him at all? In terms of an African it is pointless comparing ACN to Copa or Euros as by definition it is irrelevant to an African. He can't win those, as he can't play in them, so what is the point mentioning it? It is also completely irrelevant to a discussion about whether a player is an African great or not and where his position in that list is. The ACN, Confed Cup if you must and World Cup are the fair arbiters for an African, but the team point remains. Drogba has never had the opportunity to play in the Confed Cup. Judge him by what he can compete in and in the context of those around him too. Player for player I doubt many would argue that Eto'o has had better quality team-mates around him than Drogba. All I'm saying is that context should be included in the discussion. Do you think Drogba would not have had those successes on his team if he had played in the teams that Eto'o did? And would Eto'o have been as successful if he had played for Chelsea and Ivory Coast. I'd hazard a guess that their success records would have been reversed - they'd both have achieved no more than the other has in their respective teams. In fact Eto'o may not have achieved as much for reasons stated above. This is why greatness of individuals in a team sport should not be judged by trophies - at least as the main thing.
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messiah

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Re: Messi

Post by messiah on Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:40 pm

Oh brother you keep popping up with this one game thing, ignoring what I have said constantly, I said winning any of the three titles he has any chance of winning outside of England, the title not how well x player played in one game(did I not say I wasn't talking about his performance in the final only). If he didn't play in the final but Chelsea won It would still count. You fail to make basic connection and you are a journalist.

Seems you either lack understanding or you are African and just want to take anyone one once the mention Africa. its now starting to waste my time.

A few loose ends.

1) messi is a all time great and he has won the most difficult competition in world twice, putting in some of the best performance one has ever seen in the comp during the process, so he doesn't need the copa or a wc. Even if he didn't win these things he would still be a all time great, due to his play on the field, but these tittles only helps to push him up the list, much like drogba.

2) where did I say drogba needs to win the copa or euros?, I said he failed to win the cl,af cup,a gold medal, I.e the only cups a African has any chance of winning. Again. You fail to make basic connections and went on a needless rant.

3) as it relates to my man eto'o, to put it simply he played in great teams but he never for a second look out of place playing in any of those teams, tells you something doesn't it. Now please don't come with you brilliant line of reasoning about what if drogba played there on all of that unless you have figure out a way to open a parallel universe where he does, the facts or the facts,

4) you said something about Cameroon being the best team in Africa and blah blah, cannot be bothered to scroll up, I put it to you do most of the world not think the ivory coast is the most talented team I'm Africa at this present moment.
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EMP

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Re: Messi

Post by EMP on Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:46 pm

messiah wrote:Oh brother you keep popping up with this one game thing, ignoring what I have said constantly, I said winning any of the three titles he has any chance of winning outside of England, the title not how well x player played in one game

You cannot win any of those titles without winning one game in particular - the final, so winning any of those three titles is about winning one game. Pretty obvious really. It is annoying that you do not understand that your opinion on the importance of winning any of those titles is plainly about winning one match. It cannot be otherwise.

(did I not say I wasn't talking about his performance in the final only). If he didn't play in the final but Chelsea won It would still count. You fail to make basic connection and you are a journalist.

This is absurd. It means he did not contribute in the most important match the one that decided whether his team became champion or not, yet according to you it puts him over the line. That is plainly down to one match - one result really.

Seems you either lack understanding or you are African and just want to take anyone one once the mention Africa. its now starting to waste my time.

No it's my time that is being wasted

A few loose ends.

1) messi is a all time great and he has won the most difficult competition in world twice, putting in some of the best performance one has ever seen in the comp during the process, so he doesn't need the copa or a wc. Even if he didn't win these things he would still be a all time great, due to his play on the field, but these tittles only helps to push him up the list, much like drogba.

2) where did I say drogba needs to win the copa or euros?,

You mentioned the Copa and Euros in a discussion about Drogba. I said that it is irrelevant regarding Drogba as he doesn't and cannot play in them. The point is pretty obvious really. Apparently you cannot understand or see the connection.

I said he failed to win the cl,af cup,a gold medal, I.e the only cups a African has any chance of winning. Again. You fail to make basic connections and went on a needless rant.

No I answered your point on that with reference to Eto'o and the teas that he plays in. You seem unable tpo appreciate the role that team-mates play in winning these titles

3) as it relates to my man eto'o, to put it simply he played in great teams but he never for a second look out of place playing in any of those teams, tells you something doesn't it.

It tells you that Eto'o is a great player, which I don't dispute, but it doesn't count against Drogba

Now please don't come with you brilliant line of reasoning about what if drogba played there on all of that unless you have figure out a way to open a parallel universe where he does, the facts or the facts,

Way too completely miss the point being made. It was referring to the contribution of team-mates

4) you said something about Cameroon being the best team in Africa and blah blah, cannot be bothered to scroll up, I put it to you do most of the world not think the ivory coast is the most talented team I'm Africa at this present moment.

The current FIFA rankings would suggest otherwise and so would common sense. Who do you think is the best team in Africa at the moment?

I plainly meant Cameroon was the best team in Africa when Eto'o won his ACN titles, which they were and that Eto'o has had better quality team-mates around him than Drogba has. I also notice you completely failed to answer the Mazzola point. By the way Mazzola's not African. How many world cups, Euro's and European Cups did he win? Was he or was he not an all time great? Yes or no? Here's a couple of quotes by and about him to help you.

Football will always be a game of eleven." Mazzola

Get the point yet?

He alone is half the squad. The other half is made by the rest of us together. A team-mate of Mazzola.

He had high quality team-mates, but he was the best player in that team and for his country too, but unlike Messi he never got the chance to play in the World Cup.

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Re: Messi

Post by Jaime on Tue Jul 30, 2013 8:55 pm



Messi! Ale

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