Messi

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worms.

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Re: Messi

Post by worms. on Wed Apr 25, 2012 6:39 am

Here is a post from someone on Barca forum who agrees with me,I'm just posting this so everyone sees I am not the only one who thinks what I think:

Chelsea, Inter, Arsenal(watch the first half of the second leg last year), Madrid(when Pepe was still on) and a whole host of other teams at international level have once again stopped Messi. Messi, like Ronaldo, struggles against well organised and disciplined teams. I am sorry, I know the fanatics will be attacking me and claiming I am this and that, but it is simply the truth. I said a few days ago after the Madrid game I wouldn't give my opinion about Messi in big games against organised teams but I have to now.

Firstly, Messi is a great player and has done some amazing things. But lets be honest, he is playing at a time when football is in rapid decline. Even tonights Chelsea were not a patch on their old self. Tonight, the game was crying out for one man, Ronaldinho(when he was at his best).

Secondly, this is not some capricious rant at Messi because he was awful tonight and at fault for the first goal in the first leg, not at all. I have always maintained this view. Evidence is as follows:

Chelsea: In 06, when Messi announced himself in Europe, his performance was hailed as magnificent. Although he played very well, we need to put it into context. Firstly, before Del Horono got sent off, Messi had not created any clear cut chances or scored himself. He had had a few nice little exchanges with Deco and that was about it. Other than that, he was contained. When Del Horono got sent off, Messi really influenced the game, but with 11 v 10. Fair enough, he still played well and he was only 18. The return leg he was obviously injured.

The next season, Messi played Chelsea and was compltely outclassed by Ashley Cole in both games, besides one moment in the first game. To counter this for Messi, Barca were not anyway near the level they were at last season due to lack of motivation, etc. So again, Messi's lack of performance in that game could be excused.

In the treble winning season, Messi was at the peak of his powers. Destroying abysmal defences in La Lifa and Europe, Madrid, Bayern, Lyon all were torn asunder by Messi and it was great to watch. However, when Chelsea came to town, all that changed. Boswinga, marked Messi out of the first leg as well as Chelsea's defense keeping him at bay. In the next leg, again, besides one moment, Messi was marked out of the game by Cole and he simply did not perform. I am not on about scoring, that means nothing at all. just because Messi hasn't scored against Chelsea means nothing. Ronaldo scored against us last weekend and I honestly thought he had an average game up until that goal. It is the fact he does not perform against them. Why is that? For me, it is because he cannot play against well organised teams that defend.

The two ties against Chelsea just gone and Messi really was found wanting, especially in the second leg. Firstly, this Chelsea team are no way near the team that Ronaldinho destroyed on a few occasions. Terry, Lampard, Drogba, Cech(because of his injury) are not the players that they were. Essien cannot even get a game now because he is a shadow of the player he was. Chelsea have also lost great players like Carvalho and Makelele.

In the first leg, Messi had one or two moments, but nothing spectacular.It wasn't as if he was against that great Chelsea team of 2004 or 2006. He was up against a Chelsea with Mikel, Meriles, Cahill and a host of players getting on because of age. Messi though, still, against an organised team, could not perform and cost us the goal that Drogba scored.

In tonight's game, he was no better. He missed two great chances, but I don't fault him for that. I fault him for the performance all round. OK, he set up Iniesta's goal, but that cannot expiate for his performance. Again, against an organised team, there was no beating 5 or 6 players. He wasn't playing against inept Leverkusen players more interested in his shirt, or inept La Liga defenders, he was playing against an organised team that shut him down. When Chelsea went down to 10 men, I though "now Messi will punish them", but he didn't. Chelsea were stubborn and played a great game. But their defense consisted of players out of position and players who do not even get their game for Chelsea, like Boswinga. Yet Messi, was simply anonymous. And what happened? He constantly gave the ball away and moaned. It is the truth, I am sorry. Again, the penalty miss was irrelevant because anyone can miss a peno, but besides the assist to Iniesta and the shot saved by Cech, Messi was poor tonight and a real dissapointment.

Inter Milan: This really doesn't need a conscientious explanation. Messi was shut out by Zannetti and Cambiasso in the semi's against Inter. But go back to the group game that season. Chivu(when he was a top player before his head injury) shut out Messi as did the rest of Inter. Messi, as soon as things didn't go his way, began throwing the arms in the air or stopped pressing. I am sorry, it is the truth. He did not perform at all against a "well organised team". The contrast in Inter v the Chelsea team tonight is profound as Zanetti, Maicon, Samuel, Lucio, Cambiasso and Motta were a far better defensive unit than Ivanovic, Terry, Cahill, Cole, Mikel and Rameries.

Arsenal 2011: Please, if anyone gets a chance, watch this game. Until Messi scored(it was a great goal, but a gift because of Cesc) Messi was found wanting when he didn't have space and time on the ball. Watch this first half. Watch Mess at around 25 mins begin to stop pressing and start moaning because he wasn't getting it his own way. When Arsenal parked the bus, Messi did not play, it is again, simple. His goal was magnificent, but it was set up by Iniesta after Cesc made a detrimental error. This was an Arsenal team hardly renowned for its great defending.

Ac Milan: In the first leg, Messi was anonymous and found wanting with a man marker on him and a stubborn Milan defense. In the second leg, it was slightly different as Milan ended up chasing the game after a penalty that should have never been given. Either way, his performance against a decaying Milan defence was questionable from the supposedly best player of all time.

Madrid, Cope Final and CL semi's: In the Copa final, Messi was anonymous because of Pepe man marking him. No need to elaborate, we all know what happened. But in the game at the Bernabeau, before Pepe got sent off, Messi was wholly ineffective and was not influencing the game at all. When Madrid parked the bus, Messi did not play at all and Barca were found wanting, until the sending off. If Pepe had of been on the pitch for the 90 mins, Messi would not have scored "that" second game, there is no way he would have. One could argue he has scored against Madrid in the Spanish cup this year or the goal against Madrid in the 09/10 season, fair enough. But I am talking solely about when Madrid defended and did nothing else. I am talking about when Madrid were playing to catch Barca on the counter. Even his performances against Madrid this season in the league and Copa have been questionable. If you want to talk about assists, that's fair enough, he has 5 assists against Madrid. But the assists for Pedro and Abidal were games when he was awful, particularly the Copa game at the Bernabeau. I even remember people on here during the chat when the match was on lambasting Messi for not closing down and giving the ball away, repeatedly.

I am not saying this to wind people up, just giving my opinion. I am not even saying that Messi bottles big games, not at all. He has done it in two champions league finals and a hole host of other important games. But his performances agains teams that defend well and solely come to defend against Barca has been questionable and it is why I still feel that Ronaldinho was a much better player then Messi and Ronaldo. As soon as Ronaldo and Messi come up against man markers or well organised teams they struggle. Ronaldinho in 06 was playing against AC Milan in the San Siro. That Milan team and an impeccable defense and also, Gattuso was man marking Dinho. Ronaldinho destroyed Milan and Gattuso and played well throughout whilst also setting up the winner. And then you go back to Ronaldinho against Chelsea when he dragged us past Chelsea, almost by himself at times, using his pace, vision, strength and everything else.

Messi for me has a long way to go to be mentioned in the same breath as Zidane and Ronaldinho. Becuase they were able for tight defensive teams, Mess, I am afarid is not. I expect the fanatics on here to be scandalized and engage in insults rather than debate, but yeah, that's my opinion.

On the match as a whole. We were unlucky and I think Chelsea being applauded by the Camp Nou sums it up: It wasn't mean't to be and we must congratulate Chelsea. Although, I think Pep got it wrong again with his team selection. Alves on the bench? 3-4-3? Iniesta still on the left? Tello as a sub when Pedro is on the bench? Shocking!
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fcb

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Re: Messi

Post by fcb on Wed Apr 25, 2012 9:52 am

I have 2 questions for those on the "Messi can't do it against organised defenses, therefore he's not great" bandwagon. Hopefully by answering these, you will realise the flaw in your argument.

I'll start with the first question - worms, as the key representative of that brigade on this board (though Super should obviously join in), you can answer:



Ronaldo and Ronaldinho aside, who are the players who you think compete with Messi for the title of greatest player of the last 20 years (to remove part of the era-comparison problem)?

worms.

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Re: Messi

Post by worms. on Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:28 am

fcb wrote:I have 2 questions for those on the "Messi can't do it against organised defenses, therefore he's not great" bandwagon. Hopefully by answering these, you will realise the flaw in your argument.

I'll start with the first question - worms, as the key representative of that brigade on this board (though Super should obviously join in), you can answer:



Ronaldo and Ronaldinho aside, who are the players who you think compete with Messi for the title of greatest player of the last 20 years (to remove part of the era-comparison problem)?

Baggio,Romario,Brazilian Ronaldo,Ronaldinho,Rivaldo,Maldini,Nesta,Xavi,Pirlo,Totti,Figo.

I don't understand why you don't want me to mention Ronaldo and Ronaldinho.
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S4P

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Re: Messi

Post by S4P on Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:58 am

Let's be fair for a moment. No one player is unstoppable. Even Ronaldinho was stopped by Boulharouz in the 06-07 games. In the 05-06 game, 1 magic moment at the Camp Nou (Messi was the star performer in the 1-2 at Stamford Bridge, so I disagree with the article above. Del Horno's red card was very soft, but Messi had been giving him the runaround before that). In the 04-05 games, Ronaldinho had another great moment this time at Stamford Bridge with his wonder goal. With his goals you can justify saying that Ronaldinho made more of a contribution to these games than Messi, but to say that Ronaldinho was the difference in these games was untrue.

I would argue that Barca miss Eto'o more than they miss Ronaldinho in these games. Could you imagine Eto'o missing some of the great chances that Alexis, Fabregas etc missed?

No one player is completely unstoppable. Would Pele, Maradonna, Cruyff etc be able to produce against teams that are as excellent in defence as the teams listed in the article and have the physical stamina to do it for 40-60 minutes with a player less?

worms.

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Re: Messi

Post by worms. on Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:36 am

S4P wrote:Let's be fair for a moment. No one player is unstoppable. Even Ronaldinho was stopped by Boulharouz in the 06-07 games. In the 05-06 game, 1 magic moment at the Camp Nou (Messi was the star performer in the 1-2 at Stamford Bridge, so I disagree with the article above. Del Horno's red card was very soft, but Messi had been giving him the runaround before that). In the 04-05 games, Ronaldinho had another great moment this time at Stamford Bridge with his wonder goal. With his goals you can justify saying that Ronaldinho made more of a contribution to these games than Messi, but to say that Ronaldinho was the difference in these games was untrue.

I would argue that Barca miss Eto'o more than they miss Ronaldinho in these games. Could you imagine Eto'o missing some of the great chances that Alexis, Fabregas etc missed?

No one player is completely unstoppable. Would Pele, Maradonna, Cruyff etc be able to produce against teams that are as excellent in defence as the teams listed in the article and have the physical stamina to do it for 40-60 minutes with a player less?

Maradona did.In Serie A when there was great defenses and he played for a much worse team than Messi.Also for Argentina he carried the team on his own.

There's no doubt in my mind that Maradona was better at creating chances against these packed defenses and was much stronger at holding off defenders,but Messis only 24 and he has shown glimpses of doing it,he definitely has the potential.

Remember it's not like I'm saying he's shit,I'm just saying when people say he's the best ever(a lot of people nowadays) I think that's overrating him,I still already have him as a top 6 or 7 player ever for sure.He's only going to move up my list by the end of his career.
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Hlebagone

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Re: Messi

Post by Hlebagone on Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:48 am

General query: were defences packed in the same way in the 1980s. 10 men in the final third of the pitch seems to me to be a development that's occurred in the last 10 years, maybe less.
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Super Progress

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Re: Messi

Post by Super Progress on Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:52 am

Hlebagone wrote:General query: were defences packed in the same way in the 1980s. 10 men in the final third of the pitch seems to me to be a development that's occurred in the last 10 years, maybe less.
Ultra defensive football wasn't invented in the last 10 years. Remember also that football used to be much slower and that favoured the defensive teams. The 80's was generally a very defensive decade in football culminating with the 90WC which was so low scoring.
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Fade out

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Re: Messi

Post by Fade out on Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:56 am

A bit harsh to undermine Messi. I still hate the midget c**t.
But he's certainly the main playmaker + finisher for Barca.

Xavi is toothless against packed defenses because he's a deep midfielder.

Iniesta in advanced role scored clutch goals recently. But he usually is the finisher, not the instigator ala playmaker who opens up defenses.

Personally don't see either of these two being as good as Messi.

Even in El Clasico, the problem has always been Messi. If we stop Messi, we stop Farca. Simples Ale Biggrin

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Fade out

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Re: Messi

Post by Fade out on Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:59 am

And extremely true that you need 'killer' strikers like Eto'o, Villa even for likes of Messi to thrive. He might be a killer finisher himself, but when you put 2 or 3 players on him, it's going to be difficult for him to get clear cut chances for himself to score. When you see that pass to Iniesta, you know what's been missing!

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Re: Messi

Post by worms. on Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:00 pm

Super Winner wrote:
Hlebagone wrote:General query: were defences packed in the same way in the 1980s. 10 men in the final third of the pitch seems to me to be a development that's occurred in the last 10 years, maybe less.
Ultra defensive football wasn't invented in the last 10 years. Remember also that football used to be much slower and that favoured the defensive teams. The 80's was generally a very defensive decade in football culminating with the 90WC which was so low scoring.

Exactly,that's one of the reasons Italian teams dominated.The offside rule also changed after the 1990 World Cup to make it easier to score,that competition was the straw that broke the camels back,it forced Fifa to change the rules to make football more exciting.
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Super Progress

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Re: Messi

Post by Super Progress on Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:07 pm

R.I.P Football wrote:
Super Winner wrote:
Hlebagone wrote:General query: were defences packed in the same way in the 1980s. 10 men in the final third of the pitch seems to me to be a development that's occurred in the last 10 years, maybe less.
Ultra defensive football wasn't invented in the last 10 years. Remember also that football used to be much slower and that favoured the defensive teams. The 80's was generally a very defensive decade in football culminating with the 90WC which was so low scoring.

Exactly,that's one of the reasons Italian teams dominated.The offside rule also changed after the 1990 World Cup to make it easier to score,that competition was the straw that broke the camels back,it forced Fifa to change the rules to make football more exciting.
Yes and they did it again around 2002-2003 which again favoured offensive football.


Stop messing with a good thing FIFA! Grr
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fcb

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Re: Messi

Post by fcb on Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:26 pm

S4P wrote:Let's be fair for a moment. No one player is unstoppable. Even Ronaldinho was stopped by Boulharouz in the 06-07 games. In the 05-06 game, 1 magic moment at the Camp Nou (Messi was the star performer in the 1-2 at Stamford Bridge, so I disagree with the article above. Del Horno's red card was very soft, but Messi had been giving him the runaround before that). In the 04-05 games, Ronaldinho had another great moment this time at Stamford Bridge with his wonder goal. With his goals you can justify saying that Ronaldinho made more of a contribution to these games than Messi, but to say that Ronaldinho was the difference in these games was untrue.

I would argue that Barca miss Eto'o more than they miss Ronaldinho in these games. Could you imagine Eto'o missing some of the great chances that Alexis, Fabregas etc missed?

No one player is completely unstoppable. Would Pele, Maradonna, Cruyff etc be able to produce against teams that are as excellent in defence as the teams listed in the article and have the physical stamina to do it for 40-60 minutes with a player less?


Yes. He used to miss loads of easy chances. He wasn't exactly Van Nistelrooy or Inzaghi.
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fcb

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Re: Messi

Post by fcb on Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:29 pm

R.I.P Football wrote:
fcb wrote:I have 2 questions for those on the "Messi can't do it against organised defenses, therefore he's not great" bandwagon. Hopefully by answering these, you will realise the flaw in your argument.

I'll start with the first question - worms, as the key representative of that brigade on this board (though Super should obviously join in), you can answer:



Ronaldo and Ronaldinho aside, who are the players who you think compete with Messi for the title of greatest player of the last 20 years (to remove part of the era-comparison problem)?

Baggio,Romario,Brazilian Ronaldo,Ronaldinho,Rivaldo,Maldini,Nesta,Xavi,Pirlo,Totti,Figo.

I don't understand why you don't want me to mention Ronaldo and Ronaldinho.

Nothing against mentioning them, just that they had already been mentioned so I wanted to know the rest.

Ok, so now from the list above...how many of them played - almost every week - teams who put 10 men in their penalty box and didn't show any interest in attacking and scoring a goal. Teams who came in with a philosophy that a draw is a victory, even if they were playing at home?



(I notice that Hleb has already kind of raised my question...and you and Super have given a predictable generic response with no proof. Find me proof that every single week Baggio and Cassano and all your lovable 'more-of-a-genius-than-Messi' players had to play defenses like Messi faced against Chelsea in this tie. Even Ronaldinho didn't face such defensive teams when he was at Barça - most teams hadn't evolved to this level of tactical organisation and defensiveness yet, it was still a work in progress as everyone saw the template of Greece 2004 and started working from there.)


Last edited by fcb on Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:30 pm; edited 1 time in total

worms.

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Re: Messi

Post by worms. on Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:30 pm

fcb wrote:
S4P wrote:Let's be fair for a moment. No one player is unstoppable. Even Ronaldinho was stopped by Boulharouz in the 06-07 games. In the 05-06 game, 1 magic moment at the Camp Nou (Messi was the star performer in the 1-2 at Stamford Bridge, so I disagree with the article above. Del Horno's red card was very soft, but Messi had been giving him the runaround before that). In the 04-05 games, Ronaldinho had another great moment this time at Stamford Bridge with his wonder goal. With his goals you can justify saying that Ronaldinho made more of a contribution to these games than Messi, but to say that Ronaldinho was the difference in these games was untrue.

I would argue that Barca miss Eto'o more than they miss Ronaldinho in these games. Could you imagine Eto'o missing some of the great chances that Alexis, Fabregas etc missed?

No one player is completely unstoppable. Would Pele, Maradonna, Cruyff etc be able to produce against teams that are as excellent in defence as the teams listed in the article and have the physical stamina to do it for 40-60 minutes with a player less?


Yes. He used to miss loads of easy chances. He wasn't exactly Van Nistelrooy or Inzaghi.

That's true,you should know SP4 he fucked up a 1 vs 1 situation against yous in the 1st leg 3 years ago.
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Fade out

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Re: Messi

Post by Fade out on Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:34 pm

He misses chances, but he also makes up for it with his indomitable spirit, movement & will to score despite his misses.

worms.

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Registration date : 2011-12-07

Re: Messi

Post by worms. on Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:39 pm

fcb wrote:
R.I.P Football wrote:
fcb wrote:I have 2 questions for those on the "Messi can't do it against organised defenses, therefore he's not great" bandwagon. Hopefully by answering these, you will realise the flaw in your argument.

I'll start with the first question - worms, as the key representative of that brigade on this board (though Super should obviously join in), you can answer:



Ronaldo and Ronaldinho aside, who are the players who you think compete with Messi for the title of greatest player of the last 20 years (to remove part of the era-comparison problem)?

Baggio,Romario,Brazilian Ronaldo,Ronaldinho,Rivaldo,Maldini,Nesta,Xavi,Pirlo,Totti,Figo.

I don't understand why you don't want me to mention Ronaldo and Ronaldinho.

Nothing against mentioning them, just that they had already been mentioned so I wanted to know the rest.

Ok, so now from the list above...how many of them played - almost every week - teams who put 10 men in their penalty box and didn't show any interest in attacking and scoring a goal. Teams who came in with a philosophy that a draw is a victory, even if they were playing at home?



(I notice that Hleb has already kind of raised my question...and you and Super have given a predictable generic response with no proof. Find me proof that every single week Baggio and Cassano and all your lovable 'more-of-a-genius-than-Messi' players had to play defenses like Messi faced against Chelsea in this tie. Even Ronaldinho didn't face such defensive teams when he was at Barça - most teams hadn't evolved to this level of tactical organisation and defensiveness yet, it was still a work in progress as everyone saw the template of Greece 2004 and started working from there.)

You obviously didn't watch Italian football in the late 80's and 90's because some of those teams were much better at defending that this Chelsea team.

Teams put 10 men in their own penalty box nearly every week? That isn't true at all,that's just over exaggerated nonsense.I think the Levante game the other week is effecting your judgement,most teams in La Liga don't play like that against us at all,otherwise there's no way Messi would have scored 63 goals.

Here's an example,look at Rivaldo score 3 special goals against this strong Valencia team,look at all 3 of his goals,there is a packed defense in the way every time,I couldn't imagine Messi pulling off something as magical as Rivaldos head kick in the last minute:



By the way I think Messi is better than Rivaldo,but Rivaldo had more dimensions to his game and more tools to hurt teams.Hence why Messi relatively struggles in certain circumstances.
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fcb

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Re: Messi

Post by fcb on Wed Apr 25, 2012 1:31 pm

R.I.P Football wrote:You obviously didn't watch Italian football in the late 80's and 90's...

And you did?

worms.

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Re: Messi

Post by worms. on Wed Apr 25, 2012 1:37 pm

fcb wrote:
R.I.P Football wrote:You obviously didn't watch Italian football in the late 80's and 90's...

And you did?

In the 90's yes,I like the way you conveniently ignored the rest of my post.
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Jaime

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Re: Messi

Post by Jaime on Wed Apr 25, 2012 1:44 pm

Hlebagone wrote:General query: were defences packed in the same way in the 1980s. 10 men in the final third of the pitch seems to me to be a development that's occurred in the last 10 years, maybe less.

No it existed...I think the term catenaccio was coined even going back to the 60s. And on top of that violent play was much more accepted. If you go back and watch, for example, Cameroon-Argentina from the 1990 World Cup and see the fouls that were committed on Maradona, by today's standards Cameroon would have finished with like 3 players. As it was I think they had 2 or 3 players sent off. As Super said, that tournament was sort of the culmination of the 80s defensive work.
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TITO

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Re: Messi

Post by TITO on Wed Apr 25, 2012 3:49 pm

Couple of things i want to mention.
Everybody who's not over 30 years old, have NO right to comment of how the football was played in the 80's or early 90's, especially after watching some Youtube games or compilations of games and moments because they know shit about football in those times.
How the fuck do you know how did Maradona played week in and week out in the 80's to judge about his abilities when you didn't watched him play?
Judgments are based on a real time observation of a certain game, player and not after watching a replay and trying to figure it out all the good and the bad things on that specific game or a player. You are fucking judging Messi week in week out on how he performed. You could do fuck that back in the 80's or early 90's.
Nobody on this forum is saying that Messi is the best ever, but among the best ever and if he continue to give what he gave until now for his club and his country he might be then considered as the best ever and maybe some beautiful day star in a movie where he will score a much needed goal more than Pele have scored.
People still dont realize that they have the privilege to witness him playing every single week and see what he is capable of. I had the privilege to watch (on TV of course) Maradona, Platini, Van Basten, Gullit, Boniek, Baggio, Laudrup (both), Schuster, Milla (yes, him - on WC), Sanchez, Tigana, Rossi, Lineker, Baresi, Careca, Rummenigge, Zico, Voeller and so on and so on... but never Pele cause i was probably still swimming in my father's balls. The majority of fans here are in the early 20's and in the late 20's. It would be the same as my older son try to explain after 20 years from now what he thinks of how Messi played during his time. He knows shit about football and he is 7 and have opportunities to watch football that we never had in those times.
So, i will gladly ask some posters here to write about what they actually know and not about what they think the know. It will make my day.
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S4P

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Re: Messi

Post by S4P on Wed Apr 25, 2012 4:41 pm

R.I.P Football wrote:
S4P wrote:Let's be fair for a moment. No one player is unstoppable. Even Ronaldinho was stopped by Boulharouz in the 06-07 games. In the 05-06 game, 1 magic moment at the Camp Nou (Messi was the star performer in the 1-2 at Stamford Bridge, so I disagree with the article above. Del Horno's red card was very soft, but Messi had been giving him the runaround before that). In the 04-05 games, Ronaldinho had another great moment this time at Stamford Bridge with his wonder goal. With his goals you can justify saying that Ronaldinho made more of a contribution to these games than Messi, but to say that Ronaldinho was the difference in these games was untrue.

I would argue that Barca miss Eto'o more than they miss Ronaldinho in these games. Could you imagine Eto'o missing some of the great chances that Alexis, Fabregas etc missed?

No one player is completely unstoppable. Would Pele, Maradonna, Cruyff etc be able to produce against teams that are as excellent in defence as the teams listed in the article and have the physical stamina to do it for 40-60 minutes with a player less?

Maradona did.In Serie A when there was great defenses and he played for a much worse team than Messi.Also for Argentina he carried the team on his own.

There's no doubt in my mind that Maradona was better at creating chances against these packed defenses and was much stronger at holding off defenders,but Messis only 24 and he has shown glimpses of doing it,he definitely has the potential.

I'm sorry worms, I didn't realise you used to watch Napoli during the 80s.

And don't talk wet about Argentina in the 80s/early 90s. He was their star player, but he certainly didn't carry them to back-to-back finals, like a lot of people who didn't watch football at that time suggest. Valdano also scored 4 goals for them in the '86 WC, while he (Maradonna) didn't - to my knowledge - score a single goal during the 1990 World Cup.

Saying Maradonna carried Argentina during that period would be like a person born today saying 20 years from now that Messi carried this current Barcelona team. You and I both know that isn't true, despite his incredible goal tally.

As for kas's post about Eto'o - he may have wasted a few chances, but the fact he scored 30 goals a season in an inferior Barcelona team suggests that he wasn't that wasteful in front of goal.
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Forza Italia!Forza Milan!

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Re: Messi

Post by Forza Italia!Forza Milan! on Wed Apr 25, 2012 4:45 pm

Jaime <3s Ramires+Torres wrote:
Hlebagone wrote:General query: were defences packed in the same way in the 1980s. 10 men in the final third of the pitch seems to me to be a development that's occurred in the last 10 years, maybe less.

No it existed...I think the term catenaccio was coined even going back to the 60s. And on top of that violent play was much more accepted. If you go back and watch, for example, Cameroon-Argentina from the 1990 World Cup and see the fouls that were committed on Maradona, by today's standards Cameroon would have finished with like 3 players. As it was I think they had 2 or 3 players sent off. As Super said, that tournament was sort of the culmination of the 80s defensive work.

Yes, Herrera's Inter were the embodiment of it. But Nereo Rocco was the first to use it in Italy--a decade earlier. Keep in mind though guys that Herrera always emphasized the role of the fullbacks, the surging fullbacks, so it wasn't all dour and defensive.


@s4p

People think that Napoli side Maradona played for was bad. It wasn't! It had Careca, De Napoli, Ferrara etc. It was a result of very careful planning.


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Jaime

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Re: Messi

Post by Jaime on Wed Apr 25, 2012 4:54 pm

S4P wrote:
R.I.P Football wrote:
S4P wrote:Let's be fair for a moment. No one player is unstoppable. Even Ronaldinho was stopped by Boulharouz in the 06-07 games. In the 05-06 game, 1 magic moment at the Camp Nou (Messi was the star performer in the 1-2 at Stamford Bridge, so I disagree with the article above. Del Horno's red card was very soft, but Messi had been giving him the runaround before that). In the 04-05 games, Ronaldinho had another great moment this time at Stamford Bridge with his wonder goal. With his goals you can justify saying that Ronaldinho made more of a contribution to these games than Messi, but to say that Ronaldinho was the difference in these games was untrue.

I would argue that Barca miss Eto'o more than they miss Ronaldinho in these games. Could you imagine Eto'o missing some of the great chances that Alexis, Fabregas etc missed?

No one player is completely unstoppable. Would Pele, Maradonna, Cruyff etc be able to produce against teams that are as excellent in defence as the teams listed in the article and have the physical stamina to do it for 40-60 minutes with a player less?

Maradona did.In Serie A when there was great defenses and he played for a much worse team than Messi.Also for Argentina he carried the team on his own.

There's no doubt in my mind that Maradona was better at creating chances against these packed defenses and was much stronger at holding off defenders,but Messis only 24 and he has shown glimpses of doing it,he definitely has the potential.

I'm sorry worms, I didn't realise you used to watch Napoli during the 80s.

And don't talk wet about Argentina in the 80s/early 90s. He was their star player, but he certainly didn't carry them to back-to-back finals, like a lot of people who didn't watch football at that time suggest. Valdano also scored 4 goals for them in the '86 WC, while he (Maradonna) didn't - to my knowledge - score a single goal during the 1990 World Cup.

Saying Maradonna carried Argentina during that period would be like a person born today saying 20 years from now that Messi carried this current Barcelona team. You and I both know that isn't true, despite his incredible goal tally.

As for kas's post about Eto'o - he may have wasted a few chances, but the fact he scored 30 goals a season in an inferior Barcelona team suggests that he wasn't that wasteful in front of goal.

I would say that Maradona did carry Argentina to the 1986 WC. Valdano was a good striker but not a great one. Burruchaga was a good midfielder but not a great one. That was the first world cup I watched and in truth I was just a kid but I've gone back to watch a lot of those games (good old VHS!) that my father recorded and it was really Maradona's tournament. And don't forget that Argentina barely even qualified for the tournament in the first place!

As for 1990 Maradona was poor. Apart from a great second half against Brasil in the 1/8 finals he did almost nothing. Argentina got to the final by luck. Literally. Maradona saved a goal with his hand against the Soviet Union or Romania I can't remember which now. Brasil must have hit the woodwork like about 5-6 times in the game but just could not score and in the end Maradona went on a brilliant run to slip a pass to Caniggia for the winner. Then in the quarters and semis they beat Yugoslavia and then Italy on penalties without creating hardly a single chance. Yugoslavia was even down to 10 men and they were bossing that game. They were also unlucky, with several posts. If there was a player that carried Argentina to the final in 1990 it was the goalkeeper Goycochea.
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Jaime

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Re: Messi

Post by Jaime on Wed Apr 25, 2012 5:19 pm

Forza Italia!Forza Milan! wrote:
Jaime <3s Ramires+Torres wrote:
Hlebagone wrote:General query: were defences packed in the same way in the 1980s. 10 men in the final third of the pitch seems to me to be a development that's occurred in the last 10 years, maybe less.

No it existed...I think the term catenaccio was coined even going back to the 60s. And on top of that violent play was much more accepted. If you go back and watch, for example, Cameroon-Argentina from the 1990 World Cup and see the fouls that were committed on Maradona, by today's standards Cameroon would have finished with like 3 players. As it was I think they had 2 or 3 players sent off. As Super said, that tournament was sort of the culmination of the 80s defensive work.

Yes, Herrera's Inter were the embodiment of it. But Nereo Rocco was the first to use it in Italy--a decade earlier. Keep in mind though guys that Herrera always emphasized the role of the fullbacks, the surging fullbacks, so it wasn't all dour and defensive.

All true, I was just trying point out that resolute defending hasn't just been invented by Mourinho, Benitez, etc. in the last decade.


@s4p

People think that Napoli side Maradona played for was bad. It wasn't! It had Careca, De Napoli, Ferrara etc. It was a result of very careful planning.



Also, on this point. When Maradona first arrived, Napoli had just finished 11th and before the likes of Careca or De Napoli arrived (Ferrara was just a kid) he had taken the team to 8th and then 3rd and then made them champions. The title they won in 1989-90 was a team (which I remember) with a lot of big names: Careca, Carnevale, Alemao, Crippa, De Napoli etc. But the first one in 1986-87 was mostly Maradona from what I understand. I know they had Bagni who was supposed to be pretty good but I don't remember him.
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Forza Italia!Forza Milan!

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Re: Messi

Post by Forza Italia!Forza Milan! on Wed Apr 25, 2012 5:29 pm

Jaime <3s Ramires+Torres wrote:

All true, I was just trying point out that resolute defending hasn't just been invented by Mourinho, Benitez, etc. in the last decade.






ok

Jaime <3s Ramires+Torres wrote:

Also, on this point. When Maradona first arrived, Napoli had just finished 11th and before the likes of Careca or De Napoli arrived (Ferrara was just a kid) he had taken the team to 8th and then 3rd and then made them champions. The title they won in 1989-90 was a team (which I remember) with a lot of big names: Careca, Carnevale, Alemao, Crippa, De Napoli etc. But the first one in 1986-87 was mostly Maradona from what I understand. I know they had Bagni who was supposed to be pretty good but I don't remember him.

In the 86-7 season Carnevale and De Napoli contributed immensely. Ferrara was 20 at the time, but I believe he started a majority of their games. Without a doubt Maradona was huge though during that season...
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Calidad

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Re: Messi

Post by Calidad on Wed Apr 25, 2012 5:39 pm

Messi is under huge scrutiny every single game. So his "average" games are picked apart. Who here saw every single one of Maradona's or Pele's games? I haven't, in fact I've hardly seen any. But I'm sure they were not imperious game in game out. Messi almost is, and even yesterday he created a goal, and created 4/5 good chances over the course of the tie.

What other player is consitently as productive as him? Only Ronaldo, and I begrudge anyone with the opinion who think's is a better all round player than Messi.
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S4P

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Re: Messi

Post by S4P on Wed Apr 25, 2012 6:11 pm

Calidad wrote:Messi is under huge scrutiny every single game. So his "average" games are picked apart.

ok

Messi didn't play poorly in either game, but because he wasn't at his exceptional best (when many people expected him to be the major difference between the 2 sides), his performance gets picked apart by some.

I also think that not enough attention is paid to players previous history with other players/teams. You saw Fabregas and Lampard kicking each other in the 2nd half (that rivalry goes back to the 2007 Carling Cup final). Messi hadn't scored against us (and Cech in particular) in 7 games when he stepped up for that penalty. I'd be amazed if that wasn't playing on his mind. That could also be why he tried to place his penalty high (doesn't he usually place them in the corner?). Surely he would have known that Cech isn't the best at saving penalties that go low and towards the corners, despite his long reach.

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The Easter Bunny

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Re: Messi

Post by The Easter Bunny on Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:58 pm

TITO wrote:Couple of things i want to mention.
Everybody who's not over 30 years old, have NO right to comment of how the football was played in the 80's or early 90's, especially after watching some Youtube games or compilations of games and moments because they know shit about football in those times.
How the fuck do you know how did Maradona played week in and week out in the 80's to judge about his abilities when you didn't watched him play?
Judgments are based on a real time observation of a certain game, player and not after watching a replay and trying to figure it out all the good and the bad things on that specific game or a player. You are fucking judging Messi week in week out on how he performed. You could do fuck that back in the 80's or early 90's.
Nobody on this forum is saying that Messi is the best ever, but among the best ever and if he continue to give what he gave until now for his club and his country he might be then considered as the best ever and maybe some beautiful day star in a movie where he will score a much needed goal more than Pele have scored.
People still dont realize that they have the privilege to witness him playing every single week and see what he is capable of. I had the privilege to watch (on TV of course) Maradona, Platini, Van Basten, Gullit, Boniek, Baggio, Laudrup (both), Schuster, Milla (yes, him - on WC), Sanchez, Tigana, Rossi, Lineker, Baresi, Careca, Rummenigge, Zico, Voeller and so on and so on... but never Pele cause i was probably still swimming in my father's balls. The majority of fans here are in the early 20's and in the late 20's. It would be the same as my older son try to explain after 20 years from now what he thinks of how Messi played during his time. He knows shit about football and he is 7 and have opportunities to watch football that we never had in those times.
So, i will gladly ask some posters here to write about what they actually know and not about what they think the know. It will make my day.

Worms, I think this might just be directed at you.

Edit: But I agree, we should be privileged we are living in the era of Ronaldo and Messi, these guys are breaking records left, right and centre and you get people criticising them for their lack of team work or by having an average game. We should be rejoicing that two massive players are near the peak of their powers.

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Re: Messi

Post by worms. on Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:16 am

The Easter Bunny wrote:
TITO wrote:Couple of things i want to mention.
Everybody who's not over 30 years old, have NO right to comment of how the football was played in the 80's or early 90's, especially after watching some Youtube games or compilations of games and moments because they know shit about football in those times.
How the fuck do you know how did Maradona played week in and week out in the 80's to judge about his abilities when you didn't watched him play?
Judgments are based on a real time observation of a certain game, player and not after watching a replay and trying to figure it out all the good and the bad things on that specific game or a player. You are fucking judging Messi week in week out on how he performed. You could do fuck that back in the 80's or early 90's.
Nobody on this forum is saying that Messi is the best ever, but among the best ever and if he continue to give what he gave until now for his club and his country he might be then considered as the best ever and maybe some beautiful day star in a movie where he will score a much needed goal more than Pele have scored.
People still dont realize that they have the privilege to witness him playing every single week and see what he is capable of. I had the privilege to watch (on TV of course) Maradona, Platini, Van Basten, Gullit, Boniek, Baggio, Laudrup (both), Schuster, Milla (yes, him - on WC), Sanchez, Tigana, Rossi, Lineker, Baresi, Careca, Rummenigge, Zico, Voeller and so on and so on... but never Pele cause i was probably still swimming in my father's balls. The majority of fans here are in the early 20's and in the late 20's. It would be the same as my older son try to explain after 20 years from now what he thinks of how Messi played during his time. He knows shit about football and he is 7 and have opportunities to watch football that we never had in those times.
So, i will gladly ask some posters here to write about what they actually know and not about what they think the know. It will make my day.

Worms, I think this might just be directed at you.

Edit: But I agree, we should be privileged we are living in the era of Ronaldo and Messi, these guys are breaking records left, right and centre and you get people criticising them for their lack of team work or by having an average game. We should be rejoicing that two massive players are near the peak of their powers.

What?

I am not giving my age away but I assure you I watched Serie A for most of the 90's.
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The Chosen Glenn

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Re: Messi

Post by The Chosen Glenn on Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:17 am

TITO wrote:Couple of things i want to mention.
Everybody who's not over 30 years old, have NO right to comment of how the football was played in the 80's or early 90's, especially after watching some Youtube games or compilations of games and moments because they know shit about football in those times.
How the fuck do you know how did Maradona played week in and week out in the 80's to judge about his abilities when you didn't watched him play?
Judgments are based on a real time observation of a certain game, player and not after watching a replay and trying to figure it out all the good and the bad things on that specific game or a player. You are fucking judging Messi week in week out on how he performed. You could do fuck that back in the 80's or early 90's.
Nobody on this forum is saying that Messi is the best ever, but among the best ever and if he continue to give what he gave until now for his club and his country he might be then considered as the best ever and maybe some beautiful day star in a movie where he will score a much needed goal more than Pele have scored.
People still dont realize that they have the privilege to witness him playing every single week and see what he is capable of. I had the privilege to watch (on TV of course) Maradona, Platini, Van Basten, Gullit, Boniek, Baggio, Laudrup (both), Schuster, Milla (yes, him - on WC), Sanchez, Tigana, Rossi, Lineker, Baresi, Careca, Rummenigge, Zico, Voeller and so on and so on... but never Pele cause i was probably still swimming in my father's balls. The majority of fans here are in the early 20's and in the late 20's. It would be the same as my older son try to explain after 20 years from now what he thinks of how Messi played during his time. He knows shit about football and he is 7 and have opportunities to watch football that we never had in those times.
So, i will gladly ask some posters here to write about what they actually know and not about what they think the know. It will make my day.

Ale

I've been lucky enough to meet several ex-players and coaches who played with or against Messi or Maradona, whose opinions I value so much more than internet hooligans like S4P and Sheffield Gunnar, and the jury is still out. Judging any current player on a week-by-week basis against the highlights reel of a player from a different era is not just ridiculous, it is a crime on par with killing a swan.

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