EURO 2012 Group D

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Isco Benny

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Re: EURO 2012 Group D

Post by Isco Benny on Mon Jun 11, 2012 12:58 pm

Steven Gerrard highlights the pragmatic mood surrounding this game:

"It is important we don't get carried away if we win & don't commit suicide if we lose," said Gerrard

Sense Ale
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messiah

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Re: EURO 2012 Group D

Post by messiah on Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:00 pm

when did a mere good passer become so important for england. I rate wilshere just asking
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Fade out

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Re: EURO 2012 Group D

Post by Fade out on Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:01 pm

Mexes said to start.

Let the slaughter begin. lol!

Brian2468

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Re: EURO 2012 Group D

Post by Brian2468 on Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:11 pm

Thats right get all our excuses in for the johnny foreigners :pirate
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debaser

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Re: EURO 2012 Group D

Post by debaser on Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:13 pm

Disco Benny wrote:Whilst I much prefer the situation where we can watch England without any particularly burdening expectations, the ABE's (Anyone But England - namely the rest of UK, most of Europe and Peru) will still find a reason to belittle the English stance, whether we're hyping up or downplaying our chances. It's already been evident on websites, phone lines and IN REAL LIFE: the Scots at my work are criticising England for displaying (realistic) pessimism. It's a catch 22.

It's almost as if they don't like us whatever we do Sad
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Romford Pele

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Re: EURO 2012 Group D

Post by Romford Pele on Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:13 pm

Welbeck could have a field day against Mexes tonight. If this was Kos on the other hand...
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Re: EURO 2012 Group D

Post by  on Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:16 pm

Kroos wrote:

LOL i know that i suck in english, BUT the feck


actually, you don't, kroos

in fact, you are one of the few people on the europeanboard, who genuinely benefited from posting here

your English has improved MASSIVELY over the years

Ale

you also did not let silly remarks about your English (a few years back) drive you away

ie

you are either remarkably ballsy or insensitive

either way

KUDOS

<Ale> Biggrin

I get the impression, that if you had been a player for Bayern in the CL final, you would AT LEAST have TAKEN a penalty

some posters on here, CERTAINLY, would NOT

Whistle

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Romford Pele

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Re: EURO 2012 Group D

Post by Romford Pele on Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:17 pm

Rumours are that Ox is starting tonight. Hope it's on the left ok
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debaser

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Re: EURO 2012 Group D

Post by debaser on Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:22 pm

There are 2/3 spots in the team that aren't clear. Ox would be a surprise, but none of Downing/Milner/Walcott nailed on:

Hart
Johnson-Terry-Lescott-Cole
Walcott/Milner?-Parker-Gerrard-Downing/Ox?
Young
Welbeck/Carroll

Be surprised if he started Ox and Walcott, so if it is Ox, I'm thinking Milner on right (better protection for Johnson vs Ribery)..

Most people seem to think Welbeck going to start, but Hodgson could go either way there..
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Romford Pele

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Re: EURO 2012 Group D

Post by Romford Pele on Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:25 pm

I think Welbeck is a given to start. We'll be defending for most of it so a good option to have on the break.

Ox on the left, Milner on the right is a nice balance - can change it up later Ale
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Isco Benny

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Re: EURO 2012 Group D

Post by Isco Benny on Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:26 pm

wrote:
Kroos wrote:

LOL i know that i suck in english, BUT the feck


actually, you don't, kroos

in fact, you are one of the few people on the europeanboard, who genuinely benefited from posting here

your English has improved MASSIVELY over the years

Ale

you also did not let silly remarks about your English (a few years back) drive you away

ie

you are either remarkably ballsy or insensitive

either way

KUDOS

<Ale> Biggrin

I get the impression, that if you had been a player for Bayern in the CL final, you would AT LEAST have TAKEN a penalty

some posters on here, CERTAINLY, would NOT

Whistle


Ale Laughing

He won't thank me for this, but Kroos wins the "Frank Lampard" award for most improved poster on here. Aside from improvement in his English, his contributions have continually evolved, from the basic-but-necessary Wind Ups aimed at the Englanders during the height of English hype along with the persistent Fellatio of all players German to genuinely insightful and often inescapably amusing comments (the best being "Without Germany, Spain would be bankrupt" retort when Madrid were playing Bayern). In contrast to other ABE's, he's not still recycling the same material circa 2006 Ale
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Rosicky

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Re: EURO 2012 Group D

Post by Rosicky on Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:28 pm

No way should the Ox be starting.
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Rosicky

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Re: EURO 2012 Group D

Post by Rosicky on Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:31 pm

Supposed Ingerlund team:

Hart; Johnson, Terry, Lescott, Cole; Milner, Gerrard, Parker, Oxlade-Chamberlain; Young; Welbeck.
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Isco Benny

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Re: EURO 2012 Group D

Post by Isco Benny on Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:34 pm

Romford Pele wrote:I think Welbeck is a given to start. We'll be defending for most of it so a good option to have on the break.

Ox on the left, Milner on the right is a nice balance - can change it up later Ale

Pretty sure Hodge will go for a fully pragmatic Downing/Milner widemen combo.

I'd like to see one of Walcott or Ox so we have some attacking threat down the wings on the counter, but can't see it happening given Woy will be concerned about the France's quality on the wings.

The best thing England can hope for is the France underestimate us. And if there is one nation's sportsmen that can be guilty of occasionally approaching games with a casual attitude, it's the French.

worms.

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Re: EURO 2012 Group D

Post by worms. on Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:43 pm

Am I the only one who thinks Oxygen Chamber is severely overrated? Honestly apart from one decent cameo against Man United he hasn't impressed me at all,me thinks a lot of it is hype with the media searching for the next big thing now that Wilshere isn't playing.
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Fade out

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Re: EURO 2012 Group D

Post by Fade out on Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:46 pm

Even Wilshere is overrated, isn't that a more potent point, Saints? As a matter of fact, I'd agree with you. Ox being judged for doing well against Rafael, Mesbah.. Laughing

Walchart OTOH could win Euros for England. True story. Hope Woy implements the Kasparov Russian Black Queen bishop diagonal maneuver as I had put it.
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Romford Pele

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Re: EURO 2012 Group D

Post by Romford Pele on Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:56 pm

No Bernd, many reports are saying that Ox is starting. I don't see why not either. We need a threat on a break and he's already miles better than Downing. I'm wary that I may be setting him up for a fall but unlike many before him, the guy doesn't shit his pants in pressure scenarios. Good option IMO. Milner can help balance it out on the other side.
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bluenine

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Re: EURO 2012 Group D

Post by bluenine on Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:57 pm

Super defensive wrote:
Disco Benny wrote:
bluenine wrote:
Disco Benny wrote:I've enjoyed England being unbeaten so far in the tournament. Shame about the upcoming kick off tonight.

Not expecting much. Even with a fully fit team the French would probably be too strong. Without Wilshere, Rooney, Cahill, on form Lampard I see it being 2 nil to the French.

Whilst losing would be a blow to group qualification chances, it wouldnt be terminal.as long as France beat Sweden and Ukraine. From there its whoever picks up most points in their other 2 games, which England are capable of doing.

To be fair, apart from Rooney, England don't really miss the other three. Lampard & Gerrard together just don't work, Cahill & Wilshere are probably not even starters for England when fit. (I know people here rate Wilshere very highly, but he has got just 5 England caps... How can you miss him so much when he has hardly played for you?).

Rooney is a big, big miss. Specially coz I don't rate Welbeck as much as most people here. IMO Carroll should start over him, with 2 proper wingers, including Ox - who is an awesome talent.

And don't worry, the French are very over rated here - mostly due to their unbeaten run... but they have got a very young squad, have little experience. England can beat them.

Cahill would have started for England - a back 3 of Cole, Terry and Cahill carried over from Chelsea would have been extremely useful. Granted, Chelsea rode their luck at times with opposition missing chances on their way to the CL final, but generally that unit has been very solid this season.

Wilshere is a true ball retainer, something we all know is lacking in the English midfield. I'm sure if he hadn't got injured he would be starting for England this summer, and making a big difference given the games he played in for England he was the fulcrum of the English midfield. A Pirlo-type deep lying playmaker if you will. I could see Woy playing him alongside Gerrard.

For me Wilshere is without a doubt the biggest miss for England. They don't have anybody with the qualities he has. He is a good passer but also confident receiving the ball even in tough situations. But added to that he surprisingly good defensive and a real fighter too.

It's a real shame he didn't make it the squad. I'm quite hopeful for England after this cup with the players they have coming up. It seems like a much more balanced side and with players that have less hype around them. I gues we really see that side in 2014. First time since 2002 that an England has had any real interest to me.

I want France to go far but I want England in this as well so I don't know who to cheer for really.

Come on guys, it's Wilshere, not Maradona. He is not really a "big" miss. I guess its very human to miss an injured player in an exaggerated manner. Remember the Barry hype 2 years ago? Another more fitting example 2 years ago was Ranocchia. I remember most of us were convinced that had Ranocchia been fit, Italy's defense would have looked a level better. Thats coz Ranocchia at that time looked like a young Nesta, it was the "potential" we missed, forgetting that Ranocchia had little international experience. Now 2 years later, Ranocchia is fit, playing for a big club, and not even good enough to make into what clearly is the worst Italian defense in decades.

You really miss the potential and the idea of Wilshere, not the 5 times capped player himself. You never know, 2 years later in Brasil, you might have Wilshere fit and warming the bench.

I personally think the only "big" misses are players who are either world class or have played a key role in the team for a while. For England, such key players are probably Rooney, Terry, Cole, and maybe Hart. So Rooney is a big miss. For Spain, Villa is a key miss. Wilshere??

worms.

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Re: EURO 2012 Group D

Post by worms. on Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:58 pm

Disco Benny wrote:
wrote:
Kroos wrote:

LOL i know that i suck in english, BUT the feck


actually, you don't, kroos

in fact, you are one of the few people on the europeanboard, who genuinely benefited from posting here

your English has improved MASSIVELY over the years

Ale

you also did not let silly remarks about your English (a few years back) drive you away

ie

you are either remarkably ballsy or insensitive

either way

KUDOS

<Ale> Biggrin

I get the impression, that if you had been a player for Bayern in the CL final, you would AT LEAST have TAKEN a penalty

some posters on here, CERTAINLY, would NOT

Whistle


Ale Laughing

He won't thank me for this, but Kroos wins the "Frank Lampard" award for most improved poster on here. Aside from improvement in his English, his contributions have continually evolved, from the basic-but-necessary Wind Ups aimed at the Englanders during the height of English hype along with the persistent Fellatio of all players German to genuinely insightful and often inescapably amusing comments (the best being "Without Germany, Spain would be bankrupt" retort when Madrid were playing Bayern). In contrast to other ABE's, he's not still recycling the same material circa 2006 Ale

Actually,it was when we(Athletic) were playing Shalke. <Ale>
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Axeslammer

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Re: EURO 2012 Group D

Post by Axeslammer on Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:00 pm

"When we(England) were fighting against us(France), I(Napoleon) thought I(Wellington) was positioning our (German + Dutch) troops excellently."

(c) the World according to Worms
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Hlebagone

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Re: EURO 2012 Group D

Post by Hlebagone on Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:01 pm

Given the option between having this season Terry's in the starting XI and Wilshere in the starting XI, its not even a contest.

On footballing reasons alone, Terry has been average this season, and we have competent defenders to take his place. The same cannot be said of the midfielders in Wilshere's position. Regardless of potential, Wilshere's performances in central midfield were the best I've seen from an England player in the past 10 years, Scholes excluded.

Balotelli only has 9 caps for Italy, yet he's your starting striker, and clearly a fundamental part of your plans. The number of caps is a poor argument to use - even the best players start off with a low amount of caps.

With regards to how much we miss him, maybe not that much. We'd still have a low amount of possession, and be a relatively poor team, but he would clearly strengthen the team considerable.


Last edited by Hlebagone on Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Isco Benny

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Re: EURO 2012 Group D

Post by Isco Benny on Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:02 pm

Justice for Goldado wrote:Am I the only one who thinks Oxygen Chamber is severely overrated? Honestly apart from one decent cameo against Man United he hasn't impressed me at all,me thinks a lot of it is hype with the media searching for the next big thing now that Wilshere isn't playing.

I'm not sure when being picked over Stuart Downing meant a player had become severely overrated.

I could understand it if he was being picked to play over Lionel Messi, but given the options to play on the left, he's clearly a far better prospect than Downing both short and long term, so why not bed him in this tournament and see what he can do?

Given the pragmatism of the rest of the midfield, it makes sense to have a bit of an unknown quantity in there IMO. We'll see pretty quickly if it's come too early for him, but I like Woy for taking a little risk here. Shows he has some balls despite all the pragmatism up to this point

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Kroos

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Re: EURO 2012 Group D

Post by Kroos on Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:04 pm

Disco Benny wrote:
wrote:
Kroos wrote:

LOL i know that i suck in english, BUT the feck


actually, you don't, kroos

in fact, you are one of the few people on the europeanboard, who genuinely benefited from posting here

your English has improved MASSIVELY over the years

Ale

you also did not let silly remarks about your English (a few years back) drive you away

ie

you are either remarkably ballsy or insensitive

either way

KUDOS

<Ale> Biggrin

I get the impression, that if you had been a player for Bayern in the CL final, you would AT LEAST have TAKEN a penalty

some posters on here, CERTAINLY, would NOT

Whistle


Ale Laughing

He won't thank me for this, but Kroos wins the "Frank Lampard" award for most improved poster on here. Aside from improvement in his English, his contributions have continually evolved, from the basic-but-necessary Wind Ups aimed at the Englanders during the height of English hype along with the persistent Fellatio of all players German to genuinely insightful and often inescapably amusing comments (the best being "Without Germany, Spain would be bankrupt" retort when Madrid were playing Bayern). In contrast to other ABE's, he's not still recycling the same material circa 2006 Ale

oh, some lovely words from noah and otto Embarassed


indeed, i`ve really grown up, coincident with my posts on here, when i search some stuff from the old board, or early posts from 2006 OMG embarrassing (not just my english)


oh yeah, and i would have taken a pen Laughing


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Romford Pele

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Re: EURO 2012 Group D

Post by Romford Pele on Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:05 pm

Bluey, I may be accused of hype or whatever, but Wilshere is already better than any other option in the Enlgand midfield. He'd start without a doubt.
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Isco Benny

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Re: EURO 2012 Group D

Post by Isco Benny on Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:15 pm

bluenine wrote:
Super defensive wrote:
Disco Benny wrote:
bluenine wrote:
Disco Benny wrote:I've enjoyed England being unbeaten so far in the tournament. Shame about the upcoming kick off tonight.

Not expecting much. Even with a fully fit team the French would probably be too strong. Without Wilshere, Rooney, Cahill, on form Lampard I see it being 2 nil to the French.

Whilst losing would be a blow to group qualification chances, it wouldnt be terminal.as long as France beat Sweden and Ukraine. From there its whoever picks up most points in their other 2 games, which England are capable of doing.

To be fair, apart from Rooney, England don't really miss the other three. Lampard & Gerrard together just don't work, Cahill & Wilshere are probably not even starters for England when fit. (I know people here rate Wilshere very highly, but he has got just 5 England caps... How can you miss him so much when he has hardly played for you?).

Rooney is a big, big miss. Specially coz I don't rate Welbeck as much as most people here. IMO Carroll should start over him, with 2 proper wingers, including Ox - who is an awesome talent.

And don't worry, the French are very over rated here - mostly due to their unbeaten run... but they have got a very young squad, have little experience. England can beat them.

Cahill would have started for England - a back 3 of Cole, Terry and Cahill carried over from Chelsea would have been extremely useful. Granted, Chelsea rode their luck at times with opposition missing chances on their way to the CL final, but generally that unit has been very solid this season.

Wilshere is a true ball retainer, something we all know is lacking in the English midfield. I'm sure if he hadn't got injured he would be starting for England this summer, and making a big difference given the games he played in for England he was the fulcrum of the English midfield. A Pirlo-type deep lying playmaker if you will. I could see Woy playing him alongside Gerrard.

For me Wilshere is without a doubt the biggest miss for England. They don't have anybody with the qualities he has. He is a good passer but also confident receiving the ball even in tough situations. But added to that he surprisingly good defensive and a real fighter too.

It's a real shame he didn't make it the squad. I'm quite hopeful for England after this cup with the players they have coming up. It seems like a much more balanced side and with players that have less hype around them. I gues we really see that side in 2014. First time since 2002 that an England has had any real interest to me.

I want France to go far but I want England in this as well so I don't know who to cheer for really.

Come on guys, it's Wilshere, not Maradona. He is not really a "big" miss. I guess its very human to miss an injured player in an exaggerated manner. Remember the Barry hype 2 years ago? Another more fitting example 2 years ago was Ranocchia. I remember most of us were convinced that had Ranocchia been fit, Italy's defense would have looked a level better. Thats coz Ranocchia at that time looked like a young Nesta, it was the "potential" we missed, forgetting that Ranocchia had little international experience. Now 2 years later, Ranocchia is fit, playing for a big club, and not even good enough to make into what clearly is the worst Italian defense in decades.

You really miss the potential and the idea of Wilshere, not the 5 times capped player himself. You never know, 2 years later in Brasil, you might have Wilshere fit and warming the bench.

I personally think the only "big" misses are players who are either world class or have played a key role in the team for a while. For England, such key players are probably Rooney, Terry, Cole, and maybe Hart. So Rooney is a big miss. For Spain, Villa is a key miss. Wilshere??

Forget how many caps he has, you only have to look at Germany in WC2010 or even Rooney Euro2004 / Michael Owen 98 that where you have a young and hungry talent you play them - particularly in a crucial area of the pitch like a ball playing CM which has long been an archilles heel for England since the likes of Gazza / Scholes retired.

Wilshere was a key part of Arsenal's team for the entirety of last season (and not just the two games against Barca), he's not a kid straight out of the academy FFS.

The simple question is - is he better suited for international football than England current crop of CM's? The simple answer is - yes. Hence his value to England. If England are to improve and progress, players like Wilshere are key.


Last edited by Disco Benny on Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Fade out

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Re: EURO 2012 Group D

Post by Fade out on Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:17 pm

Gazza / Scholes

lol!

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Re: EURO 2012 Group D

Post by Luis on Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:20 pm

Chamberlain is only in the team because of his impressive performance against AC Milan and Pirlo.
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Isco Benny

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Re: EURO 2012 Group D

Post by Isco Benny on Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:22 pm

Fade out wrote:Gazza / Scholes

lol!


Not sure what's so funny here.

England 98,02,04 all retained the ball in midfield better than the 06 and 10 teams because of Scholes.

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Kimbo

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Re: EURO 2012 Group D

Post by Kimbo on Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:24 pm

I don't think Wilshere would make much difference in the game against France, the English midfield will be technically much worse with or without him.
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bluenine

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Re: EURO 2012 Group D

Post by bluenine on Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:24 pm

Hlebagone wrote:Given the option between having this season Terry's in the starting XI and Wilshere in the starting XI, its not even a contest.

On footballing reasons alone, Terry has been average this season, and we have competent defenders to take his place. The same cannot be said of the midfielders in Wilshere's position. Regardless of potential, Wilshere's performances in central midfield were the best I've seen from an England player in the past 10 years, Scholes excluded.

Balotelli only has 9 caps for Italy, yet he's your starting striker, and clearly a fundamental part of your plans. The number of caps is a poor argument to use - even the best players start off with a low amount of caps.

With regards to how much we miss him, maybe not that much. We'd still have a low amount of possession, and be a relatively poor team, but he would clearly strengthen the team considerable.

Italy is a different case, almost the entire team is in transition and new. But I wouldn't call Balotelli a "big" miss if he were injured. Cassano, Pirlo, Buffon and perhaps Chiellini & De Rossi are Italy's key players and they would be big misses, not Balotelli.

Terry may have been average this season (and you can check my history of posts, I actually don't rate him highly), but he did have a hand in Chelsea's CL run and has the experience which England's defence needs, specially in the absence of Rio. So I guess our opinion differs on this, IMO England would miss Rooney, Terry, Cole, Hart - all these players more than they miss Wilshere. Specially considering Wilshere's lack of experience, and the relatively untested "concept" that he could actually help England. There is a difference between the "concept" and what happens in "reality", which is the point I am trying to make.


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