Serie A TIM 2012/13

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Tarun

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Re: Serie A TIM 2012/13

Post by Tarun on Tue Sep 11, 2012 8:03 pm

What more can be said about those farcical idiots at FIGC
http://football-italia.net/24918/criscito-investigation-shelved
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bluenine

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Re: Serie A TIM 2012/13

Post by bluenine on Wed Sep 12, 2012 6:53 am

abundance wrote:Yep.

Not sure about the over 230mil figure from a couple season ago... looks small to be gross and way to big to be net.

I did some research, and it was 150m net in 2009-10, and 141m net last season...

I am not sure why I had the 230m figure stuck in my head!
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Fey

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Re: Serie A TIM 2012/13

Post by Fey on Wed Sep 12, 2012 6:18 pm

Midget earns the most of the entire Serie A? That says a lot.

Behind Ligue 1 and the Russian League me thinks!
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Re: Serie A TIM 2012/13

Post by bluenine on Wed Sep 12, 2012 8:14 pm

Fey wrote:Midget earns the most of the entire Serie A? That says a lot.

Behind Ligue 1 and the Russian League me thinks!

Serie A has no PSG or Anzhi or Zenit, no doubt there. But thanks to the quality of home grown talent, and the great historic scouting network in South America, its still a quality league. It will take a few more years of decline before it goes below Russian or French leagues in quality.

Unfortunately, the decline in top teams is quite evident, specially in the city of Milan where the two clubs have apparently reduced their wages by over 100m in the last 6 months. Sure, Juve, Fiorentina and Roma strengthened, while Napoli & Inter did some good business. But for me, this summer was a confirmation of a few sad facts...

1. Serie A is not attractive to top players anymore. Juve's failure to sign RvP/Llorente/Berbatov is a good example. Italy's best club had to settle for Bendtner inspite of having money & intention to buy a top striker.

2. Serie A cannot keep hold of their stars. Ibra, Silva and Lavezzi. Those probably were among the best of foriegn talent in Serie A. The exodus of world class players continues.

3. Serie A cannot compete with the Top 3 leagues in wages. Milan cut 60m from their wage bill, Inter cut 41m. These figures are telling. Also, Udinese exchanged almost their entire first team for money.

The future of Serie A is has never been so heavily reliant on homegrown talent in my lifetime. You can take that as a positive or a negative, but the memories of the glorious 90s are long forgotten...
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Re: Serie A TIM 2012/13

Post by Kroos on Thu Sep 13, 2012 6:31 am

So you say that i was in right, and the complete italien fraction on here was wrong Wink
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Re: Serie A TIM 2012/13

Post by bluenine on Thu Sep 13, 2012 12:49 pm

Kroos wrote:So you say that i was in right, and the complete italien fraction on here was wrong Wink

You display wisdom far beyond your age <Ale>
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Forza Italia!Forza Milan!

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Re: Serie A TIM 2012/13

Post by Forza Italia!Forza Milan! on Thu Sep 13, 2012 3:34 pm

Perhaps this is a cause of the decline of Italian football, but my interest in football in general has never been lower. It has come to the point where I don't even want to read about it. It actually started with Calciopoli a bit, then continued with the constant lying by the suits who run the game in Italy. The final straw I think was this latest scandal, and the obdurate refusal of Italian lawmakers to do something good for the country e.g. Legge Crimi, the law that would help stadia and infrastructure development in Italy immensely. Even though I shouldn't be, I continue to be dismayed by how there is no sense of pulling in the same direction in Italy.

On a more positive note, this waning of interest has really allowed me more time to do other things. At the end of the day, it's a fairly significant waste of time to watch Italian football, where half the games may actually be fixed, and are played in stadia that resemble refugee camps. Add to this the stupid puling of managers like Conte (though I do think he was treated a bit harshly most recently), the constant mendacity of scum like Berlusconi and his acolyte Galliani etc. and it's all a bit tiresome.

Also I really despise trash like John Terry, but that's more to do with my gripe with football in general. Smile
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abundance

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Re: Serie A TIM 2012/13

Post by abundance on Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:19 pm

Kroos wrote:So you say that i was in right, and the complete italien fraction on here was wrong Wink
Ah was it you announcing doom one or two seasons ago?
Then yea, you were so right.
Tbf, out of the top 3 the situation isn't that horrible (Napoli, Roma, Fiorentina and Lazio are arguably in better shape than a couple years ago, and Udinese is stable in his profitable business), but yes, competitiveness at the top has sank and the overall level of cash flow, enthusiasm and management write off any chance of recover, just as you predicted.
silent
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Fey

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Re: Serie A TIM 2012/13

Post by Fey on Thu Sep 13, 2012 6:32 pm

bluenine wrote:
Fey wrote:Midget earns the most of the entire Serie A? That says a lot.

Behind Ligue 1 and the Russian League me thinks!

Serie A has no PSG or Anzhi or Zenit, no doubt there. But thanks to the quality of home grown talent, and the great historic scouting network in South America, its still a quality league. It will take a few more years of decline before it goes below Russian or French leagues in quality.

Unfortunately, the decline in top teams is quite evident, specially in the city of Milan where the two clubs have apparently reduced their wages by over 100m in the last 6 months. Sure, Juve, Fiorentina and Roma strengthened, while Napoli & Inter did some good business. But for me, this summer was a confirmation of a few sad facts...

1. Serie A is not attractive to top players anymore. Juve's failure to sign RvP/Llorente/Berbatov is a good example. Italy's best club had to settle for Bendtner inspite of having money & intention to buy a top striker.

2. Serie A cannot keep hold of their stars. Ibra, Silva and Lavezzi. Those probably were among the best of foriegn talent in Serie A. The exodus of world class players continues.

3. Serie A cannot compete with the Top 3 leagues in wages. Milan cut 60m from their wage bill, Inter cut 41m. These figures are telling. Also, Udinese exchanged almost their entire first team for money.

The future of Serie A is has never been so heavily reliant on homegrown talent in my lifetime. You can take that as a positive or a negative, but the memories of the glorious 90s are long forgotten...

France and Russia WILL overtake Italy though. If it won't be this year, then next year. It's inevitable. Especially cause both will get new stadiums soon for their respective Euro and WC.

Being reliant on homegrown talents sounds great. But Holland also has great homegrown talent and a great scouting network. Is it among the best leagues? No. It's a feeder league. And that's what awaits Serie A as well.
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Forza Italia!Forza Milan!

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Re: Serie A TIM 2012/13

Post by Forza Italia!Forza Milan! on Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:31 pm

Fey--Also Portugal. Portugal, imo, is the biggest threat to Serie A in the ranking.

The only thing is that there are a good number of clubs from Italy in the top 20 list of revenue earners. While it will be difficult to compete with Real Madrid, Barcelona, and Man City, I do think that Italy will still have clubs going deep in tournaments. Also Napoli, Fiorentina etc. are in good standing.

Finally, what Kroos predicted was right but not exactly groundbreaking. The structural problems of Italian football were well documented. I think Italian football as a brand is disastrous, but as a philosophy and form of footballing expression it still has value (like we saw in Euro2012).

The thing is when England and Germany want to fix a problem, they do. It seems any remedy in Italy will always be stymied by parties who only care about themselves.


110%

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Re: Serie A TIM 2012/13

Post by 110% on Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:03 pm

Forza Italia!Forza Milan! wrote:Perhaps this is a cause of the decline of Italian football, but my interest in football in general has never been lower. It has come to the point where I don't even want to read about it. It actually started with Calciopoli a bit, then continued with the constant lying by the suits who run the game in Italy. The final straw I think was this latest scandal, and the obdurate refusal of Italian lawmakers to do something good for the country e.g. Legge Crimi, the law that would help stadia and infrastructure development in Italy immensely. Even though I shouldn't be, I continue to be dismayed by how there is no sense of pulling in the same direction in Italy.

On a more positive note, this waning of interest has really allowed me more time to do other things. At the end of the day, it's a fairly significant waste of time to watch Italian football, where half the games may actually be fixed, and are played in stadia that resemble refugee camps. Add to this the stupid puling of managers like Conte (though I do think he was treated a bit harshly most recently), the constant mendacity of scum like Berlusconi and his acolyte Galliani etc. and it's all a bit tiresome.

Also I really despise trash like John Terry, but that's more to do with my gripe with football in general. Smile

ok

Agree with almost all of this but I came to that realisation in 2006/2007 after calciopoli.

I don't really mind John Terry. I feel more cheated by wayne bridge, I have paid money to Sky, who then gave it to Chelsea, who gave it to bridge for sitting on the bench and not doing anything. That's my money, bridge, you c**t Grr


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Re: Serie A TIM 2012/13

Post by bluenine on Fri Sep 14, 2012 8:02 am

I know the downwards trend is disheartening, but its not all doom & gloom in Serie A. Unlike someone others here, I don't think its inevitable that French, Portuguese and Russian league will overtake Serie A. The depth of talent in Serie A is still very good, and the TV revenues are still next to only the EPL. Its still a very popular league in South America and Asia. I guess we can all speculate how low Serie A will sink, but my guess is that it has more of less bottomed out already. The overall spending and the total wages in the league have leveled up over the last 3 seasons, inspite of these cuts. The clubs are starting to turn a corner as far as finances are concerned. Some are already quite healthy. Sure, another dip and some other rising leagues may overtake Serie A, but its hardly inevitable.

Football legacies happen in cycles. And the wheel is turning. Serie A will be back. It just may take a decade to recover from all this mess.
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Re: Serie A TIM 2012/13

Post by bluenine on Fri Sep 14, 2012 8:06 am

Forza Italia!Forza Milan! wrote:Finally, what Kroos predicted was right but not exactly groundbreaking. The structural problems of Italian football were well documented.
I think we all have been discussing it even much before calciopoli... The decline started in the late 90s, calciopoli was just another milestone along this downward journey...
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Re: Serie A TIM 2012/13

Post by The Easter Bunny on Fri Sep 14, 2012 1:11 pm

bluenine wrote:
Forza Italia!Forza Milan! wrote:Finally, what Kroos predicted was right but not exactly groundbreaking. The structural problems of Italian football were well documented.
I think we all have been discussing it even much before calciopoli... The decline started in the late 90s, calciopoli was just another milestone along this downward journey...

With the apparent rise of the German and French league it might take more than a decade, I can see English football shittpaning once the money dries up. We have a severe lack of home grown talent which every other major country seems to have in abundance.
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Forza Italia!Forza Milan!

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Re: Serie A TIM 2012/13

Post by Forza Italia!Forza Milan! on Fri Sep 14, 2012 3:17 pm

The Easter Bunny wrote:
bluenine wrote:
Forza Italia!Forza Milan! wrote:Finally, what Kroos predicted was right but not exactly groundbreaking. The structural problems of Italian football were well documented.
I think we all have been discussing it even much before calciopoli... The decline started in the late 90s, calciopoli was just another milestone along this downward journey...

With the apparent rise of the German and French league it might take more than a decade, I can see English football shittpaning once the money dries up. We have a severe lack of home grown talent which every other major country seems to have in abundance.

I wouldn't say the French league is on the rise. In fact, other than the anomaly of PSG, the French league may struggle with the new tax legislation on the horizon, which would demand 75% of income from people who earn more than 1m.

German Bundesliga is the healthiest league around, and all power to them. Their rise is a comprehensive one in that their teams are financially healthy. PSG is rich, but makes a paltry revenue. If FFP is serious, then PSG should be kicked out of European competition eventually. If.
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Re: Serie A TIM 2012/13

Post by The Easter Bunny on Fri Sep 14, 2012 3:44 pm

Forza Italia!Forza Milan! wrote:
The Easter Bunny wrote:
bluenine wrote:
Forza Italia!Forza Milan! wrote:Finally, what Kroos predicted was right but not exactly groundbreaking. The structural problems of Italian football were well documented.
I think we all have been discussing it even much before calciopoli... The decline started in the late 90s, calciopoli was just another milestone along this downward journey...

With the apparent rise of the German and French league it might take more than a decade, I can see English football shittpaning once the money dries up. We have a severe lack of home grown talent which every other major country seems to have in abundance.

I wouldn't say the French league is on the rise. In fact, other than the anomaly of PSG, the French league may struggle with the new tax legislation on the horizon, which would demand 75% of income from people who earn more than 1m.

German Bundesliga is the healthiest league around, and all power to them. Their rise is a comprehensive one in that their teams are financially healthy. PSG is rich, but makes a paltry revenue. If FFP is serious, then PSG should be kicked out of European competition eventually. If.

I wasn't aware that tax was going to be implemented, if the tax rate stays the same and PSG are seen to be successful it wouldn't surprise me if certain big clubs (with history) ala Marseilles are invested in.
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Forza Italia!Forza Milan!

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Re: Serie A TIM 2012/13

Post by Forza Italia!Forza Milan! on Fri Sep 14, 2012 3:48 pm

The Easter Bunny wrote:
Forza Italia!Forza Milan! wrote:
The Easter Bunny wrote:
bluenine wrote:
Forza Italia!Forza Milan! wrote:Finally, what Kroos predicted was right but not exactly groundbreaking. The structural problems of Italian football were well documented.
I think we all have been discussing it even much before calciopoli... The decline started in the late 90s, calciopoli was just another milestone along this downward journey...

With the apparent rise of the German and French league it might take more than a decade, I can see English football shittpaning once the money dries up. We have a severe lack of home grown talent which every other major country seems to have in abundance.

I wouldn't say the French league is on the rise. In fact, other than the anomaly of PSG, the French league may struggle with the new tax legislation on the horizon, which would demand 75% of income from people who earn more than 1m.

German Bundesliga is the healthiest league around, and all power to them. Their rise is a comprehensive one in that their teams are financially healthy. PSG is rich, but makes a paltry revenue. If FFP is serious, then PSG should be kicked out of European competition eventually. If.

I wasn't aware that tax was going to be implemented, if the tax rate stays the same and PSG are seen to be successful it wouldn't surprise me if certain big clubs (with history) ala Marseilles are invested in.

Yes, these clubs are more attractive to investors than Milan, say, because of the fact that they own their stadia. Very few owners want to be embroiled in the debilitating bureaucracy of Italy, in order to sort out the mess with city councils over desperately needed ownership change or at the very least refurbishment. I applaud Roma's owners, and I applaud Inter's recent initiative, but so far only Juventus and Reggiana (not Reggina) have their own arena. Juve are going to capitalize on corporate hospitality, sponsors etc. over time, but they still play in the context of Serie A, and as bluenine mentioned, they got the wrong Arsenal player.

It makes me sick. I grew up watching Italian football, and it is a big part of me. I am really saddened at how Italians have the dependable capacity to squander their huge potential. FFS, Milan is one of the most storied clubs of world football, but that will matter little when it comes to potential for investment. Structural problems overshadow, IMO, a club's narrative in this day and age.

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Re: Serie A TIM 2012/13

Post by bluenine on Sat Sep 15, 2012 3:04 pm

Forza Italia!Forza Milan! wrote:
The Easter Bunny wrote:
Forza Italia!Forza Milan! wrote:
The Easter Bunny wrote:
bluenine wrote:
Forza Italia!Forza Milan! wrote:Finally, what Kroos predicted was right but not exactly groundbreaking. The structural problems of Italian football were well documented.
I think we all have been discussing it even much before calciopoli... The decline started in the late 90s, calciopoli was just another milestone along this downward journey...

With the apparent rise of the German and French league it might take more than a decade, I can see English football shittpaning once the money dries up. We have a severe lack of home grown talent which every other major country seems to have in abundance.

I wouldn't say the French league is on the rise. In fact, other than the anomaly of PSG, the French league may struggle with the new tax legislation on the horizon, which would demand 75% of income from people who earn more than 1m.

German Bundesliga is the healthiest league around, and all power to them. Their rise is a comprehensive one in that their teams are financially healthy. PSG is rich, but makes a paltry revenue. If FFP is serious, then PSG should be kicked out of European competition eventually. If.

I wasn't aware that tax was going to be implemented, if the tax rate stays the same and PSG are seen to be successful it wouldn't surprise me if certain big clubs (with history) ala Marseilles are invested in.

Yes, these clubs are more attractive to investors than Milan, say, because of the fact that they own their stadia. Very few owners want to be embroiled in the debilitating bureaucracy of Italy, in order to sort out the mess with city councils over desperately needed ownership change or at the very least refurbishment.

I don't think the PSG acquisition was that much of an appreciation of Ligue 1, it had more to do with other reasons like the attractiveness of the biggest club from Paris. Paris is one of the biggest cities in Western Europe, and one of the richest. If a rich investor wanted to make a new superpower in football, Paris made a lot of sense from a financial point of view.

Doing a similar cursory analysis, some other clubs which may become similarly attractive to investors are Hamburger SV, Rapid Vienna, Marseille, Roma, and Birmingham City, but none of them are even half as attractive as PSG must have been. Which explains the attactiveness of clubs from London, clubs like Chelsea, West Ham and Fulham for example.
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Forza Italia!Forza Milan!

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Re: Serie A TIM 2012/13

Post by Forza Italia!Forza Milan! on Sat Sep 15, 2012 4:47 pm

Good point, but PSG's acquisition also had to do with how easy it is to see a vision take material effect. In Italy, zamparini and adl have been bashing their heads against city councils trying to get ownership of stadia. They make small progress, then nothing. Meanwhile a quick google.it search for the stadium law reveals the same old "the law will be passed imminently." it is not just stadia that are outdated, it is also a way of thinking. Why would sheikhs or russians want to invest in Italian football if they can't even maximize matchday revenue? Okay i understand that these people are not in it to make money, but they are in it to raise the brand and their own profile.

What FFP will do is stratify the upper class of football even further because revenue growth in football now is rapid. Those who will take full advantage in the next five to ten years will be the new establishment. Milan can sign commercial deals with nivea and whomever but if they dont have a fundamentally modern approach in place (in thought, to Galliani's credit, they do) it will matter little. I don't buy also that the prem is staring down a precipice..man united may have monstrous debt but as a franchise they will always be attractive. Also the prem has spent the last ten years buttressing their brand. Italy has spent the last ten years in scandal and legal wrangling.
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Re: Serie A TIM 2012/13

Post by Murray on Sat Sep 15, 2012 9:40 pm

Another defeat for Milan.
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Re: Serie A TIM 2012/13

Post by Pras_tama on Sat Sep 15, 2012 9:55 pm

O' dear Doh
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Re: Serie A TIM 2012/13

Post by Pirlo on Sat Sep 15, 2012 9:57 pm

Well, here's Galliani's 'modern Milan' Very Happy lol! lol!

Agazzi's save from Palermo Yikes ok
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Re: Serie A TIM 2012/13

Post by bluenine on Sat Sep 15, 2012 11:45 pm

Pirlo wrote:Well, here's Galliani's 'modern Milan' Very Happy lol! lol!

You know you are in serious trouble when Emanuelson starts to look like your best player... It was a shocking game. Like I had said, the huge gap left behind by the departures of Ibra-Cassano and Thiago-Nesta will be felt.

Very nervous about Inter's game tomorrow... we need to start winning, and an away win at Torino followed by a desperately needed home win against Zenit could put our season back on track.
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Re: Serie A TIM 2012/13

Post by Pirlo on Sun Sep 16, 2012 12:23 pm

Hernanes Ale
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Re: Serie A TIM 2012/13

Post by bluenine on Sun Sep 16, 2012 3:16 pm

Pirlo wrote:Hernanes Ale

Immobile <Ale>

Borriello just hit the post Sad Its almost set for a tragic ending to the game...

57' AS Roma 2 - 0 Bologna
57' Fiorentina 1 - 0 Catania
57' Genoa 1 - 0 Juventus
57' Napoli 2 - 1 Parma
57' Pescara 0 - 1 Sampdoria
57' Siena 0 - 2 Udinese
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Re: Serie A TIM 2012/13

Post by Pirlo on Sun Sep 16, 2012 3:26 pm

Luca Toni like it's 2005/06! cheers

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Re: Serie A TIM 2012/13

Post by bluenine on Sun Sep 16, 2012 3:40 pm

bluenine wrote:
Immobile <Ale>

Borriello just hit the post Sad Its almost set for a tragic ending to the game...
And its tragic now Sad Genoa 1-2 Juve
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Murray

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Re: Serie A TIM 2012/13

Post by Murray on Sun Sep 16, 2012 3:54 pm

What happened to Roma, 2-0 up and lost 3-2.
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Re: Serie A TIM 2012/13

Post by Tarun on Sun Sep 16, 2012 4:09 pm

Juve turned the game around in the 2nd half. Decisive performance from the subs. Giaccherini was impressive but it was Buffon who we need to thank for keeping us in the game. But a worrisome performance from the back three...they were not even half of their usual self. Hopefully it changes in time for the midweek game against Chelsea
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Re: Serie A TIM 2012/13

Post by bluenine on Sun Sep 16, 2012 4:36 pm

Murray wrote:What happened to Roma, 2-0 up and lost 3-2.

Usual Roma self-destruct. Even crazy Zeman cannot change that...

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