FC Bayern 2012/13

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Allez les rouges

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Re: FC Bayern 2012/13

Post by Allez les rouges on Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:28 am

TM wrote:
Super Mourinho wrote:
TM wrote:Looks like Pep didn't have the bottle to go and manage a team in the EPL.
How dare you Grr

Laughing

Seriously, what a pussy! No disrespect to Bayern, but winning the Bundesliga with Bayern Munich is hardly a difficult task.

scratch

And winning the league with Manchester City, or even Chelsea, would be a superhuman achievement?

I get the point and that bald statement is obviously true – but it's about (winning? regularly?) the CL and a wider project, surely. Bayern is a great fit for him, far better than the English options – apart from being a well-run club with history and romantic significance – and surely the best other than where he's come from, given the kind of players he has to work with. Ideally Bayern would have a youth project to work with.

Think of where Barcelona were under Rijkaard, it's about taking Bayern to the next level like he did with Barcelona.
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Allez les rouges

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Re: FC Bayern 2012/13

Post by Allez les rouges on Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:35 am

blutgraetsche wrote:
debaser wrote:Wow Blut is back. Finally got over the Euros Wink

That debacle vs. Sweden was a much nastier pill to swallow than the self-amputation vs. Italy.

No it wasn't, not if you were there in Warsaw, not for a fecking qualifier which won't make a blind bit of difference where for an hour we saw some of the most remarkable football I've seen. The capitulation was horrific but it was like the Arsenal 4-4 at Newcastle reloaded – let's face it I dream of having that team (and some of those players) back right now.

At least then it wasn't down to Löw's mistakes or attitude, more the general concern of how a bunch of players can toss a game away like that. In Warsaw he made so many mistakes he didn't have the subs or the time to correct half of them.

Great to have you back Alter Ale
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blutgraetsche

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Re: FC Bayern 2012/13

Post by blutgraetsche on Thu Jan 17, 2013 12:33 pm

It really was though for me. The reason is that in the first 60 minutes, we played the best football I have ever seen us play for as long as I live, no exaggeration. It was perfection. You simply can't move the ball and players and exploit space better than that. I'd even say that with that level of execution, we would have destroyed any team out there, some of the moves the team showed you simply can't defend against, very fast and clean passing in the tightest of spaces.

But the last 30 minutes really broke something in me, maybe because the first 60 minutes were so good. I will probably never forgive the team that last third of the game for the sheer indifference of the players for what was happening. I felt betrayed. The Italy game was all Löw, it had Löw's failure written all over it, his ineptitude when it comes to correcting tactical mistakes every once in a while he doesn't get it right from the beginning (which was so glaring obvious even to more casual fans I talked to before the match btw.). I have learned to deal with that ineptitude, even if it has cost us a few titles by now, I accept that weakness because it has always been there and most likely won't go away (unfortunately). But I simply can not accept the attitude of the team in that Sweden match, a competitive match that is.

I haven't been the same ever since when it comes to the NT. A lot more indifferent than I used to be.

Brian2468

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Re: FC Bayern 2012/13

Post by Brian2468 on Thu Jan 17, 2013 12:38 pm

Well look at this, the Germans buying into Spanish world class quality good move for Guardiola Tiki Taka here we come and much better than going to the EPL the quality of the players will be better for him in Bayern Munich. Ale
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messiah

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Re: FC Bayern 2012/13

Post by messiah on Thu Jan 17, 2013 12:57 pm

OMG Losing to Jose, with key players out, pique, abidal, Pedro,puyol,villa. And even with that the record in the last season we meat stands a 3-2-1.

Yes I was so afraid of Jose and the pressure that I left, because he has managed to get the best of me when god sends a volcano or I defeat myself, by Tinkering a bit to much, while trying to take my team to the next level, because I have proven the only person I can compete with is myself, and it's not just about winning for me

I won't even get into how his 343 experiments are paying of this season, making the players even more spatially and tactically aware, those who see it knows and those who don't are called Jose fans.

He choose Bayern because the have all the fundamental needed for him to do what he does best which is create a certain type of football, going to England would mean only has to do one thing win. And he is no Jose though he has won the lot.


110%

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Re: FC Bayern 2012/13

Post by 110% on Thu Jan 17, 2013 1:01 pm

blutgraetsche wrote:
110% wrote:The German league is getting better and better, so I am not putting the league down. It is just all the BS about a "challenge". Basically he left barcelona to take a break as he couldn't handle the pressure, especially after a season where he lost to mourinho. It's pretty clear he doesn't want too hard a challenge or to have too much pressure, and actually I agree with that from the work-life balance point of view. However people should stop trying to make it out like he went there for a "challenge". He went to a team that is most likely to win its domestic league every season and is already at the top end of the CL every season. The team already plays attractive football and has great players. His biggest challenge will be to make robben pass the ball.


Even if you don't think that the domestic competition will be a challenge, a challenge that many other renowned managers from abroad have failed to win in the past btw., what about the European challenge?

Sure, Bayern do have a very good team, one of the very best teams in the world atm. But the same could have been said about Rijkaard's Barcelona that Pep took over. He took that very good, talented team that, despite the abundace of talent, had finished third in the league behind Villareal (and double digits behind a rather mediocre Real Madrid) and transformed them to a legendary team that dominates our era in a way very few, if any, have done before. He took them to the next level, exactly what the Bayern management wants him to do with their own team.

Winning the CL with Bayern in an era that is dominated by that legendary team is most definitely a challenge, a big one. And even if Bayern manage to win the CL this season under Heynckes already, the big challenge remains to repeat that success in foreseeable time, not to mention the record breaking domestic form should Bayern continue to play as they did in the first half of the season.

I fail to see how you could really argue about this not being a challenge.

I didn't argue anywhere that it is NOT a challeng, every job in every league can be a challenge whether winning a league or avoiding relegation. I am saying he chose a rather easier challenge than he could have done, so everyone bleating on about choosing bayern specifically for the challenge should stop talking BS. He chose a rather easier job with a greater likelihood of success (good setup, good players etc), for which I don't blame him.

I am not sure how he will ever manage to make a team that has appeared in 2 of the last 3 CL finals (losing them both but one on penalties) more consistent in Europe.

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blutgraetsche

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Re: FC Bayern 2012/13

Post by blutgraetsche on Thu Jan 17, 2013 3:33 pm

Ok, of course there are more difficult challenges than improving one of the best teams in the world, e.g. winning a major title with a small club. However, it is a challenge that not many can meet. A lot coaches / managers, good ones even, do a good job in building a good team and bringing that team to a certain level - examples for this are Mancini or Jol. However, those managers fail to take the next step with their teams, making them reach another level, making them greater than the sum of their parts basically.

Improving an already excellent team is quite a demanding task, not to mention the pressure involved. It needs a high degree of sophistication. You could say that improving / polishing an excellent team is the work of an artist, while building a good team in first place needs a mason. It's a different kind of challenge.

Bayern have done well in Europe in the last few years, no doubt about it. But so did Barca under Rijkaard. That little extra between doing well and dominance is what Bayern hope to achieve with Guardiola. Doing well isn't enough, they want titles.
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Allez les rouges

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Re: FC Bayern 2012/13

Post by Allez les rouges on Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:05 pm

blutgraetsche wrote:It really was though for me. The reason is that in the first 60 minutes, we played the best football I have ever seen us play for as long as I live, no exaggeration. It was perfection. You simply can't move the ball and players and exploit space better than that. I'd even say that with that level of execution, we would have destroyed any team out there, some of the moves the team showed you simply can't defend against, very fast and clean passing in the tightest of spaces.

But the last 30 minutes really broke something in me, maybe because the first 60 minutes were so good. I will probably never forgive the team that last third of the game for the sheer indifference of the players for what was happening. I felt betrayed. The Italy game was all Löw, it had Löw's failure written all over it, his ineptitude when it comes to correcting tactical mistakes every once in a while he doesn't get it right from the beginning (which was so glaring obvious even to more casual fans I talked to before the match btw.). I have learned to deal with that ineptitude, even if it has cost us a few titles by now, I accept that weakness because it has always been there and most likely won't go away (unfortunately). But I simply can not accept the attitude of the team in that Sweden match, a competitive match that is.

I haven't been the same ever since when it comes to the NT. A lot more indifferent than I used to be.

Hm, fair enough if you mean because of the attitude of the players rather than the coach, I can see what you mean, though you might argue the buck stops with the manager anyway. Certainly they have a lot to prove as well as him now. Still, the magnitude and significance of the semi-final and the waste it represented was far more depressing for me – there were few positives to take there, for a start.

Perhaps the mental/psychological impact Guardiola might make is important here too – for all the talent and quality of the team's performances, it doesn't take much to argue that like the national team, this Bayern team have shown a soft centre when put under pressure and facing a cogent game-plan.
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blutgraetsche

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Re: FC Bayern 2012/13

Post by blutgraetsche on Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:20 pm

No doubt about that. otto always had a point when questioning the attitude of the current crop of German players. The problem was that he created a pseudo-sociological 'theory' of general 'feminisation' of German society as the reason for it, build on clichés and cheap shots. This and his vast generalisations - not all of our players are alike.

Germany under Löw haven't won a title not because he wears blue cashmere sweaters and participates in Nivea ads, or because he is a proponent of 'modern' attacking football. They haven't because of his limitations as a manager and because of lack of 'bite' and winning mentality in the team, something he apparently is not able to instill.

Compare the NT to Klopp's Dortmund, for instance. Dortmund's philosophy is just as modern and attacking as Germany's (it's actually better because it's more flexible - the team is just as comfortable in keeping the ball as it is on the counter), but not only is the manager more tactically astute and the team more disciplined, the willingness to run the extra mile and work their asses off and play brilliant football is what seperates them. They know they are good, they play well and just like Germany, can completely annihilate teams when they click, but they know that they have to work hard for consistent success and don't solely rely on their talent.

This is why they are a lot more similar to the Spanish NT than the German NT.
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Re: FC Bayern 2012/13

Post by Isco Benny on Thu Jan 17, 2013 6:25 pm

Wrong thread I know, but whilst I have your attention: What do you think of Lewis Holtby Blut?

Looking forward to seeing the Germander at Spurs next season. All the more sweeter that he rejected Allez's Gooners in the process. Clearly has an exceptional attitude Laughing
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blutgraetsche

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Re: FC Bayern 2012/13

Post by blutgraetsche on Thu Jan 17, 2013 6:49 pm

Holtby is very, very good. His problem in the national team is the ridiculous level of competition on his position, but that doesn't take anything away from his quality. Excellent passer, good vision and technique and a very good shot, too. He is also a born leader, being the German U21 captain for quite a while now.

Quick anecdote: On the day of that mentioned debacle vs. Sweden that alienated me from the senior team, the U21 side had a crucial must win match against a strong Swiss side, on their turf that is. Switzerland had drawn the first match in Germany, so our U21 side had to beat them on their own turf to advance to the U21 Euros. The pressure was quite high, as the media had reported about this extensively and the match was actually shown on German national TV prior to the Sweden match of the senior team.

Holtby scored the crucial first goal and led the side to an excellent 3-1 victory.

Congratulations on the signing, expect him to do really well in England, especially at a footballing club like Spurs.
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Isco Benny

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Re: FC Bayern 2012/13

Post by Isco Benny on Thu Jan 17, 2013 8:54 pm

blutgraetsche wrote:Holtby is very, very good. His problem in the national team is the ridiculous level of competition on his position, but that doesn't take anything away from his quality. Excellent passer, good vision and technique and a very good shot, too. He is also a born leader, being the German U21 captain for quite a while now.

Quick anecdote: On the day of that mentioned debacle vs. Sweden that alienated me from the senior team, the U21 side had a crucial must win match against a strong Swiss side, on their turf that is. Switzerland had drawn the first match in Germany, so our U21 side had to beat them on their own turf to advance to the U21 Euros. The pressure was quite high, as the media had reported about this extensively and the match was actually shown on German national TV prior to the Sweden match of the senior team.

Holtby scored the crucial first goal and led the side to an excellent 3-1 victory.

Congratulations on the signing, expect him to do really well in England, especially at a footballing club like Spurs.

Super stuff: the Blut Seal Of Approval can only be a good thing. I am chuffed to bits we managed to sign him, like what I've seen so far - there are more naturally talented players, lots of them playing for Germany - however I also noticed an obvious fighting spirit in him which I've seen when he's played for Schalke. Clearly also why Freund rates him so highly.

Anyway, back to Bayern. Will they sign Xavi - or other key Barca players - next season one wonders?? I pick out Xavi because he's getting on a bit now, Barca have plenty of talent sitting in their reserves, he might fancy a final challenge abroad.

Exciting times for Bayern fans. The profile of the club has just been given an enormous boost

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messiah

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Re: FC Bayern 2012/13

Post by messiah on Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:08 pm

Bastian isn't the closest player to Xavier outside of barca so that would be a waste of money, plus pep isn't going to try and buy any barca player unless they want to
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blutgraetsche

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Re: FC Bayern 2012/13

Post by blutgraetsche on Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:13 pm

I don't think that Bayern will sign any Barcelona player without their approval. First of all, both clubs have a very good, friendly relationship for decades. And second, I really can't see Pep doing anything to harm his beloved Barca.

This said, I could see Bayern sign a few young Spaniards in the coming years, not necessarily Barcelona players though. But I believe that Pep intends to make full use of the Bayern academy which isn't too shabby, even if a bit overrated in the (foreign) press due to that exceptional generation of players they had recently. Bayern's academy actually isn't Germany's best, that's why they signed Sammer to change that. Sammer's impact could be massive and I agree with otto that this should benefit Pep in one way or another.

It really helps that Bayern already are the closest thing to Barca in Europe philosophy wise. They have the second highest possession stats in Europe, and the second highest passing accuracy. So the foundation is already there. It's all about finetuning and adding (removing) the final bits of the puzzle.

I'm really looking forward to the Bayern - Dortmund encounters. Thing is, in my humble opinion, Dortmund already have the antidote to Tiki Taka in Klopps very flexible system. They are as comfortable in possession as they are on the counter, neither a counter attacking team nor a possession one, a new-ish hybrid, very accurate passers and extremely vertical and fast, yet with the ability to slow things down and be patient when necessary. And most importantly, they are every bit as aggressive as Barcelona when it comes to pressing the opposition. Dortmund are unique tactically. And Klopp constantly tries to evolve, similar to Pep in many respects. I think due to their directness and effectiveness on the break (unfortunately not always efficient enough) in addition to the aggressive pressing, they could be a handful even for the 'sterile domination' Barcelona side.
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Re: FC Bayern 2012/13

Post by Kroos on Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:37 am

i would have prefered a german coach Wink, but pep is probably the best non german solution

i really haven`t expected this media hype all arround the world, this was the headline on every sports newspage, even in usa

good stuff for die Bundesliga, thats for sure, haven`t realized how big Peps name is

BUT i think he aint "that" spezial at all, i hope he has a plan B, no false 9, no tiki taka, for me he has to prove it outside barca to be a real "ernst happel" (not that i know ernst, but everyone talks that he was way ahead of his time)

i think a false 9 and tika taka won`t be possible with the current players, and the movement off the ball is already world class, at least in the defensive way, i think kroos and müller will be peps favourite players, and of course martinez

i still think pep does not deserve this GLOBAL hype, i think its not really hard to win titles with the current spain/barca generation, aragones did, and del bosque did (yeah del bosque won 2 cl, but arround 2000 there were with bayern, manu and real just 3 good team in europe) and his record after 2002 was just poor, and del bosque had also as player big relation with madrid

and look at vilanova, looks like this team can still smash every record (with some ageing stars) but i have to admit that barca is more messi than ever, i think this could be a flaw in the CL

17 MILLION salary IF ITS TRUE, thats extraordinary, but let`s stay positive, i think pep can improve our overall attacking game, hopefully not at the cost of our defensive organisation Wink


also i don`t think that he will buy spanish players, maybe just really special talents/players, sammers intention relys on german youth, and there are right now some very good prospects in the bayern youth


AND IS PEP THE HOLY GRAIL AND THE LAST PIECE OF THE PUZZLE FOR DIE MANNSCHAFT TO FINALLY BEAT SPAIN IN 2014, he will tell the bayern stars every secret cheers Wink well LÖW would still fuck it up Grr



Last edited by Kroos on Fri Jan 18, 2013 6:52 am; edited 1 time in total
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Effenberg

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Re: FC Bayern 2012/13

Post by Effenberg on Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:39 am

Just dropping in to say that I'm looking forward to Pep being our coach. He's one of the good guys. Hopefully, his success will be measured not merely by titles. His haul at Barca cannot really be replicated anyway.
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blutgraetsche

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Re: FC Bayern 2012/13

Post by blutgraetsche on Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:29 am

I think that the hype about this had a lot to do with the fact that the English (speaking) media was caught by 'surprise'. The surprise that the hottest commodity in the world of managers did not choose the 'best league in the world™" as his next destination, despite the vast riches of Russia and Abu Dhabi sponsoring it. That was unheard of.

Prestige / marketing wise, the deal has already paid off for Bayern. It has raised their profile globally and added quite a bit of 'glamour' to the league as a whole.
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blutgraetsche

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Re: FC Bayern 2012/13

Post by blutgraetsche on Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:38 am

Re 'false 9':

IMHO, Pep would have actually liked to have a true #9 that would have fit into the Barca system. Eto'o was perfect in sporting terms, but not character wise. Ibra wasn't both, but Pep was still willing to break the bank for him before he knew. I don't think that the 'false 9' concept is set in stone, it's just one option that worked extremely well for Barcelona due to having the best player in the world on that position.

It'll be really interesting to see how things will work out tactically. Exciting times for Bayern fans and football fans in general.
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blutgraetsche

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Re: FC Bayern 2012/13

Post by blutgraetsche on Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:18 am

Sign him:



Özil -> Iniesta
Kroos -> Xavi
Schweinsteiger -> Busquets

Let Pep do what Löw fails to do, form them into a true powerhouse of midfield, to the benefit of Bayern and Germany. He'd truely blossom for a footballing team, under a coach with full appreciation of his style and quality.

Martinez to play the role of Mascherano, the midfielder in defence. Müller on the wing or probably as the false 9 even.

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blutgraetsche

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Re: FC Bayern 2012/13

Post by blutgraetsche on Fri Jan 18, 2013 11:11 am

Good article on the tactical aspects of the Guardiola signing, unfortunately German only:

http://spielverlagerung.de/2013/01/17/zukunftsausblick-die-bayern-unter-josep-guardiola/


Good site btw.
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Re: FC Bayern 2012/13

Post by Fade out on Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:24 pm

I don't think Schweini would be used in Busquets role. If anything I think Gustavo will be playing that role..
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messiah

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Re: FC Bayern 2012/13

Post by messiah on Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:32 pm

Can bastian play ghetto busquets role, think the best side of his game will be wasted there,
As it relates to the false 9, we have to remember that he won treble playing with eto as his starting striker and Ibrahim started until he had a falling out with pep. The false 9 was just away to get messing closer to goal, to

1) get the best out of him
2) cut down on his injuries and all those burst of pace, tracking back and dribbles hey use to make on the left, only served to overburdened his muscles.

Put him in the middle add that problem is solved.

But if robben stays don't be surprised if pep plays him down the middle.
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blutgraetsche

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Re: FC Bayern 2012/13

Post by blutgraetsche on Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:50 pm

Fade out wrote:I don't think Schweini would be used in Busquets role. If anything I think Gustavo will be playing that role..

It's not unlikely that Gustavo leaves the club. He isn't good enough technically (especially passing wise) to play on the Busquets position. The only position I could see Pep try him is the central defence, the Mascherano position in the Barca system.

Martinez is the most likely candidate for the Busquets position, simply because Bayern lack an Iniesta like player. Kroos is not dynamic enough and Bastian is a very different kind of player altogether. Going by pace and dribbling skills, Robben and especially Ribery could probably play on that position, but the former tends to be too selfish while the latter is not clinical enough. Both also lack the vision and "game intelligence" of Iniesta.

Hence my suggestion of Özil. He is very gifted, German and probably unhappy in Madrid under Mourinho.
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blutgraetsche

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Re: FC Bayern 2012/13

Post by blutgraetsche on Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:57 pm

messiah wrote:Can bastian play ghetto busquets role, think the best side of his game will be wasted there,
As it relates to the false 9, we have to remember that he won treble playing with eto as his starting striker and Ibrahim started until he had a falling out with pep. The false 9 was just away to get messing closer to goal, to

1) get the best out of him
2) cut down on his injuries and all those burst of pace, tracking back and dribbles hey use to make on the left, only served to overburdened his muscles.

Put him in the middle add that problem is solved.

But if robben stays don't be surprised if pep plays him down the middle.


The Busquets position is very very important in Barcelona's system. It's a very demanding task actually, as it combines tactical discipline, aggressiveness and defensive solidity, excellent passing and more importantly, the ability to read the game. From all the players Bayern have, only Bastian and Martinez fit into that role, with different strengths and weaknesses.

Kroos' ideal position is somewhere between #8 and #10, very similar to Xavi under Pep actually. His passing is arguably even better than Schweinsteiger's, and he almost never loses the ball, more so than Bastian even. Bastian is the more complete player in the sense that he is more solid defensively and simply the more mature player, with a better attitude and standing in the team. But Kroos lacks the dribbling skills and pace to be effective in the Iniesta role, he is more of a Xavi than an Iniesta.

Bayern lack an Iniesta, if we are talking about adopting the Barca system 1:1. That will likely not happen though.

Agree that Robben could / should be tried on the false 9.
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messiah

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Re: FC Bayern 2012/13

Post by messiah on Fri Jan 18, 2013 1:10 pm

Ok always thought leopard was closer to iniesta
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Re: FC Bayern 2012/13

Post by Jaime on Fri Jan 18, 2013 2:17 pm

Apparently Pep's only two signings next summer will be Silva and Isco. He wants a midfield of Javi Martinez-Silva-Isco. So much for the conveyer belt! lol!
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Re: FC Bayern 2012/13

Post by Antarion on Fri Jan 18, 2013 2:20 pm



Isco would be good i suppose, but Silva is not needed imo. Can imagine he want to get rid of robben or use him as a super sub.

Well still only specualtions
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blutgraetsche

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Re: FC Bayern 2012/13

Post by blutgraetsche on Fri Jan 18, 2013 2:21 pm

You can't possibly believe that.

Silva would make kinda sense for the Iniesta role, but I can't see City selling him. Isco is more realistic. But either way, there is no way in hell that Pep will completely overhaul the area of the team that is actually the strongest. One of the very best in Europe that is. Not to mention that he doesn't even know his team yet to even think about making such a fundamental change to its structure. Makes no sense whatsoever.
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Registration date : 2006-08-08

Re: FC Bayern 2012/13

Post by Jaime on Fri Jan 18, 2013 2:22 pm

It's in SPORT so it must be true! Wink
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messiah

Number of posts : 3084
Registration date : 2011-11-03

Re: FC Bayern 2012/13

Post by messiah on Fri Jan 18, 2013 2:32 pm

Lol sport are fools to even print that he wont change the midfield everyone knows this. If he doesn't want one of robben or ribery he might buy

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Re: FC Bayern 2012/13

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