U-21 European Championship 2013

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Kroos

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by Kroos on Tue Jun 11, 2013 7:08 pm

Jaime wrote:
Kroos wrote:

and how many from spains U21 winning team 2011 made the step into top class footballer:

martinez
mata
de gea Laughing


To be fair - Muniain, Thiago, Montoya, Dominguez, Adrian Lopez, Capel, and Azpilicueta have all been capped by the senior national team. The only players from that squad that have turned out to be fails are Bojan, Miño, and Jeffren (no surprise they are all cules).

yeah they have been capped for spain, but when you just look at the club performances, then mata, martinez and de gea are simply another league
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bluenine

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by bluenine on Tue Jun 11, 2013 7:17 pm

Kroos wrote:
here you realize how poor this tournament is, italy field a back 5 where all of them play in serie B, we field clemens, playing in 2nd Bundesliga

Oye! All 5 of them are INTER players. Do not try to belittle the conveyor belt of talent that is Serie B, ex-Serie B players have won more World Cups and CL's than the Bundesliga in the last 12 years Razz
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messiah

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by messiah on Tue Jun 11, 2013 7:22 pm

the thing the germans are over looking when they say what if gotze,reus, kroos, draxler, gündogan, schürrle were playing u-21 football is this.

what would the german senior national team look like when compared to spain without them. they would probably be on the level of a england or portugal.

now you but those players in the u21 and would the beat spain?, most likely while probably producing a few more players that will be promoted to the senior team.

but they then forget this, Thiago,isco,mendi,muni,martinez,de gea (most of whom are as talented as their german peers), will be added to, Silva,Mata,cesc,martinez,busquets,ramos,pique,alba,all of whom are still young.

so the after 2014 thing doesn't really work.

what this tells you, is that spain is constantly producing great talent, while so far it seems that the germans are just producing a golden generation.

thats not even including, oliver torres,jese and gerard, who are probably the most talented young players in spain.
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Kroos

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by Kroos on Tue Jun 11, 2013 7:23 pm

bluenine wrote:
Kroos wrote:
here you realize how poor this tournament is, italy field a back 5 where all of them play in serie B, we field clemens, playing in 2nd Bundesliga

Oye! All 5 of them are INTER players. Do not try to belittle the conveyor belt of talent that is Serie B, ex-Serie B players have won more World Cups and CL's than the Bundesliga in the last 12 years Razz

do you count the juve team that has been punished into serie B? Laughing

Nesta hasn`t played Serie B, neither Cannavaro cheers
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Kroos

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by Kroos on Tue Jun 11, 2013 7:35 pm

messiah wrote:

but they then forget this, Thiago,isco,mendi,muni,martinez,de gea (most of whom are as talented as their german peers), will be added to, Silva,Mata,cesc,martinez,busquets,ramos,pique,alba,all of whom are still young.

so the after 2014 thing doesn't really work.

what this tells you, is that spain is constantly producing great talent, while so far it seems that the germans are just producing a golden generation.


i agree with the first, and disagree with the 2nd

there is a lot coming in our youth, we are on a good way to produce 2-3 high quality players in every age group

goretzka, meyer, can, günter, aydar to name a couple

meyer seems to be even more gifted then götze, OTTO will be pleased, he is an Futsal victim Wink

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Kroos

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by Kroos on Tue Jun 11, 2013 7:53 pm

Israel-England 1:0

Laughing

Brian2468

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by Brian2468 on Tue Jun 11, 2013 8:17 pm

Luis wrote:The problem England have fundamentally is that at all levels they're coached by losers. Stuart Pearce is a loser, Roy Hodgson is a loser, a lot of the coaches seem to be failed managers who believe in tradition and ridgity rather than adventure and a new exciting style and philosophy.

England's players aren't good enough but when you add backwards managers who are pretty much clueless they're of course going to suffer.


If every country was on their game and playing to the best of their ability at the same time the latin countries would win most often like Spain, Argentina, Brazil, Italy, Portugal, They have the perfect physical attributes along with the mindset to out play anyone.

Germany are allowed to win only in part because of the probabilities in human nature, and to seek or push the boundaries to improve. (belief)

England is no worse or better than Germany for that matter just motivated on a different plain. Winning has never been the objective it may look like that but it is not. Its Money. If Everyone plays football not just the very specialized individual then the outcome is greater for the pockets of the business man. We are average in the UK as we do everything including industry the same way. Short sighted.

Of course that can change and we can still win the WC if we wanted it enough. The answer is biting us on the nose and we will never use its power!! of well. pirat









Last edited by Brian2468 on Tue Jun 11, 2013 11:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Kimbo

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by Kimbo on Tue Jun 11, 2013 8:30 pm

Holy shit they lost to Israel. I despair.
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Fey

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by Fey on Tue Jun 11, 2013 8:43 pm

Super Mourinho wrote:
Fey wrote:He was awful. And im not alone in this. We might very well win our 3th title in 6 years. But Dutch football is in a lower state then ever before. More and more are we turning into the nation we looked down on, and rightly so, all those years. I see players who need 4 minutes to control a ball. Who just outmuscle and outpace their opponents cause they are a few years older then them. I dont want to become Nigeria. The level of coaching is dropping by the minute. Soon a typical Dutch football training would resemble the one they had in Germany all those years.



No

Thank god im not alone in this, Cruyff, Fey, van Gaal and van Hanegem, protectors of the realm that's called Dutch football, all have ring the bells, cause if we dont act now, everything is lost. It should be forbidden for clubs to grow players like Khedira, Fer, Fellaini, Yaya Toure etc. Away with them! I want Clasie's, Isco's, Xavi's, Pirlo's.

IE

Progress should DIE!

I don't get the ferosity with which these things are debated in Holland. I mean either way Holland never wins anyway. Aside from 88 Holland has been eye candy that sometimes liven up tournaments(like in 2000 or 2008) for the neutrals. The one time they actually used dirty tactics(2010) they still couldn't win shit. But perhaps that is the point. If Holland isn't known as the pretty team they have nothing to fall back on.

Holland doesn't have any players at the level of Fellaini or Yaya Toure anyway. Instead they have the usual midgets who lose anyway. The Holland side of 74 wasn't filled with midgets either.

Xavier
Does any side do better historically when they are favourites? All of the big teams who have through the years have mostly done so as outsiders. Brazil weren't favourites in 94 and 2002 nor were Italy in 82 or 06.


What have Fellaini and Yaya won then? And Fer is just as good/bad as them, depends of how you look at it. Like it or not football is still entertainment.

Watching 10 men behind the ball is not entertaining! Im fairly sure that if Holland would continue like the way they did play in 2010, Holland will win something before 2020. But that should not be the goal. Cause winning alone doesnt count, nobody will remember Italy in 2006 or Inter in 2010, bar their fans, but in 2070 people will still talk about the current Barcelona team. People still remember Holland 1974 and Brazil 1982. Because they entertained people Ale
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abundance

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by abundance on Tue Jun 11, 2013 9:42 pm

Kroos wrote:
bluenine wrote:
Kroos wrote:
here you realize how poor this tournament is, italy field a back 5 where all of them play in serie B, we field clemens, playing in 2nd Bundesliga

Oye! All 5 of them are INTER players. Do not try to belittle the conveyor belt of talent that is Serie B, ex-Serie B players have won more World Cups and CL's than the Bundesliga in the last 12 years Razz

do you count the juve team that has been punished into serie B? Laughing

Nesta hasn`t played Serie B, neither Cannavaro cheers

this guy debuted in A at 24, and was playing again in B in 2005.
It stings eh Cool
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Super Progress

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by Super Progress on Tue Jun 11, 2013 10:02 pm

Fey wrote:
Super Mourinho wrote:
Fey wrote:He was awful. And im not alone in this. We might very well win our 3th title in 6 years. But Dutch football is in a lower state then ever before. More and more are we turning into the nation we looked down on, and rightly so, all those years. I see players who need 4 minutes to control a ball. Who just outmuscle and outpace their opponents cause they are a few years older then them. I dont want to become Nigeria. The level of coaching is dropping by the minute. Soon a typical Dutch football training would resemble the one they had in Germany all those years.



No

Thank god im not alone in this, Cruyff, Fey, van Gaal and van Hanegem, protectors of the realm that's called Dutch football, all have ring the bells, cause if we dont act now, everything is lost. It should be forbidden for clubs to grow players like Khedira, Fer, Fellaini, Yaya Toure etc. Away with them! I want Clasie's, Isco's, Xavi's, Pirlo's.

IE

Progress should DIE!

I don't get the ferosity with which these things are debated in Holland. I mean either way Holland never wins anyway. Aside from 88 Holland has been eye candy that sometimes liven up tournaments(like in 2000 or 2008) for the neutrals. The one time they actually used dirty tactics(2010) they still couldn't win shit. But perhaps that is the point. If Holland isn't known as the pretty team they have nothing to fall back on.

Holland doesn't have any players at the level of Fellaini or Yaya Toure anyway. Instead they have the usual midgets who lose anyway. The Holland side of 74 wasn't filled with midgets either.

Xavier
Does any side do better historically when they are favourites? All of the big teams who have through the years have mostly done so as outsiders. Brazil weren't favourites in 94 and 2002 nor were Italy in 82 or 06.


What have Fellaini and Yaya won then? And Fer is just as good/bad as them, depends of how you look at it. Like it or not football is still entertainment.

Watching 10 men behind the ball is not entertaining! Im fairly sure that if Holland would continue like the way they did play in 2010, Holland will win something before 2020. But that should not be the goal. Cause winning alone doesnt count, nobody will remember Italy in 2006 or Inter in 2010, bar their fans, but in 2070 people will still talk about the current Barcelona team. People still remember Holland 1974 and Brazil 1982. Because they entertained people Ale
Fellaini has played for Everton and Yaya has won with Barcelona+Man City and is one of the best players in the world in his position. I don't particularly care about who remembers what to be honest so I suppose we simply come from two different places. What I do know is that people know has won the most titles and ultimatley those debates are more interesting to be part of.
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Isco Benny

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by Isco Benny on Wed Jun 12, 2013 1:51 am

Allez les rouges wrote:
Disco Benny wrote:I agree, neither are Ronaldo and Messi.

No one claims that Barcelona or Madrid = Spain.

Spain = Spain.

Club football and international football just aren't the same. Different tactics, styles, coaches, mixes of players.

Yes, plenty of Germans in the CL final, this is something to be proud of for sure.

But there were 11 English players who played in the 2008 final. I distinctly don't recall anyone back then claiming it meant the English National Team was a dominant force.

That's all I'm saying really.

Also, surely you can see that Spain is producing great young players, they may end up with losing some great older generation, but they have plenty of talent coming through in the likes of Nunian, Thiago, Isco, Tello, Morata etc.

I really think you should just accept Germany aren't better, and unlikely to be anytime soon. It will just be easier for your soul. Chill with the reality, it's no disgrace to be second best to a Spanish team that may go down as one of the best there ever was Ale

Oh really, what a load of tiresome reflexive bullshit, I don't for a second believe you believe it yourself. When your best player by far is Lewis fucking Holtby, you've rightly left all your absolute top players in the age group elsewhere and you are up against two top world nations both equipped with a whole array of first-teamers and genuine world-class talents, of course you're going to struggle.

It makes pretty damn clear that there's no endless conveyor belt on all positions but with the exception of upfront beyond the current first choices, there's no immediate cause for concern. The idea that this tells us more about the current state of play between the top nations than the Champions League semi-finals is beyond laughable.

Why are some of you good German fellows so touchy when any of us dare to claim you're not quite ready yet to usurp Spain and be proclaimed the best footballing nation in the World? scratch

'Tiresome reflexive bullshit' would be hearing from Kroos how Germany are going to catch Spain and dominate every season since 2006 (although to be fair, it doesn't bother me at all. I rather admire his dedication to the cause Laughing). Germany have failed to beat Spain in international football at all levels many times, haven't won anything since 1996 at senior level, I would suggest that tells us more about the international hierarchy than Dortmund and Bayern's recent success no? Is it really such a besmirch upon the Teuton psyche to be labelled the 2nd best nation in Europe behind the Spics? Since when did you hulking Germans become such little bitches? Wink

110%

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by 110% on Wed Jun 12, 2013 8:03 am

messiah wrote:the thing the germans are over looking when they say what if gotze,reus, kroos, draxler, gündogan, schürrle were playing u-21 football is this.

what would the german senior national team look like when compared to spain without them. they would probably be on the level of a england or portugal.

now you but those players in the u21 and would the beat spain?, most likely while probably producing a few more players that will be promoted to the senior team.

but they then forget this, Thiago,isco,mendi,muni,martinez,de gea (most of whom are as talented as their german peers), will be added to, Silva,Mata,cesc,martinez,busquets,ramos,pique,alba,all of whom are still young.

so the after 2014 thing doesn't really work.

what this tells you, is that spain is constantly producing great talent, while so far it seems that the germans are just producing a golden generation.

thats not even including, oliver torres,jese and gerard, who are probably the most talented young players in spain.

Spain has always constantly produced great talent, but this is actually their golden generation where they won something. You argue that xavi is the greatest ever and at the same time think that thiago (or whoever) is going to seamlessly replace him. When xavi is no longer there it will make a difference no matter how talented a player is brought in.

Most of spain's best young players are attacking midfielders/wingers who will sit on the bench next to mata. Where are all the defenders that are coming through? What about strikers? Those are the positions that spain needs players.


110%

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by 110% on Wed Jun 12, 2013 8:44 am

Stuart Pearce, what a legend. First he blames players that weren't there, then he blames players that were there. At no point does he take any responsibility:
http://espnfc.com/news/story/_/id/1474144/england-u21-boss-stuart-pearce-blames-players-israel-loss?cc=5739

Surely he cannot survive getting sacked, but who is there to take over?
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Luis

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by Luis on Wed Jun 12, 2013 9:50 am

110% wrote:Stuart Pearce, what a legend. First he blames players that weren't there, then he blames players that were there. At no point does he take any responsibility:
http://espnfc.com/news/story/_/id/1474144/england-u21-boss-stuart-pearce-blames-players-israel-loss?cc=5739

Surely he cannot survive getting sacked, but who is there to take over?

Knowing the FA; MON, Pulis or Glen Hoddle.
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debaser

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by debaser on Wed Jun 12, 2013 10:16 am

probably be Southgate. Hoddle would be alright.
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Allez les rouges

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by Allez les rouges on Wed Jun 12, 2013 11:03 am

Disco Benny wrote:
Allez les rouges wrote:
Disco Benny wrote:I agree, neither are Ronaldo and Messi.

No one claims that Barcelona or Madrid = Spain.

Spain = Spain.

Club football and international football just aren't the same. Different tactics, styles, coaches, mixes of players.

Yes, plenty of Germans in the CL final, this is something to be proud of for sure.

But there were 11 English players who played in the 2008 final. I distinctly don't recall anyone back then claiming it meant the English National Team was a dominant force.

That's all I'm saying really.

Also, surely you can see that Spain is producing great young players, they may end up with losing some great older generation, but they have plenty of talent coming through in the likes of Nunian, Thiago, Isco, Tello, Morata etc.

I really think you should just accept Germany aren't better, and unlikely to be anytime soon. It will just be easier for your soul. Chill with the reality, it's no disgrace to be second best to a Spanish team that may go down as one of the best there ever was Ale



Oh really, what a load of tiresome reflexive bullshit, I don't for a second believe you believe it yourself. When your best player by far is Lewis fucking Holtby, you've rightly left all your absolute top players in the age group elsewhere and you are up against two top world nations both equipped with a whole array of first-teamers and genuine world-class talents, of course you're going to struggle.

It makes pretty damn clear that there's no endless conveyor belt on all positions but with the exception of upfront beyond the current first choices, there's no immediate cause for concern. The idea that this tells us more about the current state of play between the top nations than the Champions League semi-finals is beyond laughable.



Why are some of you good German fellows so touchy when any of us dare to claim you're not quite ready yet to usurp Spain and be proclaimed the best footballing nation in the World?  scratch

'Tiresome reflexive bullshit' would be hearing from Kroos how Germany are going to catch Spain and dominate every season since 2006 (although to be fair, it doesn't bother me at all. I rather admire his dedication to the cause Laughing). Germany have failed to beat Spain in international football at all levels many times, haven't won anything since 1996 at senior level, I would suggest that tells us more about the international hierarchy than Dortmund and Bayern's recent success no?  Is it really such a besmirch upon the Teuton psyche to be labelled the 2nd best nation in Europe behind the Spics? Since when did you hulking Germans become such little bitches? Wink
Because I ASSUME you were just trolling/fishing when on the one hand acknowledging there was some kind of duopoly (which no one else has claimed) and then, happarently somewhat contradictorily, claiming that there was still a massive gap, i.e. at the top level, not just in this U21 tournament.

I admit that this tournament does not look good. I also admit that apart from claiming two narrow defeats, one unfortunate, and all the excuses about absences and injuries I can't claim to be too upset or worried.

Messiah makes a good point about the importance of Germany's young players to the A side, but is a bit naughty in reading in too much to the apparent averageness of the group of players sent to this tournament. As Kroos alludes to, there are important players such as Müller or Reus who hardly played at youth level, and if we look at the C-ish-teams that played in America against Ecuador and the US, there looks to be a reasonable amount of depth. Yes conceding four goals to the mighty US and A does not look clever, but watching the game I put that down to Löw's complacent, pressing-free coaching, not the fringe players who largely looked OK and in some cases were let down by their more experienced colleagues.

You don't need quality to go ten deep on every position; if that's the case then you're right I'm sure Spain have an advantage, over everyone. But if there aren't multiple appealing options behind the first and second rank in defence (do there need to be for a tournament?), one would have thought there's more than enough depth in midfield with Schweinsteiger, Gündogan, the Bender twins, Khedira and Kroos to choose between in deep midfield and a selection of Reus, Müller, Götze, Özil, Draxler, Podolski, Kroos (or even Holtby) more offensively.

I'm not saying that Spain don't remain the no.1 measure of all things. I'm merely repeating the point made by Blut ad nauseam that if nothing else the Champions League told us that on the playing side it is easy to pick a team (and for that matter a bench, a whole squad) from the Bayern and Dortmund squads alone to compete on level terms with the Spanish, that coaching and management is key and that Löw has no excuses any more. (for that matter I dare to suggest that  Hrubesch for instance would have done better than Adrion with the current U21 bunch)

On paper half the Dortmund team should have had little to no chance of making the Real Madrid squad (although this point is exaggerated, since on form the other half should have walked straight into the Real team); but who won there?
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bluenine

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by bluenine on Wed Jun 12, 2013 1:41 pm

Anyone claiming that Euro U21 does not hold much significance to the senior team, that definitely does not hold true for the Italians. U21 is a proper training ground for future Azzurri squads, and most of the senior squad have developed using this tournament as a stepping ground. Just  to list some of the players who have come into the senior team via the Azzurrini set up over the ages: 

2004 Azzurrini Champions: De Rossi, Gilardino, Barzagli, Zaccardo, Gamberini, Brighi, Amelia, Bonera

2000 Azzurrini Champions: Pirlo, Gattuso, Abbiati, De Sanctis, Perrotta, Coco, C Zanetti

1996 Azzurrini Champions: Buffon, Nesta, Cannavaro, Totti, Panucci, Tommasi, Delvecchio, Tachinardi

1994 Azzurrini Champions: Toldo, Inzaghi, Vieri, Cannavaro, Panucci.

Other years: 

2002: Pirlo, Iaquinta, Brighi, Marchionni, Ferrari, Blasi, Caracciolo, Maccarone, Pinzi, Bonazzoli

2006: Chiellini, Pazzini, Montolivo,  Pepe.

2009: Balotelli, Ranocchia, Marchisio, Giovinco, Sirigu, Candreva, Criscito, Abate, Cigarini, De Ceglie, Pisano


In the mid 2000s, this trend took a hit as Lippi & Co did not give youth too many chances, and it impacted Italy's form post 2006. Prandelli has revived this tradition of using Euro U21 as a testing ground for the senior team, and you can see more and more players from U21 making the step up of late. 

From the current U21 squad, I see an Azzurri future for: Verratti, Destro, Gabbiadini, Insigne, Florenzi, Bardi, Caldirola, & Marrone. Perhaps Saponara, Immobile, Borini, Biraghi, Bertolacci, & Donati could also make it.
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Fey

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by Fey on Wed Jun 12, 2013 4:21 pm

Omg both Clasie as Vilhena will start. Infact all subs wills start. After van Gaal had openly critic with the shite playstyle.Shame I cant watch it.But the midfield is way more balanced now. Though I would swap Fer for Maher.
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Jaime

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by Jaime on Wed Jun 12, 2013 5:31 pm

MORATA IS UNSTOPPABLE!!!!!!!!!
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Isco Benny

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by Isco Benny on Wed Jun 12, 2013 6:38 pm

Allez les rouges wrote:
Disco Benny wrote:
Allez les rouges wrote:
Disco Benny wrote:I agree, neither are Ronaldo and Messi.

No one claims that Barcelona or Madrid = Spain.

Spain = Spain.

Club football and international football just aren't the same. Different tactics, styles, coaches, mixes of players.

Yes, plenty of Germans in the CL final, this is something to be proud of for sure.

But there were 11 English players who played in the 2008 final. I distinctly don't recall anyone back then claiming it meant the English National Team was a dominant force.

That's all I'm saying really.

Also, surely you can see that Spain is producing great young players, they may end up with losing some great older generation, but they have plenty of talent coming through in the likes of Nunian, Thiago, Isco, Tello, Morata etc.

I really think you should just accept Germany aren't better, and unlikely to be anytime soon. It will just be easier for your soul. Chill with the reality, it's no disgrace to be second best to a Spanish team that may go down as one of the best there ever was Ale





Oh really, what a load of tiresome reflexive bullshit, I don't for a second believe you believe it yourself. When your best player by far is Lewis fucking Holtby, you've rightly left all your absolute top players in the age group elsewhere and you are up against two top world nations both equipped with a whole array of first-teamers and genuine world-class talents, of course you're going to struggle.

It makes pretty damn clear that there's no endless conveyor belt on all positions but with the exception of upfront beyond the current first choices, there's no immediate cause for concern. The idea that this tells us more about the current state of play between the top nations than the Champions League semi-finals is beyond laughable.





Why are some of you good German fellows so touchy when any of us dare to claim you're not quite ready yet to usurp Spain and be proclaimed the best footballing nation in the World?  scratch

'Tiresome reflexive bullshit' would be hearing from Kroos how Germany are going to catch Spain and dominate every season since 2006 (although to be fair, it doesn't bother me at all. I rather admire his dedication to the cause Laughing). Germany have failed to beat Spain in international football at all levels many times, haven't won anything since 1996 at senior level, I would suggest that tells us more about the international hierarchy than Dortmund and Bayern's recent success no?  Is it really such a besmirch upon the Teuton psyche to be labelled the 2nd best nation in Europe behind the Spics? Since when did you hulking Germans become such little bitches? Wink


Because I ASSUME you were just trolling/fishing when on the one hand acknowledging there was some kind of duopoly (which no one else has claimed) and then, happarently somewhat contradictorily, claiming that there was still a massive gap, i.e. at the top level, not just in this U21 tournament.

I admit that this tournament does not look good. I also admit that apart from claiming two narrow defeats, one unfortunate, and all the excuses about absences and injuries I can't claim to be too upset or worried.

Messiah makes a good point about the importance of Germany's young players to the A side, but is a bit naughty in reading in too much to the apparent averageness of the group of players sent to this tournament. As Kroos alludes to, there are important players such as Müller or Reus who hardly played at youth level, and if we look at the C-ish-teams that played in America against Ecuador and the US, there looks to be a reasonable amount of depth. Yes conceding four goals to the mighty US and A does not look clever, but watching the game I put that down to Löw's complacent, pressing-free coaching, not the fringe players who largely looked OK and in some cases were let down by their more experienced colleagues.

You don't need quality to go ten deep on every position; if that's the case then you're right I'm sure Spain have an advantage, over everyone. But if there aren't multiple appealing options behind the first and second rank in defence (do there need to be for a tournament?), one would have thought there's more than enough depth in midfield with Schweinsteiger, Gündogan, the Bender twins, Khedira and Kroos to choose between in deep midfield and a selection of Reus, Müller, Götze, Özil, Draxler, Podolski, Kroos (or even Holtby) more offensively.

I'm not saying that Spain don't remain the no.1 measure of all things. I'm merely repeating the point made by Blut ad nauseam that if nothing else the Champions League told us that on the playing side it is easy to pick a team (and for that matter a bench, a whole squad) from the Bayern and Dortmund squads alone to compete on level terms with the Spanish, that coaching and management is key and that Löw has no excuses any more. (for that matter I dare to suggest that  Hrubesch for instance would have done better than Adrion with the current U21 bunch)

On paper half the Dortmund team should have had little to no chance of making the Real Madrid squad (although this point is exaggerated, since on form the other half should have walked straight into the Real team); but who won there?

You know what they say about people who assume, young Obi-Wan Laughing

I was not trolling at all. Occasionally I think it's important to discuss with Kroos the reality. I'm all for being involved in this big happy Teuton lovefest, heck Dortmund are a frickin' enviably awesome team, from the fans to the players to the coach to the style of football to the PR office right down to the kit. Bayern the powerhouse of Europe. The Bundesliga has led the way in the Champions League this year, German players have shown themselves to be rather wonderful this season at club level.

But that doesn't mean one should lose sight - I've always said Germany are the only real contenders to Spain. But that's still all they are at International level. It may change, but it hasn't happened yet. I don't believe Club and International football are directly correlated.

Also, whilst a player of Mata's quality cannot get into the Spain team, and the number of brilliant young players continually churning through their ranks, it's going to take a special team to usurp them. So I'm not ready to jump onto that bandwagon just yet.

Incidentally, your point about real depth is a valid one, however International tournaments are a long slog over a short period, different to European Cup seasons - Germany still have a number of key players such as Schweinsteiger who are harder to replace (as proven in the Euros recently) than Spain manage to do with theirs which is ultimately a reason they have been able to sweep 3 titles in 5 years.

On a slight sidenote - if it were down to a starting 11, I'd put Belgium as one of the upcoming contenders given on paper at least they could well be a match for anyone in the next couple of years.
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bluenine

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by bluenine on Wed Jun 12, 2013 7:07 pm

bluenine wrote:
bluenine wrote:We might as well skip the rest of the group phase and go directly to the semis:
Italy vs Holland
Spain vs DoesNotMata


Kroos wrote:germany will beat spain



As I was saying, young padowan, bring on the semis!

And now confirmed....

Spain 3-0 Holland. 

I think Italy vs Holland will be a balanced affair, a good game to watch. If Verratti-Florenzi-Saponara-Insigne can dominate the midfield, Italy will have the edge - a lot depends on the midfield here. This Italy could out-spain the dutch.
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messiah

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by messiah on Thu Jun 13, 2013 2:15 am

110% wrote:
messiah wrote:the thing the germans are over looking when they say what if gotze,reus, kroos, draxler, gündogan, schürrle were playing u-21 football is this.

what would the german senior national team look like when compared to spain without them. they would probably be on the level of a england or portugal.

now you but those players in the u21 and would the beat spain?, most likely while probably producing a few more players that will be promoted to the senior team.

but they then forget this, Thiago,isco,mendi,muni,martinez,de gea (most of whom are as talented as their german peers), will be added to, Silva,Mata,cesc,martinez,busquets,ramos,pique,alba,all of whom are still young.

so the after 2014 thing doesn't really work.

what this tells you, is that spain is constantly producing great talent, while so far it seems that the germans are just producing a golden generation.

thats not even including, oliver torres,jese and gerard, who are probably the most talented young players in spain.



Spain has always constantly produced great talent, but this is actually their golden generation where they won something. You argue that xavi is the greatest ever and at the same time think that thiago (or whoever) is going to seamlessly replace him. When xavi is no longer there it will make a difference no matter how talented a player is brought in.  

Most of spain's best young players are attacking midfielders/wingers who will sit on the bench next to mata. Where are all the defenders that are coming through? What about strikers? Those are the positions that spain needs players.

and you argue that he is nothing without messi, yet claim he will be difficult to replace.

the biggest issues for spain over the coming years will be replacing del bosque and xavi, to replace xavi is made easier if they have a good coach, much like barca xavi gives spain their identity, so it instead of trying to find a direct replacement, a good coach will simple change the style some what and build the team around different players and with the amount of talented midfielders spain have they should be more than find.

as to the defenders, the core of their back line are all 26 are below, so they have another 6-8 years in them. if you had seen the names alba,pique and ramos you wouldnt have asked this foolish question, plus they have the likes of martinez,dani carjaval, and azpillicueta coming up.

no worries there.

as the euros showed they dont really need a striker, just someone to score the goals.


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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by Jaime on Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:51 am

110% wrote:
messiah wrote:the thing the germans are over looking when they say what if gotze,reus, kroos, draxler, gündogan, schürrle were playing u-21 football is this.

what would the german senior national team look like when compared to spain without them. they would probably be on the level of a england or portugal.

now you but those players in the u21 and would the beat spain?, most likely while probably producing a few more players that will be promoted to the senior team.

but they then forget this, Thiago,isco,mendi,muni,martinez,de gea (most of whom are as talented as their german peers), will be added to, Silva,Mata,cesc,martinez,busquets,ramos,pique,alba,all of whom are still young.

so the after 2014 thing doesn't really work.

what this tells you, is that spain is constantly producing great talent, while so far it seems that the germans are just producing a golden generation.

thats not even including, oliver torres,jese and gerard, who are probably the most talented young players in spain.



Spain has always constantly produced great talent, but this is actually their golden generation where they won something. You argue that xavi is the greatest ever and at the same time think that thiago (or whoever) is going to seamlessly replace him. When xavi is no longer there it will make a difference no matter how talented a player is brought in.  

Most of spain's best young players are attacking midfielders/wingers who will sit on the bench next to mata. Where are all the defenders that are coming through? What about strikers? Those are the positions that spain needs players.


Of course midfielders grow on trees in Spain so I won't bother to go through all of them.

There was actually a pretty decent generation of centre backs, from the last U21 Euro that was/is pretty promising. Guys like Victor Ruiz, Alvaro Dominguez, Alberto Botia, Mikel San Jose who are all around 24 years old. They are all first choice for their clubs well I don't know about Dominguez since he moved to Germany but none of them are going to displace Ramos, Pique, or Albiol who are still pretty much in the prime of their careers. From the current U21s I think Inigo Martinez and Jordi Amat are probably the most talented. Jon Aurtenetxe is really good also although he plays mostly at left back for Athletic. I think right back is going to be really intriguing to watch after the next WC because you have Azpilicueta, Dani Carvajal, and Martin Montoya who will all be legitimate candidates for the position. Left back there isn't as much. But Jordi Alba is pretty young and this guy from Espanyol, Victor Alvarez might turn out to be pretty decent or maybe Alberto Moreno who just has a pretty decent breakthrough with Sevilla last year.

Striker is a big question mark. There is no real obvious successor to the likes of Villa and Torres. I don't think Soldado or Negredo are world class and after that there is even in a bigger drop off. I can't think of a single Spanish striker in the range of 23-26 years old that is really that good.  Adrian Lopez is I guess the best, the guy is a good footballer but not a great goalscorer. But behind them is Muniain who is more of a second striker/winger but he could probably be good at the false nine.  Rodrigo has had a couple of nice seasons in Portugal for Benfica but I'd like to see what he can do in a bigger team/league. Then there is Morata and Paco Alcacer. Morata for me reminds me a lot of Morientes and ok maybe some people don't think he was that great but let's just say this - the guy won just as many CLs as Messi and he started in all three as opposed to the tax evader. Alcacer is more in the mold of David Villa. Still a bit unproven but there is no doubt he has ability.
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Kroos

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by Kroos on Thu Jun 13, 2013 5:44 am

FACKING SHIT

Since the Triple WIN in 2009 (U21, u19, u17) germany has utterly declined in U-tournaments, read some stuff (the medias where full after the current U21 humiliation) our record is pretty awful, mostly we don`t even qualify for tournaments, our U19 failed to qualify for the coming tournament



and who else is to blame then facking LÖW he decided "all U-teams have to play the same shit style" as  the A-TEAM

LOOK at our U21 Winning Team 2009 (conceded one FREAKING goal in the whole tournament)

LÖWS new style is an open goal for the opponent, every U-TEAM concedes load shit goals
- the DUTCH teached us a lesson in terms of corners (LÖWs Focus is to outplay the opponent with nice footy, with zero defensive organisation, he let our best player schweinsteiger do the dirty work, says it all) once we took off the gas (pressing) we simply look average, very vulnerable (look at the game against USA, a good example, we played without pressing)
our gameplan is way to risky to win tournaments, and far to strength sapping too

yeah OUR A-TEAM player material is world class, thats why we qualify with ease, but that changes not the fact that you can  see in every game our tactical limitations 

LÖW is destroying germany, SACK HIM NOW i am ANNOYED of HIM

110%

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by 110% on Thu Jun 13, 2013 7:23 am

messiah wrote:
110% wrote:
messiah wrote:the thing the germans are over looking when they say what if gotze,reus, kroos, draxler, gündogan, schürrle were playing u-21 football is this.

what would the german senior national team look like when compared to spain without them. they would probably be on the level of a england or portugal.

now you but those players in the u21 and would the beat spain?, most likely while probably producing a few more players that will be promoted to the senior team.

but they then forget this, Thiago,isco,mendi,muni,martinez,de gea (most of whom are as talented as their german peers), will be added to, Silva,Mata,cesc,martinez,busquets,ramos,pique,alba,all of whom are still young.

so the after 2014 thing doesn't really work.

what this tells you, is that spain is constantly producing great talent, while so far it seems that the germans are just producing a golden generation.

thats not even including, oliver torres,jese and gerard, who are probably the most talented young players in spain.





Spain has always constantly produced great talent, but this is actually their golden generation where they won something. You argue that xavi is the greatest ever and at the same time think that thiago (or whoever) is going to seamlessly replace him. When xavi is no longer there it will make a difference no matter how talented a player is brought in.  

Most of spain's best young players are attacking midfielders/wingers who will sit on the bench next to mata. Where are all the defenders that are coming through? What about strikers? Those are the positions that spain needs players.

and you argue that he is nothing without messi, yet claim he will be difficult to replace.

the biggest issues for spain over the coming years will be replacing del bosque and xavi, to replace xavi is made easier if they have a good coach, much like barca xavi gives spain their identity, so it instead of trying to find a direct replacement, a good coach will simple change the style some what and build the team around different players and with the amount of talented midfielders spain have they should be more than find.

as to the defenders, the core of their back line are all 26 are below, so they have another 6-8 years in them. if you had seen the names alba,pique and ramos you wouldnt have asked this foolish question, plus they have the likes of martinez,dani carjaval, and azpillicueta coming up.

no worries there.

as the euros showed they dont really need a striker, just someone to score the goals.



I never said he is nothing without messi, I pointed out his limitations in terms of attack, which is compensated by messi scoring a freakishly large amount of goals for barcelona. I don't rate him as the greatest midfielder ever since he is not the best at attacking or defending, or even with the best all-round skills. He is the best short passer with great control and used in the right system (which he has found at barcelona and spain) he is the best at maintaining possession. Obviously barcelona and spain will suffer trying to play the same way without him because they are set-up like that.

These are spain's results so far in qualifying (only 1 game where they have managed to score more than once):
Sep 11FTGeorgia0-1Spain32,000WC Qual - UEFA (Group Stage 2014)
Oct 12FTBelarus0-4Spain30,000WC Qual - UEFA (Group Stage 2014)
Oct 16FTSpain1-1France46,000WC Qual - UEFA (Group Stage 2014)
Mar 22FTSpain1-1Finland28,000WC Qual - UEFA (Group Stage 2014)
Mar 26FTFrance0-1Spain80,000WC Qual - UEFA (Group Stage 2014)
 
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Allez les rouges

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by Allez les rouges on Thu Jun 13, 2013 11:02 am

Disco Benny wrote:
Allez les rouges wrote:
Disco Benny wrote:
Allez les rouges wrote:
Disco Benny wrote:I agree, neither are Ronaldo and Messi.

No one claims that Barcelona or Madrid = Spain.

Spain = Spain.

Club football and international football just aren't the same. Different tactics, styles, coaches, mixes of players.

Yes, plenty of Germans in the CL final, this is something to be proud of for sure.

But there were 11 English players who played in the 2008 final. I distinctly don't recall anyone back then claiming it meant the English National Team was a dominant force.

That's all I'm saying really.

Also, surely you can see that Spain is producing great young players, they may end up with losing some great older generation, but they have plenty of talent coming through in the likes of Nunian, Thiago, Isco, Tello, Morata etc.

I really think you should just accept Germany aren't better, and unlikely to be anytime soon. It will just be easier for your soul. Chill with the reality, it's no disgrace to be second best to a Spanish team that may go down as one of the best there ever was Ale







Oh really, what a load of tiresome reflexive bullshit, I don't for a second believe you believe it yourself. When your best player by far is Lewis fucking Holtby, you've rightly left all your absolute top players in the age group elsewhere and you are up against two top world nations both equipped with a whole array of first-teamers and genuine world-class talents, of course you're going to struggle.

It makes pretty damn clear that there's no endless conveyor belt on all positions but with the exception of upfront beyond the current first choices, there's no immediate cause for concern. The idea that this tells us more about the current state of play between the top nations than the Champions League semi-finals is beyond laughable.







Why are some of you good German fellows so touchy when any of us dare to claim you're not quite ready yet to usurp Spain and be proclaimed the best footballing nation in the World?  scratch

'Tiresome reflexive bullshit' would be hearing from Kroos how Germany are going to catch Spain and dominate every season since 2006 (although to be fair, it doesn't bother me at all. I rather admire his dedication to the cause Laughing). Germany have failed to beat Spain in international football at all levels many times, haven't won anything since 1996 at senior level, I would suggest that tells us more about the international hierarchy than Dortmund and Bayern's recent success no?  Is it really such a besmirch upon the Teuton psyche to be labelled the 2nd best nation in Europe behind the Spics? Since when did you hulking Germans become such little bitches? Wink




Because I ASSUME you were just trolling/fishing when on the one hand acknowledging there was some kind of duopoly (which no one else has claimed) and then, happarently somewhat contradictorily, claiming that there was still a massive gap, i.e. at the top level, not just in this U21 tournament.

I admit that this tournament does not look good. I also admit that apart from claiming two narrow defeats, one unfortunate, and all the excuses about absences and injuries I can't claim to be too upset or worried.

Messiah makes a good point about the importance of Germany's young players to the A side, but is a bit naughty in reading in too much to the apparent averageness of the group of players sent to this tournament. As Kroos alludes to, there are important players such as Müller or Reus who hardly played at youth level, and if we look at the C-ish-teams that played in America against Ecuador and the US, there looks to be a reasonable amount of depth. Yes conceding four goals to the mighty US and A does not look clever, but watching the game I put that down to Löw's complacent, pressing-free coaching, not the fringe players who largely looked OK and in some cases were let down by their more experienced colleagues.

You don't need quality to go ten deep on every position; if that's the case then you're right I'm sure Spain have an advantage, over everyone. But if there aren't multiple appealing options behind the first and second rank in defence (do there need to be for a tournament?), one would have thought there's more than enough depth in midfield with Schweinsteiger, Gündogan, the Bender twins, Khedira and Kroos to choose between in deep midfield and a selection of Reus, Müller, Götze, Özil, Draxler, Podolski, Kroos (or even Holtby) more offensively.

I'm not saying that Spain don't remain the no.1 measure of all things. I'm merely repeating the point made by Blut ad nauseam that if nothing else the Champions League told us that on the playing side it is easy to pick a team (and for that matter a bench, a whole squad) from the Bayern and Dortmund squads alone to compete on level terms with the Spanish, that coaching and management is key and that Löw has no excuses any more. (for that matter I dare to suggest that  Hrubesch for instance would have done better than Adrion with the current U21 bunch)

On paper half the Dortmund team should have had little to no chance of making the Real Madrid squad (although this point is exaggerated, since on form the other half should have walked straight into the Real team); but who won there?



You know what they say about people who assume, young Obi-Wan Laughing

I was not trolling at all. Occasionally I think it's important to discuss with Kroos the reality. I'm all for being involved in this big happy Teuton lovefest, heck Dortmund are a frickin' enviably awesome team, from the fans to the players to the coach to the style of football to the PR office right down to the kit. Bayern the powerhouse of Europe. The Bundesliga has led the way in the Champions League this year, German players have shown themselves to be rather wonderful this season at club level.

But that doesn't mean one should lose sight - I've always said Germany are the only real contenders to Spain. But that's still all they are at International level. It may change, but it hasn't happened yet. I don't believe Club and International football are directly correlated.

Also, whilst a player of Mata's quality cannot get into the Spain team, and the number of brilliant young players continually churning through their ranks, it's going to take a special team to usurp them. So I'm not ready to jump onto that bandwagon just yet.

Incidentally, your point about real depth is a valid one, however International tournaments are a long slog over a short period, different to European Cup seasons - Germany still have a number of key players such as Schweinsteiger who are harder to replace (as proven in the Euros recently) than Spain manage to do with theirs which is ultimately a reason they have been able to sweep 3 titles in 5 years.

On a slight sidenote - if it were down to a starting 11, I'd put Belgium as one of the upcoming contenders given on paper at least they could well be a match for anyone in the next couple of years.
I don't disagree with any of this, just find it hard to see what your point is if it isn't to gloat at another (in my view, in this case fairly predictably and relatively irrelevant) German failure.

You may be right about a Schweinsteiger being more irreplaceable (though equally you could say, Gündogan is similar to him so that should be a question of experience more than anything else; with Özil, it might be interesting to bet now on him not starting next summer, as right now someone like Götze might be a better and more secure option). The point is that by now it's clear that a match at top level should be 50-50 with Spain having the edge in possession but not in ball-winning, (necessarily) pressing or in creative combination play. That it won't be is almost entirely a coaching issue – I find it hard not to agree completely with Kroos's latest post: there's just no reason or excuse left for the lack of defensive organization, pressing or the huge gaps in midfield.

It's interesting to see with Jaime's post that the positions Spain are less sure about are very similar. And yes, it's about time Belgium made another semi-final.
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Axeslammer

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by Axeslammer on Thu Jun 13, 2013 5:03 pm

Cor Pot is an idiot for substituting his *entire* lineup against the Spanish Doh 

For all the good managers we have, we let the worst ones coach our national youth Evil or Very Mad
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Isco Benny

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by Isco Benny on Fri Jun 14, 2013 1:46 am

Allez les rouges wrote:
Disco Benny wrote:
Allez les rouges wrote:
Disco Benny wrote:
Allez les rouges wrote:
Disco Benny wrote:I agree, neither are Ronaldo and Messi.

No one claims that Barcelona or Madrid = Spain.

Spain = Spain.

Club football and international football just aren't the same. Different tactics, styles, coaches, mixes of players.

Yes, plenty of Germans in the CL final, this is something to be proud of for sure.

But there were 11 English players who played in the 2008 final. I distinctly don't recall anyone back then claiming it meant the English National Team was a dominant force.

That's all I'm saying really.

Also, surely you can see that Spain is producing great young players, they may end up with losing some great older generation, but they have plenty of talent coming through in the likes of Nunian, Thiago, Isco, Tello, Morata etc.

I really think you should just accept Germany aren't better, and unlikely to be anytime soon. It will just be easier for your soul. Chill with the reality, it's no disgrace to be second best to a Spanish team that may go down as one of the best there ever was Ale









Oh really, what a load of tiresome reflexive bullshit, I don't for a second believe you believe it yourself. When your best player by far is Lewis fucking Holtby, you've rightly left all your absolute top players in the age group elsewhere and you are up against two top world nations both equipped with a whole array of first-teamers and genuine world-class talents, of course you're going to struggle.

It makes pretty damn clear that there's no endless conveyor belt on all positions but with the exception of upfront beyond the current first choices, there's no immediate cause for concern. The idea that this tells us more about the current state of play between the top nations than the Champions League semi-finals is beyond laughable.









Why are some of you good German fellows so touchy when any of us dare to claim you're not quite ready yet to usurp Spain and be proclaimed the best footballing nation in the World?  scratch

'Tiresome reflexive bullshit' would be hearing from Kroos how Germany are going to catch Spain and dominate every season since 2006 (although to be fair, it doesn't bother me at all. I rather admire his dedication to the cause Laughing). Germany have failed to beat Spain in international football at all levels many times, haven't won anything since 1996 at senior level, I would suggest that tells us more about the international hierarchy than Dortmund and Bayern's recent success no?  Is it really such a besmirch upon the Teuton psyche to be labelled the 2nd best nation in Europe behind the Spics? Since when did you hulking Germans become such little bitches? Wink






Because I ASSUME you were just trolling/fishing when on the one hand acknowledging there was some kind of duopoly (which no one else has claimed) and then, happarently somewhat contradictorily, claiming that there was still a massive gap, i.e. at the top level, not just in this U21 tournament.

I admit that this tournament does not look good. I also admit that apart from claiming two narrow defeats, one unfortunate, and all the excuses about absences and injuries I can't claim to be too upset or worried.

Messiah makes a good point about the importance of Germany's young players to the A side, but is a bit naughty in reading in too much to the apparent averageness of the group of players sent to this tournament. As Kroos alludes to, there are important players such as Müller or Reus who hardly played at youth level, and if we look at the C-ish-teams that played in America against Ecuador and the US, there looks to be a reasonable amount of depth. Yes conceding four goals to the mighty US and A does not look clever, but watching the game I put that down to Löw's complacent, pressing-free coaching, not the fringe players who largely looked OK and in some cases were let down by their more experienced colleagues.

You don't need quality to go ten deep on every position; if that's the case then you're right I'm sure Spain have an advantage, over everyone. But if there aren't multiple appealing options behind the first and second rank in defence (do there need to be for a tournament?), one would have thought there's more than enough depth in midfield with Schweinsteiger, Gündogan, the Bender twins, Khedira and Kroos to choose between in deep midfield and a selection of Reus, Müller, Götze, Özil, Draxler, Podolski, Kroos (or even Holtby) more offensively.

I'm not saying that Spain don't remain the no.1 measure of all things. I'm merely repeating the point made by Blut ad nauseam that if nothing else the Champions League told us that on the playing side it is easy to pick a team (and for that matter a bench, a whole squad) from the Bayern and Dortmund squads alone to compete on level terms with the Spanish, that coaching and management is key and that Löw has no excuses any more. (for that matter I dare to suggest that  Hrubesch for instance would have done better than Adrion with the current U21 bunch)

On paper half the Dortmund team should have had little to no chance of making the Real Madrid squad (although this point is exaggerated, since on form the other half should have walked straight into the Real team); but who won there?





You know what they say about people who assume, young Obi-Wan Laughing

I was not trolling at all. Occasionally I think it's important to discuss with Kroos the reality. I'm all for being involved in this big happy Teuton lovefest, heck Dortmund are a frickin' enviably awesome team, from the fans to the players to the coach to the style of football to the PR office right down to the kit. Bayern the powerhouse of Europe. The Bundesliga has led the way in the Champions League this year, German players have shown themselves to be rather wonderful this season at club level.

But that doesn't mean one should lose sight - I've always said Germany are the only real contenders to Spain. But that's still all they are at International level. It may change, but it hasn't happened yet. I don't believe Club and International football are directly correlated.

Also, whilst a player of Mata's quality cannot get into the Spain team, and the number of brilliant young players continually churning through their ranks, it's going to take a special team to usurp them. So I'm not ready to jump onto that bandwagon just yet.

Incidentally, your point about real depth is a valid one, however International tournaments are a long slog over a short period, different to European Cup seasons - Germany still have a number of key players such as Schweinsteiger who are harder to replace (as proven in the Euros recently) than Spain manage to do with theirs which is ultimately a reason they have been able to sweep 3 titles in 5 years.

On a slight sidenote - if it were down to a starting 11, I'd put Belgium as one of the upcoming contenders given on paper at least they could well be a match for anyone in the next couple of years.


I don't disagree with any of this, just find it hard to see what your point is if it isn't to gloat at another (in my view, in this case fairly predictably and relatively irrelevant) German failure.

You may be right about a Schweinsteiger being more irreplaceable (though equally you could say, Gündogan is similar to him so that should be a question of experience more than anything else; with Özil, it might be interesting to bet now on him not starting next summer, as right now someone like Götze might be a better and more secure option). The point is that by now it's clear that a match at top level should be 50-50 with Spain having the edge in possession but not in ball-winning, (necessarily) pressing or in creative combination play. That it won't be is almost entirely a coaching issue – I find it hard not to agree completely with Kroos's latest post: there's just no reason or excuse left for the lack of defensive organization, pressing or the huge gaps in midfield.

It's interesting to see with Jaime's post that the positions Spain are less sure about are very similar. And yes, it's about time Belgium made another semi-final.

Wel,, OBVIOUSLY I'm going to take SOME enjoyment out of Germany's failure. A) Because I am English B) Because Kroos predicting DOMILIATION on here constantly means there must be a YIN to his delectable YANG C) Did I mention I was English?

On the plus side, Holtby was rather impressive Ale
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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by Allez les rouges on Fri Jun 14, 2013 10:56 am

I should point out that I is NOT Kroos despite happarent similarities and although he is very reasonable about most things these days. It would take not an irrelevance like claiming the no.1 ranking, but winning the World Cup, to claim this Germany is on a level with Spain, and none of us thinks that's going to happen right now for the reasons expressed. But bit weird to be on the bandwagon as a proper supporter one year and then opportunistically jump off at some relatively irrelevant youth tournament – the worst kind of JCL Erm

Holtby/Stuart Broad is a bit of a bellend to be fair Ale

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

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