U-21 European Championship 2013

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Kroos

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by Kroos on Wed Jun 05, 2013 8:00 pm

messiah wrote:
Kroos wrote:
messiah wrote:Is the German conveyor belt of talent, slowing down

how many from the current La Roja squad are allowed to play in this tournament

me thinks NOBODY

for germany

götze, kroos, draxler, gündogan, schürrle


i think the current U21 looks solid, 9 regular starters from die Bundesliga, + Holtby, + the Striker



and like i said, a very balanced team, every player knows his role

What what your saying is that you senior team players aren't that great, so you best young players have to be playing there, Very Happy. Sounds a bit like England Very Happy

While Spain are having their players developing nice and slow

I SEE WHAT YOU ARE DOING Laughing

but it`s true, but only the lack of a former world class generation has given our kids the opportunity to shine
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Luis

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by Luis on Wed Jun 05, 2013 8:02 pm

What a waste Shelvey is. He was class on football manager 2010 for me and I had high hopes but he has no discipline and is the definition of rash.
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Kroos

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by Kroos on Wed Jun 05, 2013 8:03 pm

Luis wrote:What a waste Shelvey is. He was class on football manager 2010 for me and I had high hopes but he has no discipline and is the definition of rash.

lol!
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bluenine

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by bluenine on Wed Jun 05, 2013 8:12 pm

England very lucky not to be a goal down... that was a definite penalty, the ref was just standing in the wrong place.
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Luis

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by Luis on Wed Jun 05, 2013 8:13 pm

Yeah should have been a pen.

I thought Borini was playing Surprised
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Pierre Littbarski

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by Pierre Littbarski on Wed Jun 05, 2013 8:22 pm

He has to bring Chalobah on so we can gain some control of the midfield.
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Fey

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by Fey on Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:10 pm

Omg Italy are 1-0 ahead. Who scored the 1-0?
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Pierre Littbarski

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by Pierre Littbarski on Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:12 pm

insigne
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Fey

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by Fey on Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:13 pm

Fuckin yes, he is my captain! I love this game.
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Murray

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by Murray on Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:34 pm

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Forza Italia!Forza Milan!

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by Forza Italia!Forza Milan! on Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:37 pm

cheers
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Kroos

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by Kroos on Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:38 pm

Insigne = 1,63 Laughing

he probably peaks in this tournament
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Fey

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by Fey on Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:41 pm

Kroos wrote:

clasie, van ginkel and strootman, looks good from the names, let`s see if feys hype was justified

Germany looks poor on names, but that never says anything.

As for Clasie, it appears he wont even start Sad

The coach says he aint training well and is most likely replaced by van Ginkel...I would love to play van Ginkel as well, but at the expense of Strootman not Clasie.

As for England, it's mental that a country 3 times as big as us, has so little talent when it comes to football players.
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Kroos

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by Kroos on Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:47 pm

Germany looks poor on names, but that never says anything.

you think? maybe you don`t know them Razz

many of them are already top performers for there clubs

rode
ginter
herrmann
leno
volland
sorg/jung
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Kroos

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by Kroos on Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:54 pm

i like the english sky experts

always searching for excuses

1st game
nervous

lol!
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bluenine

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by bluenine on Wed Jun 05, 2013 10:40 pm

Kroos wrote:Insigne = 1,63 Laughing

he probably peaks in this tournament

Around the same height as Diego Maradona. What's your point? Razz

Insigne is class. Was involved in almost every goal threat Italy created tonight.

Donati impressed me more than he ever has... he and Biraghi looked good. Couple of decent young fullbacks coming up for Inter... oh wait, Mazzarri doesn't have any need for fullbacks... fuck.

Bianchetti looked like the weak link in Inter's defense.. a shaky start by him. Caldirola started a bit nervous, but recovered as the game went on and was his commanding self. Bardi looked confident, but he didn't look 6'2"... he looked littler somehow. Watch out for this kid, future Azzurri keeper IMO.
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Kroos

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by Kroos on Thu Jun 06, 2013 6:46 am

is it true?

italys whole back 5 from yesterday (including the goalkeeper) are playing in the Serie B?

and for england almost everyone played championship

thats shocking, Germany should be able to exploit this


Around the same height as Diego Maradona. What's your point? lol!

omg whats going on in italy, there best technical players seem to be hobbits (veratti, insigne and the other guy ^^), serious when was the last time a hobbit has taken world football by storm Very Happy messi isn`t a hobbit, he is 1,69 Suspect

they will all get bullied off the field



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Romford Pele

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by Romford Pele on Thu Jun 06, 2013 8:11 am

Kimbo wrote:
Roman Aglennovich wrote:we have a lot of little brown wingers, that's about as good as it gets. Jack Wilshere flairy enough?

No, frankly.

Would've been a lot better last night if Zaha, Sterling and Ince were available. You could see all Pearce's tactics were was to absorb pressure and try and hit on the counter. But why Shaw wasn't starting is beyond me.

Anyway, all this is nothing new. England have very few players who know how to pass the ball, it's common knowledge. Henderson and Shelvey are both as bad as each other. The former gets rated more because he scores a few goals. But he has absolutely no clue how to control the pace of a game. Why Chalobah didn't start is beyond me. He's better than both of them.

There are no real flair CMs though. JW is the best of the lot. We have a couple in our reserves, hopefully they can make the breakthrough to the first team in a couple of years which will be good for England.
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Romford Pele

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by Romford Pele on Thu Jun 06, 2013 8:16 am

I really hope they don't give Pearce another contract and condemn us to another four years of this tripe. I'm sure someone like Hoddle could do a better job ok
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Romford Pele

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by Romford Pele on Thu Jun 06, 2013 8:18 am

Roman Aglennovich wrote:McEachren has a bit about him, Ross Barkley, Oxtail-Chambermaid, Nick Powell, Zaha, Sterling, Ibe, Ince. Wilshere's probably it though.

Those two would've been good use yesterday.
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Pierre Littbarski

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by Pierre Littbarski on Thu Jun 06, 2013 10:58 am

Shelvey is blessed with great vision and can hit a defence splitting pass - I saw him play for Charlton v Sheff Wed a few years back and he looked like a bald Totti but he is not that skilfull and seems to have a shit attitude based on his response to being subbed last night.

Henderson gets too much stick - he is two footed, does the basics well and is a decent athlete - should become a decent player with the right coaching.

Zaha is different to the other English wingers in that he does have some really great skills to go with his pace.

Chalobah is the best prospect we have though, more skilfull than Wilshere - little man skills in a big frame.

We often hear the word "technique" used when talking about English deficiences and that we can't pass.

I think it is a lack of skill rather than technique though i realise it can be difficult to define the two.

By technique I mean the way you strike through a ball for example - players like Gerrard and Lampard are good at this but they are not very skilfull.

By skilfull I mean close control or dribbling skills - this is what we really lack.

When you see a team like Barca/Spain playing keep ball there seem to be 3 main ingredients - 1. the ability to pass accurately, 2. the intelligence to know where to run after you have passed or want to receive pass, 3. skill/ball control even the best don't play one touch all the time sometimes you will receive the ball under pressure and you will need to throw a feint, do a dragback etc to get you away from your marker before you can pass.

IMO we lack 3,2,1 in that order - our players are ok purely at passing.

The last World Cup squad before the Premier League feautured Gascoigne, Beardsley, Waddle and Barnes.

There are many things that make a footballer (pace,, strength) but from a skill perspective there is no one in our current senior squad who can hold a candle to those 4.

Now bluenine/murray can maybe correct me on this as I was quite young but I would have said that Italy only had 2 players who were as talented as these 4 - Baggio and Giannini.

The Premier League is a great product but it has damaged the national team.

A premier League team can have a net spend of -£15m which goes on big, powerful, pacey players in their late 20's and you play perecentage football to stay in the league and it doesn't matter about your transfer defecit because you get £40m or whatever for staying up and this encourages short term thinking.

A Portuguese/Dutch team could never survive with this transfer policy because they don't have the TV money so they have to make a profit through the players - you do that by developing young, gifted players who can play "the right way" because these are the players who command big fees.

If a Premier League team played youth they would invariably make more mistakes as they are developing, these mistakes would cost you games and you could be bottom of the league in October as you make this transition - the pressure would build (as there is far more to lose from relegation than there is in any other country) and the manager who is bringing through the youth would be sacked or he would bring in more solid/experienced players to get them out of trouble.

That is a major part of the problem though you suspect that way down to about 8-10yo the coaching is not good enough - the problems are there way before Pearce/Hodgson get involved and there is only so much they can do.
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The Chosen Glenn

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by The Chosen Glenn on Thu Jun 06, 2013 11:03 am

nicely put
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Romford Pele

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by Romford Pele on Thu Jun 06, 2013 11:12 am

Pierre Littbarski wrote:Shelvey is blessed with great vision and can hit a defence splitting pass - I saw him play for Charlton v Sheff Wed a few years back and he looked like a bald Totti but he is not that skilfull and seems to have a shit attitude based on his response to being subbed last night.

Henderson gets too much stick - he is two footed, does the basics well and is a decent athlete - should become a decent player with the right coaching.

Zaha is different to the other English wingers in that he does have some really great skills to go with his pace.

Chalobah is the best prospect we have though, more skilfull than Wilshere - little man skills in a big frame.

We often hear the word "technique" used when talking about English deficiences and that we can't pass.

I think it is a lack of skill rather than technique though i realise it can be difficult to define the two.

By technique I mean the way you strike through a ball for example - players like Gerrard and Lampard are good at this but they are not very skilfull.

By skilfull I mean close control or dribbling skills - this is what we really lack.

When you see a team like Barca/Spain playing keep ball there seem to be 3 main ingredients - 1. the ability to pass accurately, 2. the intelligence to know where to run after you have passed or want to receive pass, 3. skill/ball control even the best don't play one touch all the time sometimes you will receive the ball under pressure and you will need to throw a feint, do a dragback etc to get you away from your marker before you can pass.

IMO we lack 3,2,1 in that order - our players are ok purely at passing.

The last World Cup squad before the Premier League feautured Gascoigne, Beardsley, Waddle and Barnes.

There are many things that make a footballer (pace,, strength) but from a skill perspective there is no one in our current senior squad who can hold a candle to those 4.

Now bluenine/murray can maybe correct me on this as I was quite young but I would have said that Italy only had 2 players who were as talented as these 4 - Baggio and Giannini.

The Premier League is a great product but it has damaged the national team.

A premier League team can have a net spend of -£15m which goes on big, powerful, pacey players in their late 20's and you play perecentage football to stay in the league and it doesn't matter about your transfer defecit because you get £40m or whatever for staying up and this encourages short term thinking.

A Portuguese/Dutch team could never survive with this transfer policy because they don't have the TV money so they have to make a profit through the players - you do that by developing young, gifted players who can play "the right way" because these are the players who command big fees.

If a Premier League team played youth they would invariably make more mistakes as they are developing, these mistakes would cost you games and you could be bottom of the league in October as you make this transition - the pressure would build (as there is far more to lose from relegation than there is in any other country) and the manager who is bringing through the youth would be sacked or he would bring in more solid/experienced players to get them out of trouble.

That is a major part of the problem though you suspect that way down to about 8-10yo the coaching is not good enough - the problems are there way before Pearce/Hodgson get involved and there is only so much they can do.

This more than anything is the main issue, but again, it's nothing new. And again you're right in saying that the problem is there before a manager's intervention, however, i'd argue that even with the right personnel, we'd be lacking severely under these managers.

110%

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by 110% on Thu Jun 06, 2013 11:31 am

Good post from Pierre. I haven't watched the England U21s but I did notice they won the 9 previous games without conceding a goal, so have they been awful all along, was it weak opposition, etc.

I also read that:
just 35 English under-21 players featured in the Premier League last season, the lowest since 2005.

Since then, the use of under-21 players in the top division has fallen from the highest of the big five European leagues at 10.33% to the lowest of the big five, at 4.45%. Manchester City, Chelsea, Swansea, Stoke and Wigan failed to field an English under-21 player all season while Arsenal played the highest percentage of English youngsters.


Arsenal saving English football Very Happy
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Romford Pele

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by Romford Pele on Thu Jun 06, 2013 11:42 am

110% wrote:Good post from Pierre. I haven't watched the England U21s but I did notice they won the 9 previous games without conceding a goal, so have they been awful all along, was it weak opposition, etc.

I also read that:
just 35 English under-21 players featured in the Premier League last season, the lowest since 2005.

Since then, the use of under-21 players in the top division has fallen from the highest of the big five European leagues at 10.33% to the lowest of the big five, at 4.45%. Manchester City, Chelsea, Swansea, Stoke and Wigan failed to field an English under-21 player all season while Arsenal played the highest percentage of English youngsters.


Arsenal saving English football Very Happy


Who would've thought Wink
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Deluded F*ck™

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by Deluded F*ck™ on Thu Jun 06, 2013 11:50 am

Personally I don't feel guilty as Spurs have also made a genuine effort with our youth; Caulker, Rose, Tom Carroll, Townsend, Adam Smith, all been good when given regular playing time.
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bluenine

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by bluenine on Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:07 pm

Pierre Littbarski wrote:Shelvey is blessed with great vision and can hit a defence splitting pass - I saw him play for Charlton v Sheff Wed a few years back and he looked like a bald Totti but he is not that skilfull and seems to have a shit attitude based on his response to being subbed last night.

Henderson gets too much stick - he is two footed, does the basics well and is a decent athlete - should become a decent player with the right coaching.

Zaha is different to the other English wingers in that he does have some really great skills to go with his pace.

Chalobah is the best prospect we have though, more skilfull than Wilshere - little man skills in a big frame.

We often hear the word "technique" used when talking about English deficiences and that we can't pass.

I think it is a lack of skill rather than technique though i realise it can be difficult to define the two.

By technique I mean the way you strike through a ball for example - players like Gerrard and Lampard are good at this but they are not very skilfull.

By skilfull I mean close control or dribbling skills - this is what we really lack.

When you see a team like Barca/Spain playing keep ball there seem to be 3 main ingredients - 1. the ability to pass accurately, 2. the intelligence to know where to run after you have passed or want to receive pass, 3. skill/ball control even the best don't play one touch all the time sometimes you will receive the ball under pressure and you will need to throw a feint, do a dragback etc to get you away from your marker before you can pass.

IMO we lack 3,2,1 in that order - our players are ok purely at passing.

The last World Cup squad before the Premier League feautured Gascoigne, Beardsley, Waddle and Barnes.

There are many things that make a footballer (pace,, strength) but from a skill perspective there is no one in our current senior squad who can hold a candle to those 4.

Now bluenine/murray can maybe correct me on this as I was quite young but I would have said that Italy only had 2 players who were as talented as these 4 - Baggio and Giannini.

The Premier League is a great product but it has damaged the national team.

A premier League team can have a net spend of -£15m which goes on big, powerful, pacey players in their late 20's and you play perecentage football to stay in the league and it doesn't matter about your transfer defecit because you get £40m or whatever for staying up and this encourages short term thinking.

A Portuguese/Dutch team could never survive with this transfer policy because they don't have the TV money so they have to make a profit through the players - you do that by developing young, gifted players who can play "the right way" because these are the players who command big fees.

If a Premier League team played youth they would invariably make more mistakes as they are developing, these mistakes would cost you games and you could be bottom of the league in October as you make this transition - the pressure would build (as there is far more to lose from relegation than there is in any other country) and the manager who is bringing through the youth would be sacked or he would bring in more solid/experienced players to get them out of trouble.

That is a major part of the problem though you suspect that way down to about 8-10yo the coaching is not good enough - the problems are there way before Pearce/Hodgson get involved and there is only so much they can do.

Good post, Pierre.

Re the comment on the 1990 WC, I would put Mancini and Donadoni also in that bracket from a skill perspective.

I think the blame is not just on the Premier League. Its the modern game where pace and strength is becoming more and more important. And the English game always relied more on things like pace than skill, when compared to nations like Brasil, Italy or Spain. Even in the late 80s & early 90s, when England did produce a few skillful players, countries like Brasil, Italy, Spain had more.

And its the same now. The skill level in Italy has also reduced as compared to the teams of 90s, and that is the impact of the modern game. The trequartista, the leader of such skillful players in Italy, is dying. There are fewer and fewer Baggio's, Del Piero's or Zola's in the game, and their quality is reducing. Italy always had 2-3 quality trequartisti to choose from, now the best one Prandelli can come up with is Diamanti! IMO the last great trequartista Italy produced was Totti, the well has dried up since then. Maybe Insigne or Saponara will change it, but even now you can tell that they don't have half the talent of a Baggio or a Totti.

Regarding the reducing number of English youth in the PL, well, IMO that was bound to happen. It happened in Italy in the 1990s, and now its happening here. The best place to develop youth is the 2nd division (Serie B or the Championship) where they can get regular minutes and develop under less pressure. If you look at the Azzurrini squad, you will find that almost all of them owe their development to Serie B.

Coming back to the U21 game, a friend of mine said something which kind of tells the story... "England kids played like... England".
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The Chosen Glenn

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by The Chosen Glenn on Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:26 pm

it's not necessarily the coaches, I'd say it's more the culture.

Coaching the youngest players is among the more sought after positions in the academy for coaches, at a certain age you become more of a babysitter so you'll always find that clubs put their best coaches in charge of their youngest age groups.

The problem as I see it, is that in order to keep their jobs these coaches must be successful on the pitch. Even at super youth level it's a results business, and short term success isn't found by developing skills and technique, it's found by picking the biggest, strongest boys in their age group and beasting opponents.

It's all well and good identifying this culture as the problem, but how do you remedy it? How else do you judge a coach if not by results? Wait 15 years and see how many of his 8 year olds are in the first team?
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Kroos

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by Kroos on Thu Jun 06, 2013 1:00 pm

german football education









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debaser

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by debaser on Thu Jun 06, 2013 1:08 pm

Pierre Littbarski wrote:If a Premier League team played youth they would invariably make more mistakes as they are developing, these mistakes would cost you games and you could be bottom of the league in October as you make this transition - the pressure would build (as there is far more to lose from relegation than there is in any other country) and the manager who is bringing through the youth would be sacked or he would bring in more solid/experienced players to get them out of trouble.

This is why everyone should be glad Villa survived without changing manager or resorting to panic buys in January. Ended the season with a team where only Guzan, Vlaar and Agbonlahor were over 23.

Not all the young players English of course, but Delph, Westwood, Baker, Lowton, Bennett all are. Not sure who - if any - of them will make international grade but at least they getting Premier League football and signs are Lambert will continue this strategy. Maybe other clubs will be more encouraged to risk younger players too as you can compare with QPR who went the other route and failed badly.

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

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