U-21 European Championship 2013

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110%

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by 110% on Thu Jun 06, 2013 1:12 pm

Roman Aglennovich wrote:it's not necessarily the coaches, I'd say it's more the culture.

Coaching the youngest players is among the more sought after positions in the academy for coaches, at a certain age you become more of a babysitter so you'll always find that clubs put their best coaches in charge of their youngest age groups.

The problem as I see it, is that in order to keep their jobs these coaches must be successful on the pitch. Even at super youth level it's a results business, and short term success isn't found by developing skills and technique, it's found by picking the biggest, strongest boys in their age group and beasting opponents.

It's all well and good identifying this culture as the problem, but how do you remedy it? How else do you judge a coach if not by results? Wait 15 years and see how many of his 8 year olds are in the first team?

I think someone did quote figures about the number of English UEFA-qualified coaches, and it was very much less than countries like spain and germany.

Not sure I agree with that in bold. I think coaches who are coaching the 8-12 year olds probably don't get much respect in England and are seen as baby-sitters so those coaches look at the position as a stepping stone to a better position, which comes about by their 8 year olds winning, meaning they might get to step up to 15 year olds then get them to win (ugly), next thing you know you're with the youth team, then reserve team coach before finally hitting the big time. And during all the years of your own development you only really learned that having big guys who could out-muscle the option won more often than not, and you're just about to find out that this doesn't apply at the highest level.

How to remedy it is indeed a problem. That's what they should copy from Germany, not their tactics, style etc.
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messiah

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by messiah on Thu Jun 06, 2013 1:42 pm

bluenine wrote:
Pierre Littbarski wrote:Shelvey is blessed with great vision and can hit a defence splitting pass - I saw him play for Charlton v Sheff Wed a few years back and he looked like a bald Totti but he is not that skilfull and seems to have a shit attitude based on his response to being subbed last night.

Henderson gets too much stick - he is two footed, does the basics well and is a decent athlete - should become a decent player with the right coaching.

Zaha is different to the other English wingers in that he does have some really great skills to go with his pace.

Chalobah is the best prospect we have though, more skilfull than Wilshere - little man skills in a big frame.

We often hear the word "technique" used when talking about English deficiences and that we can't pass.

I think it is a lack of skill rather than technique though i realise it can be difficult to define the two.

By technique I mean the way you strike through a ball for example - players like Gerrard and Lampard are good at this but they are not very skilfull.

By skilfull I mean close control or dribbling skills - this is what we really lack.

When you see a team like Barca/Spain playing keep ball there seem to be 3 main ingredients - 1. the ability to pass accurately, 2. the intelligence to know where to run after you have passed or want to receive pass, 3. skill/ball control even the best don't play one touch all the time sometimes you will receive the ball under pressure and you will need to throw a feint, do a dragback etc to get you away from your marker before you can pass.

IMO we lack 3,2,1 in that order - our players are ok purely at passing.

The last World Cup squad before the Premier League feautured Gascoigne, Beardsley, Waddle and Barnes.

There are many things that make a footballer (pace,, strength) but from a skill perspective there is no one in our current senior squad who can hold a candle to those 4.

Now bluenine/murray can maybe correct me on this as I was quite young but I would have said that Italy only had 2 players who were as talented as these 4 - Baggio and Giannini.

The Premier League is a great product but it has damaged the national team.

A premier League team can have a net spend of -£15m which goes on big, powerful, pacey players in their late 20's and you play perecentage football to stay in the league and it doesn't matter about your transfer defecit because you get £40m or whatever for staying up and this encourages short term thinking.

A Portuguese/Dutch team could never survive with this transfer policy because they don't have the TV money so they have to make a profit through the players - you do that by developing young, gifted players who can play "the right way" because these are the players who command big fees.

If a Premier League team played youth they would invariably make more mistakes as they are developing, these mistakes would cost you games and you could be bottom of the league in October as you make this transition - the pressure would build (as there is far more to lose from relegation than there is in any other country) and the manager who is bringing through the youth would be sacked or he would bring in more solid/experienced players to get them out of trouble.

That is a major part of the problem though you suspect that way down to about 8-10yo the coaching is not good enough - the problems are there way before Pearce/Hodgson get involved and there is only so much they can do.

Good post, Pierre.

Re the comment on the 1990 WC, I would put Mancini and Donadoni also in that bracket from a skill perspective.

I think the blame is not just on the Premier League. Its the modern game where pace and strength is becoming more and more important. And the English game always relied more on things like pace than skill, when compared to nations like Brasil, Italy or Spain. Even in the late 80s & early 90s, when England did produce a few skillful players, countries like Brasil, Italy, Spain had more.

And its the same now. The skill level in Italy has also reduced as compared to the teams of 90s, and that is the impact of the modern game. The trequartista, the leader of such skillful players in Italy, is dying. There are fewer and fewer Baggio's, Del Piero's or Zola's in the game, and their quality is reducing. Italy always had 2-3 quality trequartisti to choose from, now the best one Prandelli can come up with is Diamanti! IMO the last great trequartista Italy produced was Totti, the well has dried up since then. Maybe Insigne or Saponara will change it, but even now you can tell that they don't have half the talent of a Baggio or a Totti.

Regarding the reducing number of English youth in the PL, well, IMO that was bound to happen. It happened in Italy in the 1990s, and now its happening here. The best place to develop youth is the 2nd division (Serie B or the Championship) where they can get regular minutes and develop under less pressure. If you look at the Azzurrini squad, you will find that almost all of them owe their development to Serie B.

Coming back to the U21 game, a friend of mine said something which kind of tells the story... "England kids played like... England".

I don't think the modern game is to be blame actually, when I say modern I mean what is happening today, the pace and strength game was something that was happening 5-6 years ago, with the rafa's and Jose's in the Prem.

Today's game is actually trying to bring back skill and technique, you know this is the case when even the germans are doing so.

The modern game as it is today, is more about the 1)collective, 2) skill and technique 3) fitness(as a result of pressing).

But I agree with the rest.

For me the English problem is more about coaching, both the senior team and the u21 are really playing football that no one else plays these days and not in a good way.

add to that their refusal to risk on the more "skillful" players in their teams, because the are afraid of losing and you get the problem right away.

If we were to name the best English coach when compared to their European counterparts we would see the real problem.

Pearce and hodson just aren't modern enough.
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Kimbo

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by Kimbo on Thu Jun 06, 2013 4:00 pm

Pierre Littbarski wrote:The last World Cup squad before the Premier League feautured Gascoigne, Beardsley, Waddle and Barnes.

I think in a roundabout way Pierre is saying St Georges Park should have been built in the north east(or Jamaica).
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messiah

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by messiah on Thu Jun 06, 2013 4:24 pm

Spain; De Gea(GK) Montoya Bartra Iñigo Martínez Moreno Illarramendi Thiago Alcántara(C) Isco Rodrigo Tello,muniain

Russia; Zabolotni(GK) Schennikov Chicherin Burlak(C) Belyaev Tsallagov Petrov Shatov Bibilov Yakovlev
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messiah

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by messiah on Thu Jun 06, 2013 4:27 pm

So he goes with Montoya and not Mr. Madrid and both thiago and Illarramendi

-------------de gea

--montoya---bartra---martinez---moreno

---------Illarramendi---thiago

----muni--------isco------tello

---------------rodrigo
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bluenine

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by bluenine on Thu Jun 06, 2013 5:23 pm

messiah wrote:So he goes with Montoya and not Mr. Madrid and both thiago and Illarramendi

-------------de gea

--montoya---bartra---martinez---moreno

---------Illarramendi---thiago

----muni--------isco------tello

---------------rodrigo

That's a very strong team Spain have come with... surprised to see Isco here, shouldn't he be in the confed squad?
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messiah

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by messiah on Thu Jun 06, 2013 5:30 pm

bluenine wrote:
messiah wrote:So he goes with Montoya and not Mr. Madrid and both thiago and Illarramendi

-------------de gea

--montoya---bartra---martinez---moreno

---------Illarramendi---thiago

----muni--------isco------tello

---------------rodrigo

That's a very strong team Spain have come with... surprised to see Isco here, shouldn't he be in the confed squad?

Based on last season performances he,Martinez and Illarramendi, but as I was saying to kroos, Spain are allowing the next generation to develop nice and slow.
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messiah

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by messiah on Thu Jun 06, 2013 6:08 pm

Illarramendi has been class, but the team has been disjointed, needs a true dm
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messiah

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by messiah on Thu Jun 06, 2013 6:20 pm

isco and thiago have arrived
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messiah

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by messiah on Thu Jun 06, 2013 6:42 pm

Would love to see a isco thiago midfield for barca, isco = iniesta, thiago = deco
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The Chosen Glenn

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by The Chosen Glenn on Thu Jun 06, 2013 6:43 pm

all the ways you might expect Spain to take the lead in this game, that had to be at the bottom of the list. Pulis-esque
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messiah

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by messiah on Thu Jun 06, 2013 6:57 pm

Netherlands: Zoet, Van Rhijn, De Vrij, Martins Indi, Blind, Strootman, Maher, Van Ginkel, Luuk de Jong, John, Wijnaldum

Germany: Leno, Jantschke, Thesker, Ginter, Sorg, Rudy, Rode, Holtby, Herrmann, Mlapa, Lasogga
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messiah

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by messiah on Thu Jun 06, 2013 6:59 pm

Tello was crap muni has been having a tough time this year, I would play morata and canales or koke and push isco wide
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The Chosen Glenn

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by The Chosen Glenn on Thu Jun 06, 2013 7:22 pm

Oooh! 10 of the Germany team are actual Germans! Is this a record in the modern era?
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messiah

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by messiah on Thu Jun 06, 2013 7:58 pm

Holland look goood
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messiah

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by messiah on Thu Jun 06, 2013 8:10 pm

Great goal by whoever his name is.
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messiah

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by messiah on Thu Jun 06, 2013 8:11 pm

Wijnaldum is the name
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Kroos

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by Kroos on Thu Jun 06, 2013 8:29 pm

facking hell what to expect when holtby is there best PLAYER, says it really all

none of them will ever play for the A- TEAM
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Kroos

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by Kroos on Thu Jun 06, 2013 8:36 pm

GAME ON
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Kroos

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by Kroos on Thu Jun 06, 2013 8:53 pm

volland should have started

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Kroos

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by Kroos on Thu Jun 06, 2013 9:13 pm

HOLTBY

still not good enough for the A - TEAM Laughing

but overall i am pleased with the 2nd half performance

lassoga and mlapa, big strong tall and SHIT, we played with 8 field players in the first half
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Kroos

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by Kroos on Thu Jun 06, 2013 9:19 pm

ENDGAME vs. SPAIN

at least some tension in the summer break
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Fey

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by Fey on Thu Jun 06, 2013 9:33 pm

lol!

Outgerman the Germans is always nice.

Still, it was downright poor from what I've seen from the 2nd half. Heard the 1st half on the radio, and it sounded like a proper goalocaust was coming. The 2nd half Holland got totally overrun, and im pretty pissed Clasie didnt even got a minute. And now that Fer outmuscled the German defense, I think his chances to start are declining. Never mind how shite Strootman was again, he will always start.

Now I think with such poor wingers and striker, we need to play 442.
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The Chosen Glenn

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by The Chosen Glenn on Thu Jun 06, 2013 10:22 pm

the Sky commentator seemed to think that this Holland side would make up the core of the World Cup squad. How true is that?

German keeper made a real mess of the first goal.
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Fey

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by Fey on Thu Jun 06, 2013 10:46 pm

Yup...

This is basically our squad for Brasil. van Rhijn, de Vrij, BMI, Blind, Clasie, Strootman, van Ginkel, Maher (John) are all expected to make the final cut.

The Germans were terrified at the end, and rightly so, wouldnt trust those showers myself either.
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The Chosen Glenn

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by The Chosen Glenn on Thu Jun 06, 2013 11:03 pm

England will probably still have Gerrard and Lampard in Brazil pale
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bluenine

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by bluenine on Fri Jun 07, 2013 12:11 am

We might as well skip the rest of the group phase and go directly to the semis:

Italy vs Holland
Spain vs DoesNotMata

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Kroos

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by Kroos on Fri Jun 07, 2013 6:58 am

germany will beat spain
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bluenine

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by bluenine on Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:08 am

Kroos wrote:germany will beat spain

You definitely don't lack confidence, mate. I think Germany will find it very hard against Spain, your best bet is that Russia beating Holland and you guys getting at least a point against Spain.

For the Azzurrini, I would prefer Germany in the semis to Holland or Spain... but I don't see that happening.
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Kroos

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Re: U-21 European Championship 2013

Post by Kroos on Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:17 am

no one can say how strong russia is, or will holland be the best team!!!! only time will tell

of course, spain has from the individuall skill the best team

it`s a clash of styles (like the A-Teams), our midfield has to press them high, like bayern did against barca Very Happy

the way germany played in the 2nd half, thats there real FACE, our coach messed it up again, fielding 2 shit players upfront


btw: germany will play spain on sunday, so your plan won`t work Wink

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