Dearth of Deep Lying Playmakers?

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bluenine

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Dearth of Deep Lying Playmakers?

Post by bluenine on Mon Jan 28, 2013 12:08 pm

I was just wondering, who are the best DLP's or quality CMs/midfield directors in each league?

There seems to be a dearth of such players in Serie A.... there are a few good ones, Pirlo, Valero, Cigarini... you could count them on your fingers. There seem to be more and more of the physical midfielders, the destroyers, who can't pass or keep the ball, or dictate the pace.

Is this a modern phenomenon, or is this a Serie A specific problem. I am more keen to hear names from La Liga, they usually have loads of such players...
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messiah

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Re: Dearth of Deep Lying Playmakers?

Post by messiah on Mon Jan 28, 2013 12:11 pm

Fade out made a tread about this after the euros, in the international trend
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messiah

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Re: Dearth of Deep Lying Playmakers?

Post by messiah on Mon Jan 28, 2013 12:23 pm

In la liga the dlp are still in vogue, just the top 6 teams in la liga

Madrid: Alonso
Atletico: gabi not a pure one but he tries to do the same thing
Valencia: gago
Betis: benat

Malaga plus with two dmeds more that a dlp and some would say busquets plays that role for barca
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Re: Dearth of Deep Lying Playmakers?

Post by Kroos on Mon Jan 28, 2013 2:13 pm

schweinsteiger, kroos, gündogan, sahin

thats it

all others either destroyers or box to box
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Re: Dearth of Deep Lying Playmakers?

Post by Jaime on Mon Jan 28, 2013 2:17 pm

messiah wrote:In la liga the dlp are still in vogue, just the top 6 teams in la liga

Madrid: Alonso
Atletico: gabi not a pure one but he tries to do the same thing
Valencia: gago Banega
Betis: benat

Malaga plus with two dmeds more that a dlp and some would say busquets plays that role for barca

Real Sociedad have also started to give the reigns to Ruben Pardo who is in the DLP mold. Still just a kid but could go on to big things. Sometimes Ander Herrera from Athletic plays in a much deeper role, as does Sergio Tejera from Mallorca even though I suppose both of those players are technically attacking midfielders. From the smaller clubs I think Borja Oubiña (Celta) also falls into this category and probably now in his career Roberto Trashorras (Rayo).

I also think of Arteta.
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Re: Dearth of Deep Lying Playmakers?

Post by Fey on Mon Jan 28, 2013 2:20 pm

Well it's truth that the BDM(black defensive midfielder) nearly brought the DLP to extinction, especially around the mid 00's. However, since mankind brought negative tactics, and an unfaithful love of everthing black/african to a standstill, we can see that the DLP numbers are on a rise again, and actually florish all over the vast grasslands that conquer the European mainland in all it's glory on a saturday or sunday. But that doesnt go for the whole of Europe. There is a fairly tiny island, where the DLP is still considered a pest. Especially in the North-east and North-west of that island.
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blutgraetsche

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Re: Dearth of Deep Lying Playmakers?

Post by blutgraetsche on Mon Jan 28, 2013 3:21 pm

Kroos wrote:schweinsteiger, kroos, gündogan, sahin

thats it

all others either destroyers or box to box

Don't think that Kroos fits the DLP criteria. He plays further up the pitch and is most effective there. More of a 'traditional' playmaker.

Gündogan, Sahin and Schweinsteiger are good examples, especially Gündogan. You could probably add Neustädter to the list, due to his range of passing, even if he isn't a real 'playmaker' either. Holtby played in a deeper position a number of times, he could fit that bill.

There are quite a few central midfielders in the league who are good passers, but I wouldn't call them DLP either. "Playmaker" is a relative term in modern football anyway, since the creative burden is shared by many (ideally all) players. You could call Hummels a 'playmaker', for example (very deep lying playmaker? (VDLP), his passing range is as good as it gets and his contribution probably as important as that of the midfielders.
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Re: Dearth of Deep Lying Playmakers?

Post by Super Progress on Mon Jan 28, 2013 3:27 pm

Dearth of Deep Lying Playmakers?
Hopefully Whistle
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Re: Dearth of Deep Lying Playmakers?

Post by Axeslammer on Mon Jan 28, 2013 5:10 pm

Ajax's Christian Eriksen (although he doesn't play in that position) is a complete natural for the "Pirlo-role" ok
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Re: Dearth of Deep Lying Playmakers?

Post by bluenine on Mon Jan 28, 2013 5:22 pm

Inter are in desperate need of a DLP... are any of them available, what kind of transfer fee do you think someone like Gündogan or Benat will command? Probably out of our price range, and anyways why would anyone want to leave Dortmund for Inter these days...
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Re: Dearth of Deep Lying Playmakers?

Post by Jaime on Mon Jan 28, 2013 5:33 pm

Beñat has a buyout clause of 20m I think. Athletic Bilbao supposedly made a 10m euro bid that was rejected by Betis as they were trying to find a replacement for Javi Martinez last summer.
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Re: Dearth of Deep Lying Playmakers?

Post by blutgraetsche on Mon Jan 28, 2013 5:39 pm

Gündogan is Dortmund's most important player this season (see BVB thread) and hence not for sale. Inter should have signed Sahin when he was available for a modest sum.
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messiah

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Re: Dearth of Deep Lying Playmakers?

Post by messiah on Mon Jan 28, 2013 5:56 pm

Inter should try and sign j,dos Santos of us, he will never be wc but will be a very accomplished player that's goes on to have a good career, problem is that he does want to leave, sevilla and atletico Madrid have tried for him, but he has rejected them both.
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Re: Dearth of Deep Lying Playmakers?

Post by Kroos on Mon Jan 28, 2013 7:03 pm

blutgraetsche wrote:
Kroos wrote:schweinsteiger, kroos, gündogan, sahin

thats it

all others either destroyers or box to box

Don't think that Kroos fits the DLP criteria. He plays further up the pitch and is most effective there. More of a 'traditional' playmaker.



still think thats his best position in the future, the way that he interpret his role for bayern is far away from a pure 10, i think his tactical awareness is awesome, also his defensive skills for an 23 year old allrounder

holtby could become a DLP, now on his way to tottenham Sad neustädter is a good call, his passing was awesome in 2012, but like almost any schalke player he sucks these days

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Re: Dearth of Deep Lying Playmakers?

Post by Kroos on Mon Jan 28, 2013 7:09 pm

bluenine wrote:Inter are in desperate need of a DLP... are any of them available, what kind of transfer fee do you think someone like Gündogan or Benat will command? Probably out of our price range, and anyways why would anyone want to leave Dortmund for Inter these days...

gündogan is absolute quality, would fit into any side in the world, his passing, ball control, vision omg he has become such a player, he is everything doing with ease, after özil the most elegant player for germany
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Re: Dearth of Deep Lying Playmakers?

Post by Isco Benny on Mon Jan 28, 2013 7:28 pm

Kroos wrote:
blutgraetsche wrote:
Kroos wrote:schweinsteiger, kroos, gündogan, sahin

thats it

all others either destroyers or box to box

Don't think that Kroos fits the DLP criteria. He plays further up the pitch and is most effective there. More of a 'traditional' playmaker.



still think thats his best position in the future, the way that he interpret his role for bayern is far away from a pure 10, i think his tactical awareness is awesome, also his defensive skills for an 23 year old allrounder

holtby could become a DLP, now on his way to tottenham Sad neustädter is a good call, his passing was awesome in 2012, but like almost any schalke player he sucks these days


Holtby will almost certainly play as an attacking creative number 10 at Tottenham, similar role to what Van Der Vaart had here but will be expected to work harder off the ball than his Dutch compatriot did under Redknapp.

Although England had traditionally favoured the Jack of all trades but master of none box-to-box midfielders, not to say DLPs dont exist.

There is Wilshere, Arteta, Carrick, Britton, Dembele - once upon a time Huddlestone was an excellent one until his year long injury has now rendered him ridiculously fat and immobile. Modric was one of the best in Europe two seasons ago. The more teams using the double pivot, the more we will likely see deeper creative players being used.

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Re: Dearth of Deep Lying Playmakers?

Post by blutgraetsche on Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:40 pm

Kroos wrote:
blutgraetsche wrote:
Kroos wrote:schweinsteiger, kroos, gündogan, sahin

thats it

all others either destroyers or box to box

Don't think that Kroos fits the DLP criteria. He plays further up the pitch and is most effective there. More of a 'traditional' playmaker.



still think thats his best position in the future, the way that he interpret his role for bayern is far away from a pure 10, i think his tactical awareness is awesome, also his defensive skills for an 23 year old allrounder

holtby could become a DLP, now on his way to tottenham Sad neustädter is a good call, his passing was awesome in 2012, but like almost any schalke player he sucks these days


I agree that Kroos' is not a traditional #10 either, his ideal position is somewhere between #8 and #10, similar to Xavi. But he isn't a DLP (#6) imho. He is an excellent passer, but not on the longer range ones, at least I haven't seen it often from him. He loves the short passing game and would fit instantly into the Spanish NT, for example. For a DLP, he'd need to add more variety to his passing game, the ability to dictate and change the tempo of the game, something Pirlo has perfected to an art form. Passing triangles are fine, but once in a while a well timed long ball won't hurt. Kroos would have to add a bit of Alonso to his Xaviesque game.
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Re: Dearth of Deep Lying Playmakers?

Post by Deluded F*ck™ on Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:53 pm

Fey wrote:Well it's truth that the BDM(black defensive midfielder) nearly brought the DLP to extinction, especially around the mid 00's. However, since mankind brought negative tactics, and an unfaithful love of everthing black/african to a standstill, we can see that the DLP numbers are on a rise again, and actually florish all over the vast grasslands that conquer the European mainland in all it's glory on a saturday or sunday. But that doesnt go for the whole of Europe. There is a fairly tiny island, where the DLP is still considered a pest. Especially in the North-east and North-west of that island.

You are celebrating too early Fey The DLP will always remain an endangered species and the false imitation of the DLP (I call them WWP - Weak White Playmaker - prime example Joe Allen) only serves to do them more harm, like a Grey squirrel did to the poor Red squirrel.

The QBDM (Quality black Defensive Midfielder) is on the rise and on the march again - after years of searching for worthy successors to Patrick Vieira there is now the likes of Yaya, Dembele & Alex Song. They are here to stay!
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Re: Dearth of Deep Lying Playmakers?

Post by Fey on Tue Jan 29, 2013 3:02 am

Deluded F*ck™ wrote:
Fey wrote:Well it's truth that the BDM(black defensive midfielder) nearly brought the DLP to extinction, especially around the mid 00's. However, since mankind brought negative tactics, and an unfaithful love of everthing black/african to a standstill, we can see that the DLP numbers are on a rise again, and actually florish all over the vast grasslands that conquer the European mainland in all it's glory on a saturday or sunday. But that doesnt go for the whole of Europe. There is a fairly tiny island, where the DLP is still considered a pest. Especially in the North-east and North-west of that island.

You are celebrating too early Fey The DLP will always remain an endangered species and the false imitation of the DLP (I call them WWP - Weak White Playmaker - prime example Joe Allen) only serves to do them more harm, like a Grey squirrel did to the poor Red squirrel.

The QBDM (Quality black Defensive Midfielder) is on the rise and on the march again - after years of searching for worthy successors to Patrick Vieira there is now the likes of Yaya, Dembele & Alex Song. They are here to stay!

Laughing

You could not be more wrong though, my dearest. What you are forgetting is that without grey squirrels, red squirrels are able to evolve! Like the grey squirrel, the BDM is only a pest on that tiny island called Britain. On the mainland red Squirrels/LWL(I call them Little White Leaders, pocketsize footballers with a bite-like Clasie) are florishing, because these days it's getting more and more frowned upon to import a Grey Squirrel. And if that happens it get's sold to that Grey Squirrel infested island.

Do red Squirrels have a future then on the Island? Yes, when a red squirrel is living in a protected habitat, it can absolutely suprise the native people, and show them how good the past was without that bulky Grey Squirrel, like Cleverley a fine LWL and a good example that the red Squirrel still has a future in Britain.
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Re: Dearth of Deep Lying Playmakers?

Post by Fey on Tue Jan 29, 2013 3:35 am

Axeslammer wrote:Ajax's Christian Eriksen (although he doesn't play in that position) is a complete natural for the "Pirlo-role"

It's theoretical, however I get the idea that when an Attacking midfielder doesnt score enough goals, people assume he should play in the "Pirlo-role" Eriksen has totally not the ability for that cause he lacks the workrate that Pirlo has(bar an outstanding midfielder, people forget how much dirty work he does)

If you look to the Eredivisie only we have a DLP.

PSV: Strootman/van Bommel-box2box/destroyer
Ajax: Poulsen: destroyer
Twente: Fer/Brama-box2box/destroyer
Feyenoord: Clasie-DLP



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Re: Dearth of Deep Lying Playmakers?

Post by blutgraetsche on Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:23 am

I have another player to add to the list: Moritz Leitner.

Unsurprisingly, another Dortmund player, which shows that if anything, the DLP is having a renaissance and not going extinct, knowing that Dortmund are pretty much cutting edge tactically these days, as are Juve, for example. Leitner was more of a traditional playmaker also when he joined Dortmund, but Klopp moved him to a deeper position, similar to what he did with Gündogan and Sahin before. Still young and a bit raw on the edges, but talent wise up there with the best of them.

So the bottom line is that a DLP can be formed, it's not like a player has to play on that position all his life. Even Pirlo started his career as a more traditional #10.
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Re: Dearth of Deep Lying Playmakers?

Post by Kroos on Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:59 am

yeah germany is pleased with a lot of midfield talent, and thank god it seems that the midfield area will be the most important area in the future
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Re: Dearth of Deep Lying Playmakers?

Post by Deluded F*ck™ on Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:09 am

Fey wrote:
Deluded F*ck™ wrote:
Fey wrote:Well it's truth that the BDM(black defensive midfielder) nearly brought the DLP to extinction, especially around the mid 00's. However, since mankind brought negative tactics, and an unfaithful love of everthing black/african to a standstill, we can see that the DLP numbers are on a rise again, and actually florish all over the vast grasslands that conquer the European mainland in all it's glory on a saturday or sunday. But that doesnt go for the whole of Europe. There is a fairly tiny island, where the DLP is still considered a pest. Especially in the North-east and North-west of that island.

You are celebrating too early Fey The DLP will always remain an endangered species and the false imitation of the DLP (I call them WWP - Weak White Playmaker - prime example Joe Allen) only serves to do them more harm, like a Grey squirrel did to the poor Red squirrel.

The QBDM (Quality black Defensive Midfielder) is on the rise and on the march again - after years of searching for worthy successors to Patrick Vieira there is now the likes of Yaya, Dembele & Alex Song. They are here to stay!

Laughing

You could not be more wrong though, my dearest. What you are forgetting is that without grey squirrels, red squirrels are able to evolve! Like the grey squirrel, the BDM is only a pest on that tiny island called Britain. On the mainland red Squirrels/LWL(I call them Little White Leaders, pocketsize footballers with a bite-like Clasie) are florishing, because these days it's getting more and more frowned upon to import a Grey Squirrel. And if that happens it get's sold to that Grey Squirrel infested island.

Do red Squirrels have a future then on the Island? Yes, when a red squirrel is living in a protected habitat, it can absolutely suprise the native people, and show them how good the past was without that bulky Grey Squirrel, like Cleverley a fine LWL and a good example that the red Squirrel still has a future in Britain.

lol! In tears. (none for Piers)

The Grey Squirrel is already on the mainland, spread all throughout France and New FrenchGeordieLand (formerly known as Newcastle), and the high tax on their acorns and nuts will make sure that they continue to spread throughout Europe.

Heck even the owners of the biggest red squirrel hotspots (Barca/Spain) will always need to import. Why? Because someone has to protect the nest if an invasion happens! WWP carry a white flag in their socks at all times and always want QBDM help in times of bad harvest! But sometimes the QBDM's body can't fight all the time because of injury (Essien).

There will always be a place for the red squirrel, it's prettier to look at and reminds people of the good old days, but they need artificial protection, because if it were left up to natural selection the Grey Squirrel would rule the roost!
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Kimbo

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Re: Dearth of Deep Lying Playmakers?

Post by Kimbo on Tue Jan 29, 2013 1:19 pm

This may not be the point but we still have wild red squirrels up here.

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Re: Dearth of Deep Lying Playmakers?

Post by 110% on Tue Jan 29, 2013 2:16 pm

I don't really agree with the first post.

I think there are more physical midfielders out there who can pass the ball, e.g. yaya toure, dembele, fellani, martinez etc. The playmakers are still out there but they changed their roles, because they don't have the gattuso's out there whose only job is to get the ball back. Modern midfielders tend to be have more all-round ability, especially if you look at the top sides like spain, germany, brasil etc. Personally I think the facking runners are being phased out so it makes the DLP role less important. Possession has always been a team goal, rather than reliant on an individual, and creativity also comes from a number of players not just a single playmaker (who can be marked out of a game). Of course you still need central midfielders who can keep possession, but this tends to be the carrick, busquets type whose job is to pass it on to more able players to create something.

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Re: Dearth of Deep Lying Playmakers?

Post by Jaime on Tue Jan 29, 2013 2:16 pm

Deluded F*ck™ wrote:
Fey wrote:
Deluded F*ck™ wrote:
Fey wrote:Well it's truth that the BDM(black defensive midfielder) nearly brought the DLP to extinction, especially around the mid 00's. However, since mankind brought negative tactics, and an unfaithful love of everthing black/african to a standstill, we can see that the DLP numbers are on a rise again, and actually florish all over the vast grasslands that conquer the European mainland in all it's glory on a saturday or sunday. But that doesnt go for the whole of Europe. There is a fairly tiny island, where the DLP is still considered a pest. Especially in the North-east and North-west of that island.

You are celebrating too early Fey The DLP will always remain an endangered species and the false imitation of the DLP (I call them WWP - Weak White Playmaker - prime example Joe Allen) only serves to do them more harm, like a Grey squirrel did to the poor Red squirrel.

The QBDM (Quality black Defensive Midfielder) is on the rise and on the march again - after years of searching for worthy successors to Patrick Vieira there is now the likes of Yaya, Dembele & Alex Song. They are here to stay!

Laughing

You could not be more wrong though, my dearest. What you are forgetting is that without grey squirrels, red squirrels are able to evolve! Like the grey squirrel, the BDM is only a pest on that tiny island called Britain. On the mainland red Squirrels/LWL(I call them Little White Leaders, pocketsize footballers with a bite-like Clasie) are florishing, because these days it's getting more and more frowned upon to import a Grey Squirrel. And if that happens it get's sold to that Grey Squirrel infested island.

Do red Squirrels have a future then on the Island? Yes, when a red squirrel is living in a protected habitat, it can absolutely suprise the native people, and show them how good the past was without that bulky Grey Squirrel, like Cleverley a fine LWL and a good example that the red Squirrel still has a future in Britain.

lol! In tears. (none for Piers)

The Grey Squirrel is already on the mainland, spread all throughout France and New FrenchGeordieLand (formerly known as Newcastle), and the high tax on their acorns and nuts will make sure that they continue to spread throughout Europe.

Heck even the owners of the biggest red squirrel hotspots (Barca/Spain) will always need to import. Why? Because someone has to protect the nest if an invasion happens! WWP carry a white flag in their socks at all times and always want QBDM help in times of bad harvest! But sometimes the QBDM's body can't fight all the time because of injury (Essien).

There will always be a place for the red squirrel, it's prettier to look at and reminds people of the good old days, but they need artificial protection, because if it were left up to natural selection the Grey Squirrel would rule the roost!

lol!
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Re: Dearth of Deep Lying Playmakers?

Post by bluenine on Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:01 am

Inter just bought 18 yr old Croat, Kovacic for 11m + 4m bonuses to play this role - hyped as the new Modric. This is going to be interesting.
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Re: Dearth of Deep Lying Playmakers?

Post by Jaime on Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:52 am

bluenine wrote:Inter just bought 18 yr old Croat, Kovacic for 11m + 4m bonuses to play this role - hyped as the new Modric. This is going to be interesting.

He was pretty good when we played Dinamo in the CL last year or the year before. I think he was only 18 then. Will be under a lot more pressure at Inter of course. But from the two times I saw him he looked the part.
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bluenine

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Re: Dearth of Deep Lying Playmakers?

Post by bluenine on Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:48 am

Jaime wrote:
bluenine wrote:Inter just bought 18 yr old Croat, Kovacic for 11m + 4m bonuses to play this role - hyped as the new Modric. This is going to be interesting.

He was pretty good when we played Dinamo in the CL last year or the year before. I think he was only 18 then. Will be under a lot more pressure at Inter of course. But from the two times I saw him he looked the part.

Didn't see that one, but he was 17 then... I did see him against PSG this season, and he looked good. But its one thing to look good when you have no chance of winning, and quite another to play well for a team which expects to win.

Hope he works out for us, we desperately need a player like him. Also, we have blown most of our transfer budget on him!

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