The Dark Arts of Barca

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EMP

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The Dark Arts of Barca

Post by EMP on Sun Mar 24, 2013 5:20 pm

Whether you agree or not this is certainly an interesting article, suggesting that Barca tactically foul and in terms of possession considerably more than their opponents and in the opposition half to prevent counter-attacks. Would be interesting to compare these statistics for the games of other teams, such as the Madrid clubs. Is this the cynical side of Barca's game?

http://footballspeak.com/post/2012/04/19/Barca-The-Dark-Arts.aspx
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messiah

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Re: The Dark Arts of Barca

Post by messiah on Sun Mar 24, 2013 6:20 pm

Nothing we didn't know already
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EMP

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Re: The Dark Arts of Barca

Post by EMP on Sun Mar 24, 2013 7:26 pm

messiah wrote:Nothing we didn't know already

So you admit that you know that Barca's success is built as much on cynical fouling as free-flowing attacking football and that the latter could not occur without the former.
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Super Progress

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Re: The Dark Arts of Barca

Post by Super Progress on Sun Mar 24, 2013 7:28 pm

I think Sid Lowe pointed this out a couple of years ago. Of course we rarely hear this part of the Mes Que Un ClubTM story.

Barcelona is hypocritical.

What else is new?

affraid
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EMP

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Re: The Dark Arts of Barca

Post by EMP on Sun Mar 24, 2013 9:00 pm

Super Mourinho wrote:I think Sid Lowe pointed this out a couple of years ago. Of course we rarely hear this part of the Mes Que Un ClubTM story.

Barcelona is hypocritical.

What else is new?

affraid

The analysis behind it is new. He has researched it well for an 11,000 word assignment. It is a well balanced assessment from a coach with no axe to grind. He isn't even knocking Barca. It would be interesting to see how this applies to other clubs that try to emulate Barca's game. I doubt that they would be as good at it. It is also interesting how much they complain about other teams constantly fouling them (especially Messi) when they use such a cynical tactic and proportionately to possession outfoul their opponents. The one flaw I see in this is that he does not seem to have allowed for the possibility of offensive fouls - i.e. when attacking to keep possession such as pushing the defender out of the way, etc. Would be interesting to see if that skews his analysis. Nevertheless, as far as his analysis is correct and few seem to dispute it, how is that type of cynical pre-emptive fouling is this different from a professional foul? It suggests a deliberate and tactical use of fouling to prevent potential goal-scoring opportunities. Why is that not a professional foul?
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debaser

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Re: The Dark Arts of Barca

Post by debaser on Sun Mar 24, 2013 9:37 pm

EMP wrote: Nevertheless, as far as his analysis is correct and few seem to dispute it, how is that type of cynical pre-emptive fouling is this different from a professional foul? It suggests a deliberate and tactical use of fouling to prevent potential goal-scoring opportunities. Why is that not a professional foul?

any foul on the pitch could potentially stop a goalscoring opportunity. But you gotta draw a line somewhere and say that a foul far away from the goal is just a foul, cynical as it may be. Should be a booking - a question for the analysis would be whether they get enough bookings for this type of foul. Often you notice big teams get away with more yellow-card fouls without booking, which enables them to repeat.
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bluenine

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Re: The Dark Arts of Barca

Post by bluenine on Sun Mar 24, 2013 9:44 pm

EMP wrote:Whether you agree or not this is certainly an interesting article, suggesting that Barca tactically foul and in terms of possession considerably more than their opponents and in the opposition half to prevent counter-attacks. Would be interesting to compare these statistics for the games of other teams, such as the Madrid clubs. Is this the cynical side of Barca's game?

http://footballspeak.com/post/2012/04/19/Barca-The-Dark-Arts.aspx

Great to see someone quoting my website here Wink
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EMP

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Re: The Dark Arts of Barca

Post by EMP on Sun Mar 24, 2013 10:19 pm

bluenine wrote:
EMP wrote:Whether you agree or not this is certainly an interesting article, suggesting that Barca tactically foul and in terms of possession considerably more than their opponents and in the opposition half to prevent counter-attacks. Would be interesting to compare these statistics for the games of other teams, such as the Madrid clubs. Is this the cynical side of Barca's game?

http://footballspeak.com/post/2012/04/19/Barca-The-Dark-Arts.aspx

Great to see someone quoting my website here Wink

You're welcome, but I'm selective over which articles. Wouldn't dream of quoting one of your's, for example. Wink
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EMP

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Re: The Dark Arts of Barca

Post by EMP on Sun Mar 24, 2013 10:27 pm

debaser wrote:
EMP wrote: Nevertheless, as far as his analysis is correct and few seem to dispute it, how is that type of cynical pre-emptive fouling is this different from a professional foul? It suggests a deliberate and tactical use of fouling to prevent potential goal-scoring opportunities. Why is that not a professional foul?

any foul on the pitch could potentially stop a goalscoring opportunity. But you gotta draw a line somewhere and say that a foul far away from the goal is just a foul, cynical as it may be. Should be a booking - a question for the analysis would be whether they get enough bookings for this type of foul. Often you notice big teams get away with more yellow-card fouls without booking, which enables them to repeat.

But the point he's making is that with Barca's style the defenders are up with the attack too and that makes them far more vulnerable to a goal-scoring opportunity by counter-attack wherever on the pitch it occurs. These fouls allow defensive regrouping where the defence would otherwise be hopelessly out of position and vulnerable to counter-attack. That said your bookings point is well made.
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messiah

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Re: The Dark Arts of Barca

Post by messiah on Sun Mar 24, 2013 10:55 pm

Their is a reason why our forwards foul more than our defenders foul up the pitch so the defense can reset its part of the pressing who presses the most, the forwards and midfielders, where are they most of the time high up the pitch

Didn't need and entire article the average football can could have told you that
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Super Progress

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Re: The Dark Arts of Barca

Post by Super Progress on Mon Mar 25, 2013 7:37 pm

EMP wrote:
Super Mourinho wrote:I think Sid Lowe pointed this out a couple of years ago. Of course we rarely hear this part of the Mes Que Un ClubTM story.

Barcelona is hypocritical.

What else is new?

affraid

The analysis behind it is new. He has researched it well for an 11,000 word assignment. It is a well balanced assessment from a coach with no axe to grind. He isn't even knocking Barca. It would be interesting to see how this applies to other clubs that try to emulate Barca's game. I doubt that they would be as good at it. It is also interesting how much they complain about other teams constantly fouling them (especially Messi) when they use such a cynical tactic and proportionately to possession outfoul their opponents. The one flaw I see in this is that he does not seem to have allowed for the possibility of offensive fouls - i.e. when attacking to keep possession such as pushing the defender out of the way, etc. Would be interesting to see if that skews his analysis. Nevertheless, as far as his analysis is correct and few seem to dispute it, how is that type of cynical pre-emptive fouling is this different from a professional foul? It suggests a deliberate and tactical use of fouling to prevent potential goal-scoring opportunities. Why is that not a professional foul?
ok
The analysis was very good and I was surprised by this graph in particular:



I knew their fouling was tactical but not that they were worst at it.

In any respect I have more respect for Barcelona because of this. This is very progressive football. What annoys me of course is that they get praise for playing football the right way when in fact they are quite dirty. But as a style of football I don't think there is anything wrong tactical fouling. Debaser's point that perhaps refs should target it more is well taken but it is unlikely to happen because it would widen the scope of what would justify a yellow card. The ref now would have to assess whether or not a foul was tactical.

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