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    2012-2013 Champions League/Bundesliga Final, Wembley Stadium

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    who is going to gewinnen?

    [ 6 ]
    60% [60%] 
    [ 2 ]
    20% [20%] 
    [ 2 ]
    20% [20%] 

    Total Votes: 10

    Fey

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    Re: 2012-2013 Champions League/Bundesliga Final, Wembley Stadium

    Post by Fey on Sun May 26, 2013 5:47 pm

    Robben now joins the ELITE of Dutch players who scored in a CL final. Like Cruyff and Kuyt!

    2013

    Arjen Robben

    Bayern München - Borussia Dortmund (2-1)

    2007

    Dirk Kuijt

    AC Milan - Liverpool FC (2-1)

    1995

    Patrick Kluivert

    Ajax - AC Milan (1-0)

    1992Ronald KoemanFC Barcelona - Sampdoria (1-0)

    1990

    Frank Rijkaard

    AC Milan - Benfica (1-0)

    1989

    Marco van Basten (2x),

    Ruud Gullit (2x)

    AC Milan - Steaua Boekarest (4-0)

    1973

    Johnny Rep

    Ajax - Juventus (1-0)

    1972

    Johan Cruijff (2x)

    Ajax - Internazionale (2-0)

    1971

    Dick van Dijk,

    Arie Haan

    Ajax - Panathinaikos (2-0)

    1970

    Rinus Israël

    Feyenoord - Celtic (2-1)

    blutgraetsche

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    Re: 2012-2013 Champions League/Bundesliga Final, Wembley Stadium

    Post by blutgraetsche on Sun May 26, 2013 5:56 pm

    Spot the odd one...the one scoring for the losing side.

    Fey

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    Re: 2012-2013 Champions League/Bundesliga Final, Wembley Stadium

    Post by Fey on Sun May 26, 2013 6:09 pm

    Poor Dirk Sad

    On the other hand, if you have a Dutchman scoring in a CL final, the chance that you win is rather big it seems.

    blutgraetsche

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    Re: 2012-2013 Champions League/Bundesliga Final, Wembley Stadium

    Post by blutgraetsche on Sun May 26, 2013 6:19 pm

    It probably helps if that Dutchman is amongst the world's best players instead of being Dirk Kuijt...

    Fey

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    Re: 2012-2013 Champions League/Bundesliga Final, Wembley Stadium

    Post by Fey on Sun May 26, 2013 6:33 pm

    He was world class! Amazing, that you never rated Kuyt for what he did, yet for some reason Mueller is the 2nd revelation for you.

    blutgraetsche

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    Re: 2012-2013 Champions League/Bundesliga Final, Wembley Stadium

    Post by blutgraetsche on Sun May 26, 2013 7:21 pm

    Different players my Dutch brethren. Kuyt was more of a Jens Jeremies of strikers...

    Fey

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    Re: 2012-2013 Champions League/Bundesliga Final, Wembley Stadium

    Post by Fey on Sun May 26, 2013 7:46 pm

    Actually they are rather similar, however Mueller has these typical German cuntish trickery acts! He did them yesterday as well, with his oversized head on his fragile body.

    Kroos

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    Re: 2012-2013 Champions League/Bundesliga Final, Wembley Stadium

    Post by Kroos on Sun May 26, 2013 8:32 pm




    Isco Benny

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    Re: 2012-2013 Champions League/Bundesliga Final, Wembley Stadium

    Post by Isco Benny on Sun May 26, 2013 10:10 pm

    blutgraetsche wrote: New Wembley has never been so loud - Heimspiel!


    This is the thing about Germans, you give them Czechoslovakia and they want to claim Poland too.

    Bradford City fans vociferously singing non stop despite being 5 nil down > the German invasion


    blutgraetsche

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    Re: 2012-2013 Champions League/Bundesliga Final, Wembley Stadium

    Post by blutgraetsche on Mon May 27, 2013 8:24 am

    Bayern Munich's five-star London bash dominated by feelings of relief

    Champions League victory party was as much an exorcism of last year's defeat by Chelsea as a triumphal spree

    Raphael Honigstein
    The Guardian, Sunday 26 May 2013 20.57 BST


    The abiding image of the night was Jupp Heynckes throwing shapes with Mr and Mrs Karl-Heinz Rummenigge and a well‑lubricated Bastian Schweinsteiger to Beyoncé's Crazy in Love at 2am. But in truth, the Grosvenor House's packed ballroom saw few moments of such abandoned joy after Bayern's Champions League win.

    The supposed stars of the show, slightly underdressed in their post-match training kit, were either unwilling to brave the dance floor in front of 2,000 club officials, sponsors, Bavarian VIPs and media guests or simply too tired. "I'm cramped up on the left and on the right," said Thomas Müller, with an apologetic smile.

    Borussia Dortmund's courageous pressing in the first 30 minutes had made it a much more uncomfortable evening than Bayern had anticipated; Jürgen Klopp's pre-match threat "of pulling them down to our level" had looked like it may come true.

    "The manager told us to play weakly at first so that they think we're useless," Schweinsteiger joked on stage, but the first half was as poor as any they have played this season. Even after the break, when some tactical tweaks by Heynckes and Bayern's superior individuals on the flanks had turned the tables, they could not quite banish the doubts. "I was bricking it at 1-1," said the goalkeeper Manuel Neuer.

    Philipp Lahm, the captain, spoke privately about the level of "inhumane pressure" he was suddenly experiencing on the pitch. After last season's traumatic defeat in the "final at home" against Chelsea, the awareness of what Germans call the Fallhöhe, the height of their possible fall, was in danger of bringing on a bout of vertigo. Dortmund forced them to look down – and what they saw was scary.

    Bayern did score the decisive goal ("we had learned from the last final that it's best to score late, so that your opponents don't have a chance to come back," joked Müller) but the overwhelming feeling was one of relief at the final whistle.

    They had won, of course, but more importantly they had avoided another horrific defeat. Apart from the totally unfazed Brazilian faction of Dante, Luiz Gustavo and Rafinha, and Franck Ribéry, who was holding court with the trophy amid an entourage of 60 people or so, the close shave had left most players mentally drained. "We all feel that an incredible weight has been lifted," said Neuer.

    This was especially true for Arjen Robben, naturally. The Dutchman told how "memories of the previous year" had come flooding back; "I was thinking about all these bad moments I had in my career, with three defeats in big finals, and to finally win one is a dream. You don't want be labelled a loser, this puts all of that aside now." Robben added that he had made a point of not looking at trophy before the match. "I thought I'll see you later," he said. And so it had come to pass.

    "Football is coming hoam," it said on the red shirts that the players were wearing on the night. It's a Bavarian play on the Euro 96 anthem title but, more importantly, it's an expression of closure.

    The Chelsea defeat had cast them as chokers on the international stage, and in the process critically undermined their self-image of a club with "winner DNA". Twelve months later, they have returned from that wilderness to the only place they truly feel at ease: the winner's podium.

    "A year ago, I looked into the faces of thousands of disappointed fans and I thought: Mama mia, what is happening here?" said Rummenigge in his banquet speech. "This shock is so big, how can we recover from that? Many were waiting for us to break down, to stop but that wouldn't have been Bayern Munich-like."

    The executive chairman told of daily 10am calls from Heynckes in the summer holidays. "We discussed what we needed to change, we all worked towards that. And what we have seen today is the sports comeback of the year!"

    For a few players there was an added element of personal redemption too. "I'm most of all pleased for my players," said Heynckes, "especially the generation of Lahm, Schweinsteiger, Ribéry and Robben". That quartet had not just lost Bayern's last two Champions League finals but three more international finals (the World Cup in 2010 for Robben, the World Cup in 2006 for Ribéry and Euro 2008 for the two Germans); "time was running out for them to cap their careers with that big trophy," said Heynckes.

    The importance for Schweinsteiger's and Lahm's standing in Germany cannot be overestimated. For years, members of Bayern's 2001 Champions League‑winning side such as Stefan Effenberg and Oliver Kahn sniped at them from the sidelines. For many of the country's football traditionalists, the two of them were not big and brash enough, and the lack of international trophies – with Bayern and Germany – was blamed on their perceived lack of leadership quality.

    "Here are your Führungsspieler [leading players] who [you said] aren't Führungsspieler", Müller shouted defiantly at reporters in the mixed zone, when the two captains were passing through.


    Now that all those unsettling questions are resolved, Bayern can return to what they do best – cultivate their image of relentless trophy hunters who don't care one jot about upsetting their rivals.

    "I say fire at will tonight," said Rummenigge. "We have a good chance of winning the DFB cup final [against Stuttgart on Saturday]."

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2013/may/26/bayern-munich-champions-league-party


    That's the best part of the Bayern win - the likes of Effenberg and Kahn (and probably, if not likely, otto) finally shutting up about the 'Führungsspieler' nonsense. Plus, if this Bayern team really pull off the treble, they will have achieved something no other Bundesliga team has achieved before, those 'Bayern greats' included.

    Antarion

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    Re: 2012-2013 Champions League/Bundesliga Final, Wembley Stadium

    Post by Antarion on Mon May 27, 2013 11:59 am

    The CL final got me thinking again. Some refs throwing cards like mad while other refs sometimes seem to have forgotten their cards in their locker room.
    Same in the World Cup final. It's like in big games, refs don't want to be too harsh to players or make wrong decisions which may decide the outcome of the match.

    Overall I am all for less cards than more. Maybe even television monitoring help for the ref for decisions like red cards or penalties.
    I may be biased but i think its correct to don't give Dante a second yellow (or someone who accidentally handballed a ball) because it was clear, that those players did not intend to foul a player or deflect the ball with the hand. On top of it, a penalty is punishment enough. It would be in the hands of the ref to decide if it was accidental or intend, but that's ok for me.

    As for being last man and fouling a player:
    If it's inside the box, it's a penalty and yellow. Outside: red card because there is no other way to handle this one.


    Antarion

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    Re: 2012-2013 Champions League/Bundesliga Final, Wembley Stadium

    Post by Antarion on Mon May 27, 2013 12:01 pm

    @ Blut: Don't know if a CL/WC win makes them suddenly Führungsspieler. They are top players but one has nothing to to with the other.

    For me the most important Führungsspieler was Dante this season.

    blutgraetsche

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    Re: 2012-2013 Champions League/Bundesliga Final, Wembley Stadium

    Post by blutgraetsche on Mon May 27, 2013 12:15 pm

    That's not the point though. The point is that Effenberg, Kahn and the likes can't continue to belittle their careers in their trademark smug way just because they hadn't won an international title.

    Besides, the 'Führungsspieler' Dante almost bottled the CL final for you and was bailed out by Robben (and the ref). Lahm and especially Schweinsteiger proved in the big matches against Barcelona and Juventus in particular that they have what it takes to lead a team. It's no coincidence that Bayern lost to Arsenal when Schweinsteiger wasn't playing. He is the brains of your team.


    Antarion

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    Re: 2012-2013 Champions League/Bundesliga Final, Wembley Stadium

    Post by Antarion on Mon May 27, 2013 12:33 pm

    blutgraetsche wrote:That's not the point though. The point is that Effenberg, Kahn and the likes can't continue to belittle their careers in their trademark smug way just because they hadn't won an international title.

    Besides, the 'Führungsspieler' Dante almost bottled the CL final for you and was bailed out by Robben (and the ref). Lahm and especially Schweinsteiger proved in the big matches against Barcelona and Juventus in particular that they have what it takes to lead a team. It's no coincidence that Bayern lost to Arsenal when Schweinsteiger wasn't playing. He is the brains of your team.


    But Kahn and Effe were right. They needed an international title.

    And whats your point about Dante? Even Zidane bottled it once and was still a Führungsspieler.
    I don't say Schweini is no real Führungsspieler, just that one point has nothing to to with the other.

    blutgraetsche

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    Re: 2012-2013 Champions League/Bundesliga Final, Wembley Stadium

    Post by blutgraetsche on Mon May 27, 2013 12:40 pm

    Kahn and Effe never won anything with the national team. Their smugness based on a 'single' CL title was not justified whatsoever. Of course it was important for the Schweinsteiger - Lahm generation to finally win something, but the smugness of those two was never justified.

    Dante gave your defence stability, there is no doubt about that. But you can't call him 'Führungsspieler' and deny Schweinsteiger the same title based on the performances of this season. Leading a team can be done in different ways, not necessarily screaming at your team mates like you're on crack.

    Super Progress

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    Re: 2012-2013 Champions League/Bundesliga Final, Wembley Stadium

    Post by Super Progress on Mon May 27, 2013 1:26 pm

    It has to do with the fact that continually Germany has had a team that everybody was gushing over but which has won nothing and bottled it a couple of times. Bayern had played 2 finals and lost with one of them being at home with Bayern being ahead until the very last minute. The reaction from Schweinsteiger when Robben was about to take the penalty said it all to me. He was scared to look so he was sitting with his back to the goal next to Neuer. People have been absolutely justified in calling Schweinsteiger out and his performanc in the final didn't exactly inspire confidence in a future midfielder leader.

    messiah

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    Re: 2012-2013 Champions League/Bundesliga Final, Wembley Stadium

    Post by messiah on Mon May 27, 2013 1:31 pm

    Super Mourinho wrote:It has to do with the fact that continually Germany has had a team that everybody was gushing over but which has won nothing and bottled it a couple of times. Bayern had played 2 finals and lost with one of them being at home with Bayern being ahead until the very last minute. The reaction from Schweinsteiger when Robben was about to take the penalty said it all to me. He was scared to look so he was sitting with his back to the goal next to Neuer. People have been absolutely justified in calling Schweinsteiger out and his performanc in the final didn't exactly inspire confidence in a future midfielder leader.

    Really like him, but I agree with this didn't really stamp his authority on the final, the way the likes of pirlo has done.

    blutgraetsche

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    Re: 2012-2013 Champions League/Bundesliga Final, Wembley Stadium

    Post by blutgraetsche on Mon May 27, 2013 1:40 pm

    Oh for Christ sake...

    Seriously, I wonder where this nonsense comes from? What does it mean to 'stamp your authority' on the final? Getting raped 0-4 like Pirlo did with Italy?

    Maybe it's about time to give the other team credit? Klopp's idea to 'block' the Schweinsteiger - Martinez engine tactically was executed brilliantly by Gündogan and Bender, especially in the first half. Schweinsteiger was forced to play as a libero at times, moving back to help out the defence that was under severe pressure from the relentless Dortmund pressing.

    People just look for things to nitpick. It's a team game for christ sake, as if Schweinsteiger's contribution to his team's CL season can really be questioned now, especially after the 1/4 finals and semis.

    messiah

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    Re: 2012-2013 Champions League/Bundesliga Final, Wembley Stadium

    Post by messiah on Mon May 27, 2013 1:47 pm

    blutgraetsche wrote:Oh for Christ sake...

    Seriously, I wonder where this nonsense comes from? What does it mean to 'stamp your authority' on the final? Getting raped 0-4 like Pirlo did with Italy?

    Maybe it's about time to give the other team credit? Klopp's idea to 'block' the Schweinsteiger - Martinez engine tactically was executed brilliantly by Gündogan and Bender, especially in the first half. Schweinsteiger was forced to play as a libero at times, moving back to help out the defence that was under severe pressure from the relentless Dortmund pressing.

    People just look for things to nitpick. It's a team game for christ sake, as if Schweinsteiger's contribution to his team's CL season can really be questioned now, especially after the 1/4 finals and semis.

    Come on blut, pirlo has done it in many finals, and over the whole cl,bastian was easily the best cm, but he had a average final at best, just another in quite a few finals actually and their isn't anything wrong with people pointing that out.

    Makes us wonder what he will do when the chips are down in a major final for Germany in the coming years.

    Super Progress

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    Re: 2012-2013 Champions League/Bundesliga Final, Wembley Stadium

    Post by Super Progress on Mon May 27, 2013 1:53 pm

    Well the point of those see weakness in modern Germans, perfectly justified imo, don't say they are incapable of playing well against good teams otherwise they wouldn't continue to make it to the finals or semifinals. The point is the lack of leadership in those final games. This is similar to what is said about Robben. He has consistently performed at a high level throughout a competition but when in finals he has choked for a long time and even continued in the final until the very last minute of the Cl final. So the problem is not really about playing well against good teams. Regardless of this Cl final I'm quite doubtful that this Germany is going to win anything.

    blutgraetsche

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    Re: 2012-2013 Champions League/Bundesliga Final, Wembley Stadium

    Post by blutgraetsche on Mon May 27, 2013 1:53 pm

    Maybe I'm just different in this regard, because I tend to look at the team performance first, before concentrating on certain individuals. Schweinsteiger wasn't at his very best, but that more or less applies to most of his team mates. Or it doesn't, because you can only shine as much as the opposition allows you to. The best thing about this final was that it was a very even match. Both teams would have deserved to win.


    blutgraetsche

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    Re: 2012-2013 Champions League/Bundesliga Final, Wembley Stadium

    Post by blutgraetsche on Mon May 27, 2013 1:55 pm

    Then remain doubtful. You seem to forget that the other team was filled with German internationals, too.

    It's total nonsense anyway. A knockout match is a knockout match, one mistake and you're out, be it in the 1/4 finals, semis or final. There is no logical reason whatsoever to believe that once you have proven yourself numerous times in these crucial matches, you'll continue to fail in the final. Besides, Schweinsteiger did not fail. If he had, Bayern hadn't won the match, simple as.

    Super Progress

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    Re: 2012-2013 Champions League/Bundesliga Final, Wembley Stadium

    Post by Super Progress on Mon May 27, 2013 2:02 pm

    No it isn't. There is a clear difference from the 1/8 to 1/4 to 1/2 to the final. The pressure mounts as you get closer. The closer you get the more it is simply about winning the match at all cost which is why finals tend to be quite poor. Even with Robben you still have to wonder if he has truly burried his problem if the goal was a one off. Considering how many chances he has had in finals you would expect him to at least put one in there. Time will tell...

    messiah

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    Re: 2012-2013 Champions League/Bundesliga Final, Wembley Stadium

    Post by messiah on Mon May 27, 2013 2:15 pm

    For me if a player has good games all the way to the final he should be given credit for that, but if you then go on to play 3-4 final and be poor to average, regardless of if you win are not, (two teams can't win and one not wnning doesn't necessarily mean their players were poor.)

    Then one has to take note of that has well.

    blutgraetsche

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    Re: 2012-2013 Champions League/Bundesliga Final, Wembley Stadium

    Post by blutgraetsche on Mon May 27, 2013 2:23 pm

    At the top level, when playing against the strongest teams in the 1/4 finals onwards, the level of concentration has to be the same, otherwise you won't reach the final to begin with. 'Pressure' only was enormous this time due to Bayern's history in important finals in the recent past. Dortmund don't have this history, hence they played with a lot less pressure.

    If anything, coming back in such an impressive way after that crushing and very unlucky defeat last year only speaks for Bayern, not against them. Many other players might have despaired, but they didn't. The pressure was on their side, they had to win, and they did. And no matter what you believe, Schweinsteiger contributed to that substantially, too, as did all the other 'chokers'.

    Losing finals is one thing, coming back and winning another. The psychological block is a thing of the past. And please, don't get me started on the psychological block the Spanish players had prior to Aragones winning Euro 2008 with them (and Pep everything else on the club level later on).

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    Re: 2012-2013 Champions League/Bundesliga Final, Wembley Stadium

    Post by Isco Benny on Mon May 27, 2013 4:12 pm

    Schweinsteiger missed that vital penalty in the CL final last year did he not? I'm not saying he's not a good leader / a bottler, but he's clearly not the perfect Teuton Superman Blut would like him to be Laughing

    blutgraetsche

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    Re: 2012-2013 Champions League/Bundesliga Final, Wembley Stadium

    Post by blutgraetsche on Mon May 27, 2013 4:20 pm

    Actually, that was my point. Bayern (including Schweinsteiger) experienced some painful defeats in recent years, but they came back. Schweinsteiger, Lahm, Robben and Ribery experienced the same on the international stage also. So when you fail to win a number of important titles and come back stronger, if you finally manage to go that last mile, you have grown significantly as a player. And you have overcome a psychological block that could become important in the future.

    Or to say it differently : It's 'easier' to win if you don't have to carry that psychological baggage. But once you have overcome it, you gain a belief that wouldn't be there if you hadn't gone through hell. Defeats can make you stronger, but that doesn't always happen. It needs a lot of determination and will to finally make things right.


    Isco Benny

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    Re: 2012-2013 Champions League/Bundesliga Final, Wembley Stadium

    Post by Isco Benny on Mon May 27, 2013 5:13 pm

    I'll believe he's over it when he slams home a winning penalty in the next final Wink

    If anything, it's Arjen Robben who vindicated all those previous disappointments more than anyone.

    By the way, the Championship playoff final is on at the moment and the atmosphere at Wembley has been brilliant. Just sayin' Whistle

    Super Progress

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    Re: 2012-2013 Champions League/Bundesliga Final, Wembley Stadium

    Post by Super Progress on Mon May 27, 2013 6:58 pm

    Disco Benny wrote:Schweinsteiger missed that vital penalty in the CL final last year did he not? I'm not saying he's not a good leader / a bottler, but he's clearly not the perfect Teuton Superman Blut would like him to be Laughing
    I totally forgot that.




    And here is his reaction when Robben missed that penalty



    Also agree that Robben came the best out of this.

    110%

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    Re: 2012-2013 Champions League/Bundesliga Final, Wembley Stadium

    Post by 110% on Mon May 27, 2013 9:12 pm

    blutgraetsche wrote:Oh for Christ sake...

    Seriously, I wonder where this nonsense comes from? What does it mean to 'stamp your authority' on the final? Getting raped 0-4 like Pirlo did with Italy?

    Maybe it's about time to give the other team credit? Klopp's idea to 'block' the Schweinsteiger - Martinez engine tactically was executed brilliantly by Gündogan and Bender, especially in the first half. Schweinsteiger was forced to play as a libero at times, moving back to help out the defence that was under severe pressure from the relentless Dortmund pressing.

    People just look for things to nitpick. It's a team game for christ sake, as if Schweinsteiger's contribution to his team's CL season can really be questioned now, especially after the 1/4 finals and semis.

    I've mentioned it before, there a skill that even PES stats can't show and that is the ability to escape criticism when you're shit. It's strange how some players acquire it while others can't. Pirlo missed a penalty in the CL shootout against Liverpool, he massively failed in a number of games, including for example against a cesc-led arsenal in the CL, yet no-one even remembers that happened. Schweinsteger doesn't seem to have this particular skill, when he's not great it gets noticed. When he raped xaviesta a new arsehole during the 7-0 semifinal it was all about messi being injured, cesc being shit and tito being clueless. Xavi and iniesta both escaped criticism.

      Current date/time is Sat Apr 19, 2014 11:22 am