Arsènal FC - 2014-2015

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Isco Benny

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Re: Arsènal FC - 2014-2015

Post by Isco Benny on Tue May 14, 2013 4:26 pm

Have Arsenal lost yet? Sounds like there is a post mortem discussion going on here before anybody has actually died.
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Romford Pele

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Re: Arsènal FC - 2014-2015

Post by Romford Pele on Tue May 14, 2013 4:29 pm

We can definitely pay £200k wages Glenn. We have so much dross on our wage bill it's unreal

Chamakh
Bendtner
Denilson
Squillaci
Arshavin
Park
Djourou

That's in excess of £300k in wages for people who currently aren't at the club. We have a massive squad but not filled with much quality. You can easily refine that and have some top talent on big money. And i'm not suggesting we bankrupt ourselves, we have money so that would never be an issue. I'm suggesting we spend the best part of £70m - money which the board has claimed numerous times is available on 4/5 top players.

Wenger has a poor record when it comes to spending big money so I wouldn't trust him with it. Gervinho for £12m. Christ.
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Romford Pele

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Re: Arsènal FC - 2014-2015

Post by Romford Pele on Tue May 14, 2013 4:31 pm

Our figures are openly published. We have a massive wage budget.

This breaks it down better: http://www.arsenaltrust.org/news/latest-news/ast-analysis-of-arsenal-holdings-plc-half-year-accounts-to-30-nov-2012
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blutgraetsche

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Re: Arsènal FC - 2014-2015

Post by blutgraetsche on Tue May 14, 2013 4:35 pm

Disco Benny wrote:Have Arsenal lost yet? Sounds like there is a post mortem discussion going on here before anybody has actually died.

No. Arsenal will finish 4th because nobody does that better than them. Considering that it's their "greatest goal" according to Wenger, their consistency is quite astonishing. So we probably should call them champions, because they win their championship every year.
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Romford Pele

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Re: Arsènal FC - 2014-2015

Post by Romford Pele on Tue May 14, 2013 4:38 pm

Put it this way - our wage bill is similar to that of Bayern's, yet look at their team and look at ours. Complete mismanagement. I'm glad Gazidis is telling Wenger to scrap this shitty socialist model.
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blutgraetsche

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Re: Arsènal FC - 2014-2015

Post by blutgraetsche on Tue May 14, 2013 4:40 pm

But don't forget that a substantial part of the current Bayern team are homegrown players that didn't cost transfer fees (or small transfer fees).

But if it is true that you wage bill is comparable, you still could do better indeed.
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Romford Pele

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Re: Arsènal FC - 2014-2015

Post by Romford Pele on Tue May 14, 2013 4:45 pm

True. But Bayern utilise their finances efficiently. The cost of a season ticket at Bayern is what you'd pay for a Category A game at Arsenal (e.g vs Chelsea). Where all that additional money is going is anybody's guess.

The problem is Wenger pays players on potential rather than achievement. For example, you have a very talented 21 year-old Jack Wilshere on £80,000 a week, despite winning nothing in his career to date. Walcott is our highest paid player despite being average to good at best. You get where i'm going here.

When you have people like Denilson and Chamakh earning in excess of £60,000 per week, you know you have issues.
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blutgraetsche

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Re: Arsènal FC - 2014-2015

Post by blutgraetsche on Tue May 14, 2013 4:52 pm

But at least Wilshere looks like a quality player from your own academy. That's where Arsenal should continue to focus on, improving the quality of your homegrown players. Because Glenn is right that you won't be able to outspend City or Chelsea, no matter how well off you are.

Bayern doesn't do that either. Guardiola or Götze could have earned much more money elsewhere. But Bayern are attractive for top players and managers because they have created the structure that breeds success, from the financial and sporting standpoint.

Arsenal are financially solid and from all the top English clubs the best equipped to follow Bayern's model in this regard. But if Wenger is the right man for this remains to be seen. Maybe the English style manager isn't the best choice, as things are getting too complex? It's not like Heynckes decides everything in München, far from it actually.
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Romford Pele

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Re: Arsènal FC - 2014-2015

Post by Romford Pele on Tue May 14, 2013 5:00 pm

Wilshere is a quality player for sure. We are placing more focus and there are a few decent homegrown players in the reserves, but until St James Park starts churning out decent youngsters, it'll be more of the same i'm afraid.

You're right about outspending Chelsea or City. But there are enough good players in the world that not every top club is going to buy. CF's and AM's are in full supply at the moment - there are loads that we could get that could improve what we have right now.

It goes back to what I said to Luis earlier; Arsenal can still attract loads of established players because of their prestige and history, we just need a manager brave and bold enough to make the right calls. I no longer think Wenger is that man. To be honest, I don't think many things will change until we have a complete revamp of the management and get some people who care about the club back in. There is a lot of talk about spending big, but I've heard it all before.
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blutgraetsche

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Re: Arsènal FC - 2014-2015

Post by blutgraetsche on Tue May 14, 2013 5:04 pm

St. James Park is not the be all, end all of youth development. At the end of the day, it's the clubs that have to produce talent. St. James Park can help to improve the structures and coordinate youth development, but the clubs will (and should) take the lion's share.

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Isco Benny

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Re: Arsènal FC - 2014-2015

Post by Isco Benny on Tue May 14, 2013 5:09 pm

*St George's Park.

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Romford Pele

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Re: Arsènal FC - 2014-2015

Post by Romford Pele on Tue May 14, 2013 5:10 pm

Embarassed
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blutgraetsche

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Re: Arsènal FC - 2014-2015

Post by blutgraetsche on Tue May 14, 2013 5:16 pm

Oops. I call it limey Clairefontaine from now on... Smile
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Kimbo

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Re: Arsènal FC - 2014-2015

Post by Kimbo on Tue May 14, 2013 5:35 pm

St James' Park. <Ale>
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Isco Benny

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Re: Arsènal FC - 2014-2015

Post by Isco Benny on Tue May 14, 2013 5:37 pm

Shirley the comparison with Bayern is a poor one.

The notion that Bayern don't buy players is codswallop. As the only real consistent superpower in the Bundesliga, they pillage the rest of the league as and when they feel like it.

Arsenal don't have that luxury. Not even Chelsea, United or City have such a clear homogeny on talent floating about domestically.

Of course, Bayern's ability to produce homegrown players is commendable, and no one is denying the coaching structure in Germany is the envy of Europe, but again let's put into perspective that English clubs have been restricted in this area by the 90 mile radius rule (only abolished last season).

In countries on the Continent, it's rarely a surprise to see the top clubs also produce the top homegrown players because they can lure the talent from anywhere in the country. Hence Porto, Sporting, Barca, Madrid, Bayern etc tend to churn out the best young players. The 90 radius rule was designed to protect smaller clubs in England having their best kids poached. So instead, clubs have been poaching kids from abroad, which leaves teams like Arsenal in situations where said foreign kids don't think much of jumping ship back home later on a la Fabregas.

I am in total agreement that more English clubs need to build homegrown teams, but it's not so black and white as to say 'it worked for Bayern', as it's a very different situation in Germany than in England. And for all the praise we give the Bundesliga, the likelihood is next year Bayern will be even stronger, their only real challenger in Dortmund will have been stripped apart. Meanwhile in England, Man City and Chelsea will almost certainly bulk up this summer to at least make it a three horse race again.
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Balack was Coward

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Re: Arsènal FC - 2014-2015

Post by Balack was Coward on Tue May 14, 2013 7:11 pm

Good post but if you look back over the years very rarely has the PL been a three horse race. The last time it was a three horse race was 2009. So it's not exactly a sure thing that next season will be a three horse race, even if in theory it should be.
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Luis

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Re: Arsènal FC - 2014-2015

Post by Luis on Tue May 14, 2013 7:21 pm

I think it could be a 5 horse race in which no horses actually take part.
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The Chosen Glenn

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Re: Arsènal FC - 2014-2015

Post by The Chosen Glenn on Tue May 14, 2013 7:27 pm

horses aren't allowed, read the rules
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Isco Benny

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Re: Arsènal FC - 2014-2015

Post by Isco Benny on Tue May 14, 2013 7:31 pm

Jonah and the Whale wrote:Good post but if you look back over the years very rarely has the PL been a three horse race. The last time it was a three horse race was 2009. So it's not exactly a sure thing that next season will be a three horse race, even if in theory it should be.

No, for sure, nothing is for certain. And with Man United's domination over the last 2 decades it's hard to accuse the Bundesliga of lacking competition. But Bayern are a special case in Germany, they always have been. Far more so than any one side in England. The way they decimate their competition domestically through wielding of a cheque book is like nothing you see in England. Sure, Man City ransack Arsenal every so often, Man United went through a period of shaking their dicks at Spurs, but Bayern are on a whole other level. If you're a World Class player in Germany and wish to remain in Germany, it seems the only real option is to move to Bayern. Not particularly healthy for the rest of the league, or comparable with clubs like Arsenal in England who do not have that luxury.
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blutgraetsche

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Re: Arsènal FC - 2014-2015

Post by blutgraetsche on Tue May 14, 2013 7:46 pm

Disco Benny wrote:Shirley the comparison with Bayern is a poor one.

The notion that Bayern don't buy players is codswallop. As the only real consistent superpower in the Bundesliga, they pillage the rest of the league as and when they feel like it.

Arsenal don't have that luxury. Not even Chelsea, United or City have such a clear homogeny on talent floating about domestically.

Of course, Bayern's ability to produce homegrown players is commendable, and no one is denying the coaching structure in Germany is the envy of Europe, but again let's put into perspective that English clubs have been restricted in this area by the 90 mile radius rule (only abolished last season).

In countries on the Continent, it's rarely a surprise to see the top clubs also produce the top homegrown players because they can lure the talent from anywhere in the country. Hence Porto, Sporting, Barca, Madrid, Bayern etc tend to churn out the best young players. The 90 radius rule was designed to protect smaller clubs in England having their best kids poached. So instead, clubs have been poaching kids from abroad, which leaves teams like Arsenal in situations where said foreign kids don't think much of jumping ship back home later on a la Fabregas.

I am in total agreement that more English clubs need to build homegrown teams, but it's not so black and white as to say 'it worked for Bayern', as it's a very different situation in Germany than in England. And for all the praise we give the Bundesliga, the likelihood is next year Bayern will be even stronger, their only real challenger in Dortmund will have been stripped apart. Meanwhile in England, Man City and Chelsea will almost certainly bulk up this summer to at least make it a three horse race again.

Bayern do buy players, they buy a lot of players actually. But their best buys in the last couple of years were not those that cost them a ton of money. Sure, Martinez or Neuer were expensive, but Kroos who has been instrumental for them this season cost them €100.000 at the age of 17. Or Dante, who cost less than €5m.

Bayern benefit massively from the conveyor belt of talent, sure, but they actually provide their own substantial share. Hummels is a Bayern München youth product, for example. The 90 miles rule may hurt EPL teams, but as Newcastle showed last year and Spurs have shown often, it is still possible for EPL teams to sign quality players without breaking the bank. Scouting, club structure, management are all areas that define success. And while it's true that Arsenal's situation can not be compared to Bayern's, there is a lot of positive things they could learn from them. Arsenal have a similar business ethic and from the financial perspective, are a well run club. What they probably lack is the sporting expertise of the Bayern board that has been around for ages and had been instrumental footballers themselves. In this respect, it may not be the worst idea to let Wenger join the board.
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Romford Pele

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Re: Arsènal FC - 2014-2015

Post by Romford Pele on Fri May 17, 2013 10:09 am

We have £100m to spend and we're about to sign Yaya Sanogo on a free transfer Razz

Wenger Grr Rolling Eyes

The only thing I know is that this dude turns awesome on Football Manager.
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Romford Pele

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Re: Arsènal FC - 2014-2015

Post by Romford Pele on Fri May 17, 2013 10:14 am

And it's another bloody Frenchie. Shoot me now silent
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Romford Pele

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Re: Arsènal FC - 2014-2015

Post by Romford Pele on Fri May 17, 2013 10:31 am

Le Grove is in meltdown this morning Very Happy

"Wenger and the board are c**ts"
"RIP Arsenal"
"Arsenal 1886-2006"

Just to quote a few lol!
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The Chosen Glenn

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Re: Arsènal FC - 2014-2015

Post by The Chosen Glenn on Fri May 17, 2013 10:39 am

Yaya SaN'gog cheers

he's the original Lukaku, back from the days when it was still cool to be the new Drogba.

I'm all about Rickie Lambert these days Ale
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Balack was Coward

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Re: Arsènal FC - 2014-2015

Post by Balack was Coward on Fri May 17, 2013 10:51 am

Doesn't your board and Wenger know that the best way to make money is to spend money* ? If you had a team that could challenge for the league and get to the SF of the CL your clubs bank account would grow and your clubs image would improve too. Thus you would be a bigger club than you are now, that extra money you would earn with a better team would go a long way to pay for the extra quality you needed and most importantly Arsenal would have a strong team competing for trophies again, after all winning trophies is the whole point of a football club. Sometimes I think Wenger has forgotten this. Smile

* This rule doesn't work if you spend it on shite like Carroll and Downing.
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Romford Pele

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Re: Arsènal FC - 2014-2015

Post by Romford Pele on Fri May 17, 2013 11:04 am

Agree with you Worms, just a shame this view isn't shared by the decision-makers at the club, especially considering how much there is available in the cash reserves.

Nothing against Sanogo to be fair, he looks a great prospect, but we should be signing match winners, rather than stockpiling our team with squad players. We're trying to get rid of the ones we have at the moment FFS!
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The Chosen Glenn

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Re: Arsènal FC - 2014-2015

Post by The Chosen Glenn on Fri May 17, 2013 11:18 am

I'm going to make sweeping generalisations about Arsenal's summer acquisitions based on this one, May Bosman signing.

All Arsenal need is A. Newmanager to come in and spend £200m to turn Arsenal into a team capable of competing with the current top 3.

I'm not going to be specific about which Newmanager because that would get a bit too close to reality, and I prefer to keep things strictly in the realms of hypothetical fantasy.

A Newmanager from Abroad would do a better job than Wenger, and definitely wouldn't waste any money on flop signings or do any worse in the league/cups than Wanger.

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Romford Pele

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Re: Arsènal FC - 2014-2015

Post by Romford Pele on Fri May 17, 2013 11:26 am

These generalisations are based on years of BS transfers. Should I discount that when formulating my view?

Personally, I'd rather give someone else a chance than Wenger, who's transfers on the whole in recent seasons have flattered to deceive.

Most want the squad to be refined and to include match winners - £200m is an overhaul, I never said that.

There are a few capable managers who can do a better job than what Wenger is doing right now. Take your head out of his arse and off that pedestal you seem to place him on.
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The Chosen Glenn

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Re: Arsènal FC - 2014-2015

Post by The Chosen Glenn on Fri May 17, 2013 11:34 am

Romford Pele wrote:

There are a few capable managers who can do a better job than what Wenger is doing right now.

who?
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Romford Pele

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Re: Arsènal FC - 2014-2015

Post by Romford Pele on Fri May 17, 2013 11:41 am

Simeone, Bilic, Blanc, Spalletti, Biesla, Lucescu Ale

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