La Liga 2013/14 Season Thread

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TM

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Re: La Liga 2013/14 Season Thread

Post by TM on Mon Aug 26, 2013 9:59 pm

I'm sure we would have scored a few more goals if Jose was still the manager!! Wink

What are you thoughts on the impending Bale transfer? Personally I am a bit concerned that the balance of the team is being scarified, with two very direct players in the team (Bale and Ronaldo) I don't see how we will be able to accommodate Ozil, Isco and Modric.
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messiah

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Re: La Liga 2013/14 Season Thread

Post by messiah on Mon Aug 26, 2013 10:07 pm

Evstill shit even with ronaldo and isco, bale will come saved the day
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Jaime

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Re: La Liga 2013/14 Season Thread

Post by Jaime on Tue Aug 27, 2013 1:15 am

TM wrote:I'm sure we would have scored a few more goals if Jose was still the manager!! Wink

What are you thoughts on the impending Bale transfer? Personally I am a bit concerned that the balance of the team is being scarified, with two very direct players in the team (Bale and Ronaldo) I don't see how we will be able to accommodate Ozil, Isco and Modric.
Well, Ancelotti played Modric, Isco, and Ozil tonight all in the same team and in the first half it worked out pretty well.

It's like I've said a million times, I like Bale but signing him is completely unnecessary and rather vulgar at the price. I don't think that we will be any more direct with Bale than we have been in the past with Di Maria. It's one thing to have direct players and it's another thing to have a manager that insists only on playing the counter.

Look, it could be worse - we could be signing Mahamadou Diarra.

110%

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Re: La Liga 2013/14 Season Thread

Post by 110% on Tue Aug 27, 2013 8:00 am

Super Mourinho wrote:Uefa won't allow it/Uefa has all the power Biggrin 

There is jack shit Uefa can do if the clubs really wanted to do this. This is why Uefa had to placate the G14 or whatever some years ago. It wasn't the top clubs groveling to Uefa. They have the capital(=players). It is not like in America where the league has the power.
On this subject, I don't think the clubs ever wanted to break away, they just wanted to flex their muscles, be recognised, get a bigger share of the pie etc. If they set up a super league, they will make money, but there are a lot of potential downsides. Messiah talks about "simple economics" without any understanding of it. Let's use an example just looking at the tv deals, currently the richest deal is the 800M/year paid to the EPL, of course people will pay more for the bigger teams, so how about 1 Billion/year for the superleague just for the sake of argument. If you have 20 teams that makes 50M/team, i.e. a reduction compared to what most of the big teams get now by playing in  their domestic competitions and the CL. Even at 2 Billion/year (2.5 times the EPL tv deal, if anyone is willing to pay that), the clubs get 100M/year, that's a reduction for barca and madrid, although an increase for many others. Also in this case barca and madrid wouldn't be able to bully manu, milan etc and take bigger shares.

As for the people pointing towards asia. The EPL is far bigger than the CL, and will remain so. They got there first and their matches are on at a reasonable time. Try to understand the basic concept, plastics don't get up at 3am to watch the CL, established fans do and they don't switch teams any more in asia than they do in europe or america. Are the spanish teams even willing to play at 3pm CET?

Amongst other problems is what's going to happen to the transfer market? Every player not playing in the superleague will be trying to get in. If you think players sitting on the bench at chelsea is a problem now, you ain't seen nothing yet. Also having destroyed all the domestic tv deals, every team will be trying to get their money via player transfers, so that 100M for bale record won't last long. I agree that UEFA don't have power, but they can make problems for the players. What about the fans? Rivalry is the first thing in competition, before even glamour ties. Would any man united fan choose to watch manu versus monaco/psg/porto etc over manu versus liverpool? Even people talking bollocks about asian plastics must know that while they sit at home in front of their tv feeling all superior, some asian plastics are actually flying to manchester or london to watch their teams.

There are many potential downsides to making a superleague, and although you could make it work, why spoil what is at the moment something that works pretty well for the big clubs. The big clubs (with some exceptions) are generally in a good situation, which is why I believe the clubs don't actually want a superleague, at least at the moment. If it was such a simple case that they would make more money, they would have done it already. Barca and madrid have shown that they're all about the money, and their plastic fans like messiah, don't care about la liga at all as long as barca is ok. Fortunately other leagues have recognised that the competitiveness of their leagues is actually pretty important.
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messiah

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Re: La Liga 2013/14 Season Thread

Post by messiah on Tue Aug 27, 2013 11:21 am

As per usual Gary doesn't understand basic numbers to think the prem is so super special that a league with the best of the prem( there by carrying all those plastic again fans with them) would struggle to get even 1 billion per year.

A super league Gary would include all the best teams in Europe and matches will be played on the weekend, and not mid week no one needed to have to explain this to you, no league for the big teams no need to have mid week games, which will open up even more eyes to the tele, hence why the cl final is now played on a Saturday.

I mean seriously :Lol: 1billion for a league with

Man utd
Arsenal
Pool
Milan
Juve
Bayern
Inter
Barca
Madrid

But maybe they would get 2.5 in  their wildest dreams because fans in asia only want to watch the epl and the likes of Southampton and hull city.

Even the dumbest person who understands little about numerics,marketing and basic business principles, wouldn't come up with that crap.

Even those against such a league would never try to argue against in from a economic stand point, as they all know it would be money bags.

But 110 does :lol!

Fucking 1billion dollars
The NFL gets 7 for fucks sake.
Formula one gets god knows how much

But the most popular sport in the world with the most popular team would struggle to get even 1billion.

110%

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Re: La Liga 2013/14 Season Thread

Post by 110% on Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:15 pm

messiah wrote:As per usual Gary doesn't understand basic numbers to think the prem is  so super special that a league with the best of the prem( there by carrying all those plastic again fans with them) would struggle to get even 1 billion per year.

A super league Gary would include all the best teams in Europe and matches will be played on the weekend, and not mid week no one needed to have to explain this to you, no league for the big teams no need to have mid week games, which will open up even more eyes to the tele, hence why the cl final is now played on a Saturday.

I mean seriously :Lol: 1billion for a league with

Man utd
Arsenal
Pool
Milan
Juve
Bayern
Inter
Barca
Madrid

But maybe they would get 2.5 in  their wildest dreams because fans in asia only want to watch the epl and the likes of Southampton and hull city.

Even the dumbest person who understands little about numerics,marketing and basic business principles, wouldn't come up with that crap.

Even those against such a league would never try to argue against in from a economic stand point, as they all know it would be money bags.

But 110 does :lol!

Fucking 1billion dollars
The NFL gets 7 for fucks sake.
Formula one gets god knows how much

But the most popular sport in the world with the most popular team would struggle to get even 1billion.

lol! 

Why doesn't the CL already get 1 Billion then let alone 7 Billion? It has the best teams around Europe already, especially in the later stages. Bayern as the champion only got about 50M last year. The NFL teams will get about 200M each (USD I should add). The reason is that 3 big networks in the US compete for the rights and this is the deal they came up with, where they all pay to have some share. They in turn have a plan to screw the fans with pay-per-view offerings, direct streaming to mobile phones etc. I am pretty sure European TV networks already have some of these plans for their domestic leagues. Who is competing for the CL rights in Europe? In the UK it is ITV and SKY who share it, go to them and ask instead of the 200M or whatever they pay now for 1 Billion, firstly ITV can't afford it, and then SKY will say I'll give 250M instead, because there isn't anyone else in the UK that can compete with me let alone is willing to do so. In the Scandinavian countries it is MTV3 and domestic operators, the same as the UK. Much like la liga, the market is decided by competition and at the moment there isn't any. The market is not decided by you saying to Sky I've got manu, arsenal , liverpool, give me 7 Billion dollars lol! 

BTW Saturday at 3am or Wednesday at 3am doesn't makes that much difference to people in Asia, many of whom work on Saturday and Sunday. Especially you're not going to get the kids (future customers) who are asleep then. The CL final was put on Saturday to try and get more asians interested, but you are just not getting it. Asians think of the Cl like Italians think about the Europa league, and the English teams think about the Coca-cola cup. It is a secondary competition where they follow their own teams only, or watch from the quarter-final stage. It is more convenient on Saturday at 3am but not really convenient. Watching one game works, watching every week doesn't. Does it make much difference even in Europe if the games are Saturday or Wednesday, where 99% watch it on tv rather than going to the game anyway? You can charge more for Saturday night, but I don't need to get the package at home when I can go to the pub on Saturday, which I couldn't on Wednesday.

If the big clubs could get 7 Billion/year and share 350M each the Superleague would be up and running right now. Basically you can't turn around to people paying 30 euros/month to watch football and ask for 100 euros/month. Not because we can't afford it, but just because we'd consider you are taking the piss and we won't accept it.

For reference the world wide tv deal is 1.85 Billion USD for the 2018 and 2022 World cups, with 1.2 Billion of that coming from the US alone:
http://espn.go.com/sports/soccer/news/_/id/7154917/fifa-completes-185-billion-world-cup-tv-deals
Basically it seems that Americans are willing to pay more than the rest of the world combined for sporting events on tv, even sports which they barely watch Wink
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messiah

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Re: La Liga 2013/14 Season Thread

Post by messiah on Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:43 pm

lol! sky give me 7 billion

Gary and is total lack of anything that has to do with numbers and business is always too funny.


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messiah

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Re: La Liga 2013/14 Season Thread

Post by messiah on Tue Aug 27, 2013 3:04 pm

Let me help you a little, with forward thinking.

EPL 2.5b,
Germany,Italy,Spain,France. About 4b

Now take out the best teams and tell the TV stations the only way you see them is in this particular setup.
What happens?, do you think all that money is spent because x TV network makes money from boaedcasting abolton.

Now the counter argument will be, that's domestic TV rights, to that I say it how makes the TV networks their money. Is it Sunderland arsenal? , yes their would he a bit of a lost, but that would be maxed up by the international TV deal, which is growing faster every year.

you tell the Asian fan the only way to see man utd, is in the SL and you think he is going to say no, because it doesn't happen in the EPL. :Lol;

So you see the money is already their, Mr dumb dumb.

As I said in a earlier post, it won't be as much as the NFL, as the TV networks can monetize their products better in america due to advertising.could be more actually.


But what Mr, Gary is trying tell me, is that if we take out the best teams out of the prem, that the prem money won't follow them. But instead will stay in England.

as well as the as in fans who would rather watch anything EPL related than, the best teams from england in a differeny competition.

Genius thinking that is.

110%

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Re: La Liga 2013/14 Season Thread

Post by 110% on Tue Aug 27, 2013 5:02 pm

It's kind of funny calling people names when you can't understand basic concepts. Try to write coherently, and not like a rambling lunatic if you want to have a discussion. I never actually said any of the things you've listed.

You know the EPL 2.5 Billion is over 3 years right? Maybe not. That's "numerics" for you.

Should I bother looking up the rest, when germany is reported to be around 350M/year (the Germans will know better). Don't take my word for it, here is a pretty well written article about mainly the bundesliga but also showing the tv deals figures from the other leagues:
http://bundesligafanatic.com/the-bundesliga-tv-rights-and-their-place-in-europe/

I think I wiped about 5 Billion off your accounting skills just there.

You also don't seem to be able to grasp the concept of a market. You can't just ask for money and get it out of thin air. Let's try again with the best teams from the Bundesliga (since you seem to have a mental block about the EPL). You say to the broadcaster we're going to take 4 teams and you're going to pay us 1 Billion dollars (in a Dr Evil from Austin Powers voice). After they stop laughing they'll say, we were paying you 350M for the Bundesliga and 50M for the CL,  so we'll pay you 250M for the top 4 teams, and 100M to pay for the Bundesliga left behind (the other 14 teams). Since there's no CL we'll save 50M Wink. The companies that are competing with us can't afford that, hence why we have the rights in the first place, therefore no-one will offer you more. Are you going to turn it down and get less from other companies? What you'll get is what the broadcaster thinks he can sell for a profit. It could happen that a new company is set-up but they will work out that the existing broadcaster pays you 400M, and they'll offer you 500M. There won't be a jump from 400M to 1 Billion, while cutting 14 of the teams. No matter how big bayern are that must be a pretty heft number of tv subscribers that don't subscribe any more.

As for Asian fans, of course the fans will switch from the EPL to the superleague as they follow their team. I have never said they wouldn't. But we're talking money here. The CL tv deal is worth far less in Asia as there are far less people watching football at 3am compared to 9pm (regardless of the day of the week), and less chance to gamble. That was one of my points, so try to understand that first. So barca and the like will have to play at 3pm on a saturday, to get asian money. They should already be doing it if they were willing, but it's a bit warm at that time. Without changing the kick-off times you can forget your asian billions, and you can forget growing the market there.
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messiah

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Re: La Liga 2013/14 Season Thread

Post by messiah on Tue Aug 27, 2013 5:33 pm

And those TV subscribers that are losts,I said will be made up by others from, aisa,Africa,the middle east.

Just stop you OK, just stop. You don't understand what your taking about.

As I said most of the domestic TV rights will come with the bigger teams, this is just facts that's how the networks make there money and the rest and in all likihood more, will come from international rights.

As I said just do a bit of forward thinking Gary busquets, the model will change to maximize earnings for the clubs.

Your using microeconomic thinking in a macroeconomic type Convo.
Genius thinking.
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messiah

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Re: La Liga 2013/14 Season Thread

Post by messiah on Tue Aug 27, 2013 5:58 pm

TV money per season per league, approximate figures

EPL 1b
Germany;700+m
Spain: 600m
http://www.tsmplug.com/news/bundesliga-tv-rights-money-distribution-2014/
Italy:700(+/-)
France I don't know.

The cl brings in what 1b per season. The SL will get all off that obviously.

So all together we have about 3b euros as things stand today.

The best teams would take 50-70% of that with them, and negotiate even more.
5 billion per season, that's easy money for a SL type setup.

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Re: La Liga 2013/14 Season Thread

Post by 110% on Tue Aug 27, 2013 7:10 pm

messiah wrote:TV money per season per league, approximate figures

EPL 1b
Germany;700+m
Spain: 600m
http://www.tsmplug.com/news/bundesliga-tv-rights-money-distribution-2014/
Italy:700(+/-)
France I don't know.

The cl brings in what 1b per season. The SL will get all off that obviously.

So all together we have about 3b euros as things stand today.

The best teams would take 50-70% of that with them, and negotiate even more.
5 billion per season, that's easy money for a SL type setup.
So you admit you didn't know the EPL was 2.5 Billion over 3 years then. lol! 
I don't think you should talk about microeconomics and macroeconomics if you can't understand the difference between 1 year and 3 years (and can't divide by 3).

The article I posted already said the Bundesliga money is going up, but most of that money is coming from within germany, so cutting 14 teams is going to cut that. The principle stands whether it is 400 million as of now or 700 million as it will be in 2014. Your plan is to cut the number of fans and therefore no of tv subscribers, while asking for more money. I was giving you an example of germany but you plan to do it all in all big leagues,hence the macroeconomics lol! 

It's difficult to find figures for the Cl but it is less than 1 Billion and involves 76 or 77 teams at the outset, and 32 teams in the group stages. Your plan here is to cut the teams to 20, and increase the revenue 8 fold. Makes no sense. The interest is there from a number of countries in europe as they are represented, your plan to cut all smaller teams such as Basel, FC Copenhagen, which cuts whole countries out. Then you expect their tv subscribers to increase? Are you mental?

I don't even know what "the best teams would take 50-70% means. 20 teams means 5% each, out of your proposed 5 Billion pot, it makes 250 million each. That's more than anyone makes right now, so why isn't there a superleague already?

Instead the G14 actually disbanded and formed a 207-club association instead:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Club_Association
Seems unlikely they'd be able to screw 197 members now lol! 
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messiah

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Re: La Liga 2013/14 Season Thread

Post by messiah on Tue Aug 27, 2013 7:58 pm

Lol typical Gary busquets always holding on to some triviality.
The EPL actually makes 4.5b over the 3 years
2b from international rights ending this year, which is subject to increase.
Since you seem to like to point to stupid trivialities.
No matter how long you sit there with you calculator the SL would make money.its the big teams that generate the income.
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abundance

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Re: La Liga 2013/14 Season Thread

Post by abundance on Tue Aug 27, 2013 10:55 pm

110% I agree with you for the most part, but you have to take into account that a CL regular season is 125 games, vs 380 for a 20 teams league.

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Re: La Liga 2013/14 Season Thread

Post by 110% on Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:13 am

abundance wrote:110% I agree with you for the most part, but you have to take into account that a CL regular season is 125 games, vs 380 for a 20 teams league.
But then you are replacing the regular season of 380 games plus 125 Cl games with a superleague of 380 games plus a cup of some kind, so you'd end up at around the same number of games more or less.

I take your point and agree that there are ways to increase the revenue (I'm no football economist, I'm just chatting here with other fans), and the obvious one that missiah should have gone to is the sponsorship deals. The sponsors do compete with each other. Those companies like Ford, Sony, Gasprom, I am sure are paying a lot to the CL and they'd pay even more for the superleague (or you get Toyota, Samsung etc). I was just trying to point out that setting up the superleague has a lot of potential problems (not solved by money from Asian fans cliche), and trying to give examples of them. Missiah got hung up on the "numerics", with 3 different figures for the EPL revenue on the same page, but then that is my own fault for trying to discuss with him Wink.

Anyway the point at which I got involved was that big clubs didn't really want to make a superleague, they just wanted to flex their muscles and negotiate with UEFA. Now they are in an association where they will have to take account of their members and setting up the superleague right now would be against that. Doesn't mean that in the future it won't happen, but I have doubts about this magical 7 billion pot at the end of the rainbow. The fact that we aren't already watching the superleague speaks for itself.
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messiah

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Re: La Liga 2013/14 Season Thread

Post by messiah on Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:59 am


it doesn't matter how many games their will be in such a league, and if anyone thinks any type of super league, will be setup in the typical league format of 20 teams, means they haven't been following the debate over the years, it doesn't need pointing out that the super league, would be a league in name only.

this sort of league will happen, when the top teams sees their revenues from traditional sources starting to dry up, and the only way to increase revenues drastically will be a situation like a super league.

it will be a situation where they look at domestic football and cl and come to the realization(something they already have), that the cl doesn't bring them enough revenues and domestic football forces them to share money, that is primarily generated because of them.

no matter how some people try to deny it,man utd,liverpool,barca,madrid,juve,milan and so on, have more or as much fans as all the rest of the teams combined, domestically and those who aren't fans subscribe to see them as their second teams, they are the brands on which everything else is built.

hence a super league, will amalgamate all the revenues from the cl and as has been the fear of the people who have been against such a league, take away vast sums from domestic football, and put them together in one big pot.

because as in everything else in live, recognition!, brand recognition! drives football.

no television executive will say, i still have 16 teams left in England,Spain,Italy,France are whatever domestic league, so i am not going to pay big money to gain access to a league with the biggest brands in football.

few people would watch domestic football without the best teams, the quality would just be too poor, their would be a few loses, think man utd after the take over, but at the end of the day the brand will always win.

its business, if you fail to understand this, you have never been to business class, a company would rather by the name lotus and enter F1, than start with a new name, even though it would cost him more, why?, brand recognition.

and the super league would take the brand recognition of the best teams in Europe and put in all one place, so it wont be watered down by domestic football(no disrespect to domestic football, its just business) or cups, if you want to see the best players,managers and teams, you would only be able to access it in one place.

that's the type of thing greedy businessmen dream off.

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Jaime

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Re: La Liga 2013/14 Season Thread

Post by Jaime on Wed Aug 28, 2013 10:42 pm

F*cking hell Valdes is saving Barcelona's ass.

stinger

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Re: La Liga 2013/14 Season Thread

Post by stinger on Wed Aug 28, 2013 10:45 pm

Atletico is really, really well organized. Plus they are great in avoiding bookings for their multi booking offences.
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Jaime

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Re: La Liga 2013/14 Season Thread

Post by Jaime on Wed Aug 28, 2013 10:49 pm

More of this please Atletico - just get Villa to take the shot!


stinger

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Re: La Liga 2013/14 Season Thread

Post by stinger on Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:28 pm

0:0 means extra time? No away goals or they are working in this case as well?
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The Chosen Glenn

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Re: La Liga 2013/14 Season Thread

Post by The Chosen Glenn on Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:37 pm

what did Felipe Luis do? It was off camera and they haven't shown a replay here Sad

stinger

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Re: La Liga 2013/14 Season Thread

Post by stinger on Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:38 pm

will.i.glenn wrote:what did Felipe Luis do? It was off camera and they haven't shown a replay here Sad
Still waiting for better replay. Apparently he hit Dani Alves in face, but it's Alves so you never know...
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The Chosen Glenn

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Re: La Liga 2013/14 Season Thread

Post by The Chosen Glenn on Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:42 pm

lol!

Diego goes forehead to forehead with the ref!
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Hlebagone

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Re: La Liga 2013/14 Season Thread

Post by Hlebagone on Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:42 pm

Well Simeone has really imbued his personality on his players.
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Rosicky

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Re: La Liga 2013/14 Season Thread

Post by Rosicky on Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:45 pm

Pen Barca Rolling Eyes

stinger

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Re: La Liga 2013/14 Season Thread

Post by stinger on Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:45 pm

Messi lol! 
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The Chosen Glenn

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Re: La Liga 2013/14 Season Thread

Post by The Chosen Glenn on Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:45 pm

Messi misses penalty Crazy
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Rosicky

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Re: La Liga 2013/14 Season Thread

Post by Rosicky on Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:46 pm

Messi hits the bar.

Not a great pen taker really...

stinger

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Re: La Liga 2013/14 Season Thread

Post by stinger on Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:46 pm

When they will finally replace him with Xavi or someone else who can actually score from penalty kick???
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The Chosen Glenn

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Re: La Liga 2013/14 Season Thread

Post by The Chosen Glenn on Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:49 pm

this game has everything, certainly set up for a late contentious winner.

Any word on ET?

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