A famous Event

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EMP

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A famous Event

Post by EMP on Sat Jun 29, 2013 12:12 am

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=391200330984655&set=a.391199990984689.1073741834.100002840733883&type=3&theater

A famous event happened here. What was it?
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ERIK LAMELA

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Re: A famous Event

Post by ERIK LAMELA on Sat Jun 29, 2013 9:42 am

"Questo contenuto non al momento disponibile"
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EMP

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Re: A famous Event

Post by EMP on Sat Jun 29, 2013 2:38 pm

It was a long time ago
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ERIK LAMELA

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Re: A famous Event

Post by ERIK LAMELA on Sat Jun 29, 2013 10:11 pm

Can you link to the .jpg?
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EMP

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Re: A famous Event

Post by EMP on Sat Jun 29, 2013 10:37 pm

It is the Estadio Independencia
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Re: A famous Event

Post by EMP on Sun Jun 30, 2013 12:46 am

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Re: A famous Event

Post by EMP on Sun Jun 30, 2013 12:47 am

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Re: A famous Event

Post by EMP on Sun Jun 30, 2013 12:49 am

It has been refurbished since the event, but the venue is the same, so what happened there?
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mongrel hawk

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Re: A famous Event

Post by mongrel hawk on Sun Jun 30, 2013 3:06 pm

USA 1 - 0 England in 1950?
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Re: A famous Event

Post by EMP on Sun Jun 30, 2013 4:16 pm

Mongrel Hawk wrote:USA 1 - 0 England in 1950?

Correct. How many of that American team were immigrants who did not have US citizenship at that time and why were they allowed to play?
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Re: A famous Event

Post by mongrel hawk on Sun Jun 30, 2013 4:49 pm

EMP wrote:
Mongrel Hawk wrote:USA 1 - 0 England in 1950?

Correct. How many of that American team were immigrants who did not have US citizenship at that time and why were they allowed to play?

I don't know. What I know is they were an amateur team form a small city.
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Re: A famous Event

Post by EMP on Sun Jun 30, 2013 5:07 pm

Mongrel Hawk wrote:
EMP wrote:
Mongrel Hawk wrote:USA 1 - 0 England in 1950?

Correct. How many of that American team were immigrants who did not have US citizenship at that time and why were they allowed to play?

I don't know. What I know is they were an amateur team form a small city.

There were some semi-professionals. There were three immigrants who were allowed to play because it was enough to have an intention to apply. Only one of the three got it. The US captain for that day was a Scot ad the goal-scorer a Haitian. The other immigrant was a Belgian Resistance hero in WWII.
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ERIK LAMELA

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Re: A famous Event

Post by ERIK LAMELA on Mon Jul 01, 2013 4:10 am

That shows just how long England have sucked for.
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Re: A famous Event

Post by EMP on Sat Jul 06, 2013 11:34 pm

This was also the first time that England had played in the World Cup finals. Why?
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Re: A famous Event

Post by mongrel hawk on Sun Jul 07, 2013 1:53 pm

EMP wrote:This was also the first time that England had played in the World Cup finals. Why?

They were too good for the rest of the world, and I can see this situation repeating itself in the World Club Cup.

Oh, I guess there was a second reason: English players were too delicate to play in the summer. Biggrin
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Re: A famous Event

Post by EMP on Sun Jul 07, 2013 2:11 pm

Mongrel Hawk wrote:
EMP wrote:This was also the first time that England had played in the World Cup finals. Why?

They were too good for the rest of the world, and I can see this situation repeating itself in the World Club Cup.

Oh, I guess there was a second reason: English players were too delicate to play in the summer. Biggrin

Yep.

So who scored the goal that punctured their ego in Brasil and what happened to him?

What's the chance of climate change doing the right thing and ensuring that all future World Cups observe strict protocol of ensuring that all tournaments occur according to European climate requirements?
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Re: A famous Event

Post by Isco Benny on Sun Jul 07, 2013 6:44 pm

What is this, a gameshow?
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mongrel hawk

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Re: A famous Event

Post by mongrel hawk on Sun Jul 07, 2013 7:13 pm

Isco Benny wrote:What is this, a gameshow?

Yeh. I was about to win an FA kit from 1950. Unfortunately I don't know the answer to the last questions. Sad
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Re: A famous Event

Post by EMP on Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:06 pm

Isco Benny wrote:What is this, a gameshow?

It's a football history educational thread. Next year you'll thank me for it as someone will pick up on it, especially if USA and England make it. You might win a brand new full size portrait of Sepp Blatter if you're lucky.

@ Todo: The goal was scored by Joseph Gaetjens. He never got US citizenship. He went to France first and then back to Haiti. Members of his family were in the opposition to the dictatorship of Papa Doc Duvalier. They fled in July 1964 after being involved in an assassination attempt on Duvalier. Gaetjens, being non-poplitical and a football person thought he was safe. On July 8th 1964 he was forced by members of the Ton Ton Macoute to drive to a police station and from there he was taken to the notorious Fort Dimanche Prison. Joseph Gaetjens was never seen alive again. 12 years later he and the rest of that team were inducted into US Soccer's Hall of Fame.

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Re: A famous Event

Post by 110% on Mon Jul 08, 2013 9:31 am

EMP wrote:
Mongrel Hawk wrote:
EMP wrote:This was also the first time that England had played in the World Cup finals. Why?

They were too good for the rest of the world, and I can see this situation repeating itself in the World Club Cup.

Oh, I guess there was a second reason: English players were too delicate to play in the summer. Biggrin

Yep.

So who scored the goal that punctured their ego in Brasil and what happened to him?

What's the chance of climate change doing the right thing and ensuring that all future World Cups observe strict protocol of ensuring that all tournaments occur according to European climate requirements?

Proof? I read that there was some dispute between the FA and FIFA (they were corrupt even back then probably). Before 1950 did all the other European teams not participate because they also thought they were too good? Or it could have been that they didn't think a couple of football matches was worth spending so long away from their families and jobs? I notice that you like to try and hype events, such as the confed cup, beyond their actual level of importance, and this is the same with the world cup pre a certain time. The simple answer is that it was not a serious competition like it is now.

As for the climate, playing in excessive heat and humidity risks players' health or does that not matter? Are you saying we shouldn't bother with air-conditioned stadiums in Qatar, because playing in 50C is fine? Or have you decided a temperature and humidity level at which complaining becomes legitimate, if so you need to tell us.
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Re: A famous Event

Post by EMP on Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:19 am

There was a dispute. Uruguay had been given the World Cup. Europe didn't like it, but as Uruguay was the dominant force in World football at that time - the Olympics were the unofficial world title, something football governing bodies wanted to put right the World Cup was a natural evolution. England's and European nations' absence doesn't devalue it - that was their choice and arrogance.

The lack of qualifiers to get there in 1930 does, but that was due to difficulties organising and travel. That was quickly put right. Amazing that Eurocentric eejuts say nothing of travel requirements that would have been needed in reverse of South Americans to come to Europe for 34 and 38 and the gutting of Argentina's team by Italy. Uruguay boycotted with reason in protest over for example Italy's refusal to come in 1930 which was largely Eurocentric pique that it had been given to Uruguay and not Europe. Uruguay was the best team in the world at that time. It was right that they should host it. How typical that Europeans whinge about travel and absence from family. What the fuck did they expect was going to happen? Did they give a toss that in Europe the same applied to South American teams when it was held in Europe?

So what's England's excuse for not travelling to such far flung lands as Italy and France in 1934 and 1938 then? I don't overhype tournaments, you undervalue them.

The climate issue was known about in Qatar and it was part of the bid to have air-conditioning. My point obviously was the level of European whingeing whenever the climate is not the same as their's. When it is in Europe the rest of the world has to adapt and do so with far less whingeing than happens from Europeans when they have to travel.

England's excuses before 1950 are just that - excuses. They had more travelling to do in Brasil in 1950 which they went to and they had to be away a long time. Uruguay's absence in 1934 and 1938 was more significant than England's in all of them as they had proved their status and prowess on the pitch unlike England. By the way remember where Uruguay won the Olympic title in 1928? Did they get to teleport into Amsterdam or did they have to sail and be away from their families a long time. Didn't hear them whingeing about it being in Europe then.

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Re: A famous Event

Post by 110% on Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:54 am

For England there is some interesting info just in this page on wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_1%E2%80%930_England_(1950_FIFA_World_Cup)

e.g. This was England's World Cup debut, the English Football Association having boycotted the previous three tournaments owing to a dispute with FIFA over payments made to amateur players,[1] which had been resolved four years earlier.[2]

It seems logical that since the dispute, which was actually between the English FA and FIFA (and nothing to do with England not being awarded the world cup in 1930), was resolved in 1946, England took part from 1950 and hence why they didn't attend in Uruguay, Italy or France. England didn't have to think about the travel since they were not going anyway.

This page for the 1930 world cup seems also to have completely missed your point that the europeans being pissed off about Uruguay being awarded the world cup:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1930_FIFA_World_Cup
It is also quite strange that if the Europeans had been against it they didn't stop it since most of the FIFA were Europeans:

They go so far as to say:
However, because of the long and costly trip across the Atlantic Ocean, and the length of absence required for players,[1] very few European teams were inclined to take part.

What arrogant bastards!! Having a legitimate reason for not doing something is no excuse for not attending a football match or two on the other side of the planet in 1930. I find it strange that you of all people, EMP, would jump to the conclusion of "arrogant europeans", since your whole injustice work is about people not jumping to conclusions.

Uruguay chose not to go to Italy in retaliation. All this points to the fact that it was not a serious competition in those days like it is now. Other examples include India not being able to play as they wanted to play barefoot. I am not devlauing anything, I am giving everything exactly the value it merits. I don't blame Uruguay for 1930 (they beat who was there), and I don't blame Tahiti for the Confed cup this year (they beat NZ to qualify). I don't blame them for the quality of the competition, but I can point it that it was a problem.
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Re: A famous Event

Post by debaser on Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:48 pm

EMP wrote:By the way remember where Uruguay won the Olympic title in 1928?

Erm
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Re: A famous Event

Post by EMP on Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:51 pm

110% wrote:For England there is some interesting info just in this page on wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_1%E2%80%930_England_(1950_FIFA_World_Cup)

e.g. This was England's World Cup debut, the English Football Association having boycotted the previous three tournaments owing to a dispute with FIFA over payments made to amateur players,[1] which had been resolved four years earlier.[2]

It seems logical that since the dispute, which was actually between the English FA and FIFA (and nothing to do with England not being awarded the world cup in 1930), was resolved in 1946, England took part from 1950 and hence why they didn't attend in Uruguay, Italy or France. England didn't have to think about the travel since they were not going anyway.

This page for the 1930 world cup seems also to have completely missed your point that the europeans being pissed off about Uruguay being awarded the world cup:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1930_FIFA_World_Cup
It is also quite strange that if the Europeans had been against it they didn't stop it since most of the FIFA were Europeans:

They go so far as to say:
However, because of the long and costly trip across the Atlantic Ocean, and the length of absence required for players,[1] very few European teams were inclined to take part.

What arrogant bastards!! Having a legitimate reason for not doing something is no excuse for not attending a football match or two on the other side of the planet in 1930. I find it strange that you of all people, EMP, would jump to the conclusion of "arrogant europeans", since your whole injustice work is about people not jumping to conclusions.

Uruguay chose not to go to Italy in retaliation. All this points to the fact that it was not a serious competition in those days like it is now. Other examples include India not being able to play as they wanted to play barefoot. I am not devlauing anything, I am giving everything exactly the value it merits. I don't blame Uruguay for 1930 (they beat who was there), and I don't blame Tahiti for the Confed cup this year (they beat NZ to qualify). I don't blame them for the quality of the competition, but I can point it that it was a problem.

I didn't say it was about England not being awarded the World Cup. You do however, ignore the discussions that resulted in Uruguay being chosen to host it. It is not legitimate for Europeans to whinge about traveling to Uruguay when the reverse would have applied and did in 1934 and 1938. that is arrogant. Doesn't matter if the South Americans have to travel and to a massively corrupt World Cup - really the worse ever - but God forbid Europeans should have to travel! The arrogance is that Europeans think it legitimate for them to boycott over travel to South America, but ignore the reverse of that in 1934 and 1938. Funny how that extremely obvious point was persistently ignored.

You'll notice that the European candidates for 1930 eventually withdrew in favour of Uruguay hosting it. That was partly because all accepted Uruguay was the unofficial World Champions due to Olympics being that. Having withdrawn in favour of Uruguay, it is a bit rich that they then whinged their arses off about it being there! As I pointed out Uruguay came to Europe in 1928 and won the Olympics. They did not whinge about having to come to Europe to do it, but the same issues arose for them. The objections over Uruguay from Europeans were earlier in process.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIFA_World_Cup_hosts

The travel issue as I have repeatedly pointed out happens in reverse when it is in Europe and the South Americans did not whinge about it. Uruguay boycotted in 1934 in retaliation and with a point. Italy had boycotted after having withdrawn as potential hosts in 1929 in favour of Uruguay hosting. Europeans boycotted arrogantly in 1930 as they had allowed Uruguay a free run to host in 1930 a year earlier. They must have known it would involve travel. Amazing how that is excuse for Europeans in 1930 but doesn't matter in reverse in 1934 and 38.

The decision to host in Europe was agreed without contest as the Europeans withdrew from the hosting vote in 1929. Having done that they have no right to complain. Both Argentina and Uruguay boycotted in 1938 as a hosting agreement to alternate was reneged on.
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Re: A famous Event

Post by EMP on Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:50 pm

debaser wrote:
EMP wrote:By the way remember where Uruguay won the Olympic title in 1928?

Erm

And remember where they won it for the first time in 1924?

Paris - 1924
Amsterdam - 1928

No tournament in 1932 and restored for Nazi Games of 1936 where Peru was cheated and went home!

110%: Regarding the FA's dispute with FIFA over early World Cups. Far from reflecting well on the FA, it shows elitism. FIFA wanted to include professionals to be more inclusive of state of the game. What bastards.

In the 1924 and 1928 Olympic games, the first South American teams entered the competition: Uruguay and Argentina. Uruguay won both Olympics and FIFA became conscious that the Olympic movement was not only hindering the ability of nations to participate on an equal footing but, given that the Olympics only permitted amateurs to participate, did not represent the true strength of the international game.

The shameteurism of the Soviet bloc reflects on the Olympics rather than the World Cup. England had no legitimate excuse to boycott the early World Cups and had it not been for the gap due to WWII and FIFA wanting them to participate no concession should have been made. There is plenty of corruption in football and FIFA - allowing professionals to play in the early World Cups isn't one of them.

If you want to talk about irrelevant football tournaments the Olympics has plainly become one. It is a nonsense - Confederations Cup is not.

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Re: A famous Event

Post by 110% on Mon Jul 08, 2013 2:15 pm

Wow another lot of conclusion jumping from you there. You seem to have found Europeans guilty of several acts of arrogance without a single item of proof provided. I am going to spend at least 5 mins fighting this gross injustice.

You see, I can't find anywhere any info on Europeans complaining about uruguay being the host. Completely against that idea is that FIFA voted and the majority were European countries so could have easily voted to stay in Europe. In the beginning they had a number of options, but when Uruguay offered to reimburse all expenses they became the favourites (no-one disputed the fact fact that there were olympic champions) and the others all dropped out. This was probably the model for future FIFA corruption, free tickets, fancy hotels etc. So we have Uruguay to thank for that Wink. You are the only one who says there was a problem with Uruguay hosting, so how about providing some proof? You should have some basis for continually repeating the same flawed assumptions as fact.

As far as I can find through Google, Europeans not wanting to travel to uruguay had nothing to do with being pissed off about Uruguay, it had everything to do with the travel distance. Uruguay didn't travel in retaliation, but I can't find any Europeans complaining about that, only you on their behalf. Can you provide some proof of the whinging europeans complaining about uruguay not coming to Italy?

World cups 1934 and 1938 were at least better than 1930, but still had their problems, and I would also consider them to be of lower value than the world cup as it is today.

Amazing that you think the confed cup has some value while the olympics is worthless. You are clearly not representing fans opinions on this as fans from various countries went to the olympics to support their country. How many people travelled to brasil for the Confed cup apart from reporters?
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Re: A famous Event

Post by EMP on Mon Jul 08, 2013 3:32 pm

110% wrote:Wow another lot of conclusion jumping from you there. You seem to have found Europeans guilty of several acts of arrogance without a single item of proof provided. I am going to spend at least 5 mins fighting this gross injustice.

You see, I can't find anywhere any info on Europeans complaining about uruguay being the host. Completely against that idea is that FIFA voted and the majority were European countries so could have easily voted to stay in Europe. In the beginning they had a number of options, but when Uruguay offered to reimburse all expenses they became the favourites (no-one disputed the fact fact that there were olympic champions) and the others all dropped out. This was probably the model for future FIFA corruption, free tickets, fancy hotels etc. So we have Uruguay to thank for that Wink. You are the only one who says there was a problem with Uruguay hosting, so how about providing some proof? You should have some basis for continually repeating the same flawed assumptions as fact.

As far as I can find through Google, Europeans not wanting to travel to uruguay had nothing to do with being pissed off about Uruguay, it had everything to do with the travel distance. Uruguay didn't travel in retaliation, but I can't find any Europeans complaining about that, only you on their behalf. Can you provide some proof of the whinging europeans complaining about uruguay not coming to Italy?

World cups 1934 and 1938 were at least better than 1930, but still had their problems, and I would also consider them to be of lower value than the world cup as it is today.

Amazing that you think the confed cup has some value while the olympics is worthless. You are clearly not representing fans opinions on this as fans from various countries went to the olympics to support their country. How many people travelled to brasil for the Confed cup apart from reporters?

As I have said repeatedly Uruguay did not travel to Italy in protest over Italy and others not coming. It simply beggars belief that you call Uruguay corrupt in 1930 and say nothing about 1934 which was the most corrupt World Cup ever.

You seem to be taking lessons from Glenn in distorting what I said. The point which I reiterate for the umpteenth time is that Uruguay would have had to travel to Europe to compete there. If it is reasonable to expect them to travel and be away from their families then that is no excuse for Europeans coming to South America. In other words Europeans whinged about it after having had the opportunity not to withdraw from the hosting contest. If Europe had the majority in FIFA and it was corruptly awarded to Uruguay then it is European delegates that acted corruptly by accepting the 'bribes' Why did Europe award it to South America and then whinge about how far they had to travel. Perhaps they should have consulted an atlas!

"So much controversy surrounded the First World Cup in 1930 that most European nations refused to send their representatives to the event in Uruguay.

Five nations - four Europeans and Uruguay- originally applied to stage the first World Cup. On account of its successes in the two Olympics - 1924 and 1928- and to climax its centenary celebration of independence from Spain, the organizers decided that Uruguay would be a more sentimental journey for the inaugural World Cup.

The four unsuccessful bidding nations, together with a host of other European countries, decided to stay away from the long sea trip to South America.

Records list the refusniks as England, Scotland, Wales, Ireland, Italy, Switzerland, Sweden, Czechoslovakia, Spain, Portugal, Greece, the Netherlands, Poland, Denmark, Norway, Finland, Germany, Austria and Hungary.

The decision to stay away could be described as a case of sour grapes."

http://www.modernghana.com/news2/277684/2/uruguay-first-world-cup-champions.html

Regarding how many travelled to Brasil, can't be bothered to research it. Did you check viewing figures? How many travelled to OLympics just for football?




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Re: A famous Event

Post by 110% on Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:26 pm

I haven't distorted a single word you've said. I've pointed out a legitimate reason for people not travelling for a world cup in the 1930s (which equally applies for uruguay) for your constant whinging about europeans whinging. The only person I see doing any whinging here is you. If this is the way you normally discuss things with people, i.e. not bothering that they've made a reasonable point then changing your argument and accusing them, then I am beginning to wonder about your arguments with Glen.

What actually beggars belief that you are not able to read. I don't call Uruguay corrupt. I joked that FIFA got the idea that hosts pay for stuff from them, and that FIFA are corrupt. Of course there is corruption at every world cup at every level, starting with the free tickets given to media people, such as yourself, to keep them sweet, but what can you do.

You can't seem to understand that not travelling for weeks on a ship across the world is a legitimate reason and it equally applies for uruguay not coming to Italy, therefore I have no problem with any country that didn't want to travel (including uruguay). You can keep repeating and I still don't care, because I have no problem with it. My problem with those world cups is that the world did not participate, it's like America having the world series in baseball.

I quote you wikipedia and the most mainstream you can come up with is an article from "modern ghana"? There is very little fact in the article and it's all opinion and twisting of facts as in:
"So much controversy surrounded the First World Cup in 1930 that most European nations refused to send their representatives to the event in Uruguay."
The FA was in dispute with FIFA, so it had nothing to do with FIFA choosing Uruguay. The founding members of FIFA and the ones with power were in Europe, if they wanted the could have had the world cup there. In the end it came down to finances, and no-one else wanted to pay. It was like the eurovision song contest, no-one really wanted to host it because it cost too much.

Here is an article on the actual fifa website with facts:
http://www.fifa.com/worldcup/archive/edition=1/overview.html

e.g. A 1927 FIFA commission examined the possibility and on the eve of the following year's Amsterdam Olympics, FIFA's Congress voted to stage an inaugural world championship in 1930. The only remaining question was where. Italy, Netherlands, Spain, Sweden and Uruguay all expressed an interest but the Uruguayans alone were prepared to pay all travel and hotel expenses as well as build a new stadium at a time of economic uncertainty. Add the fact Uruguay would be celebrating its centenary that same year and FIFA duly plumped for the South Americans, confirming their decision at the 1929 Congress in Barcelona.

Finding the teams to take part was the next challenge. Seven signed up from the home continent along with Mexico and the United States. But two months before the start, there was still no European entrant. The prospect of two months away was an obvious deterrent for players with jobs at home but France and Belgium the only two FIFA founder members to participate eventually agreed to undertake the long journey together with Yugoslavia and Romania.

FIFA must have loved the part in bold. That is what the world cup is to them, staying in an all-expenses-paid 5-star hotel in another country where some teams they don't care about are playing football.
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EMP

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Re: A famous Event

Post by EMP on Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:19 pm

Good grief. Uruguay did not boycott Italy and France in 1934 and 1938 over travel. They came without complaint over travel and absence from family to the Olympics in 1924 and 1928 despite the distance travelling and time away. They boycotted Italy in retaliation over Italy not coming, clearly suggesting they did not accept the 'legitimate' whingeing over travel and absence. Had it been in Europe in 1930 then the South Americans would have had to travel. The fact they had never suggested that was a reason to boycott suggests they would have come had they lost the right to host, which occurred because the Europeans withdrew in 1929. If they objected so much they should not have withdrawn especially as one of the whingers was Italy which had bid. Their withdrawal meant Uruguay would host. What did they think was going to happen after they withdrew their bids. Your claim against FIFA ignores the fact that all the European putative hosts withdrew their bids. Whether they provided expenses or not matters not a bit as they hosted because everyone else withdrew. If Italy objected to travelling so legitimately they should not have withdrawn their bid - pretty simple really.

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Re: A famous Event

Post by Di Caniooooo! on Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:05 am

EMP wrote:
Mongrel Hawk wrote:USA 1 - 0 England in 1950?

Correct. How many of that American team were immigrants who did not have US citizenship at that time and why were they allowed to play?
Only 3, most of them were Americans. There's even a movie on it. Plus, it was legal back then. US nearly beat Spain that WC too. Biggest WC upset ever.

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Re: A famous Event

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