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Fey

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Top leagues in Europe

Post by Fey on Tue Aug 20, 2013 1:48 pm

Many people thought that La Liga was the best or at least the 2nd best league in Europe. But now, even Simeone is saying that La Liga is a boring league and that Madrid and Barca survive from EU-money. So what is the best league then EPL still? Bundesliga? Though also totally not competative. Eredivisie? Competative, but not a good level. Serie A perhaps? Or what about Russia and France. Did they overtook the Serie A already..

Give me your top 10-5 or whatever you want to give me.
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blutgraetsche

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Re: Top leagues in Europe

Post by blutgraetsche on Tue Aug 20, 2013 2:11 pm

It's the Bundesliga due to the structures and sound, sustainable business model, amongst many other reasons.

The level of competitiveness is actually improving, despite Bayern's dominance, as paradox as it may sound. Dortmund just passed the €250m revenues barrier, which should comfortably place them in the top 10 of the next Deloitte money ranking. Bayern will likely make more than €400m this year and close the gap to the Spanish giants, but the gap to Dortmund and other Bundesliga top clubs has decreased a bit, because the others have simply grown faster.

The level of competitiveness at the very top is very similar in every major European league these days, it's basically the same clubs winning the league more often than not. The real differentiator is the level of competitiveness below that. From those 18 Bundesliga clubs, most have relatively similar financial means and hence similar ambitions. You could go even further than that and add a number of Bundesliga 2 clubs to the picture, the 'Fahrstuhlmannschaften' stuck between the first and second division. The level of competition there is very very high, as can be seen in the fluctuation there. Clubs like Werder or Wolfsburg went from winning the league to the relegation zone in a relatively short period of time. The other way around happens pretty often, too.

England is similar in some aspects when it comes to the level of competition (structures are a whole different matter), but the top four there are way more 'stable' than they are in Germany, which means that the gap between the strongest and weakest teams is higher.

Serie A lacks the structures and 'professionalism' of the Northern European leagues but they've actually taken steps to improve the level of competition by distributing TV revenues more fairly, in stark contrast to La Liga. I expect Italy to bounce back once the financial problems there are sorted out.

La Liga used to be very exciting and I still enjoy the tactical and technical level of football on display, but to be fair, the focus is solely on the two juggernauts. In the early noughties, the likes of Valencia or Deportivo impressed with dazzling football, but those days will probably never come back. La Liga's problems are huge and there is no solution in sight.
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Re: Top leagues in Europe

Post by Jaime on Tue Aug 20, 2013 2:24 pm

Hard to say at the moment. Dortmund and Bayern have obviously done exceedingly well. I don't know about the rest of the league.

Premier League is pretty interesting this year. Could be Chelsea or Man Utd or City to win it....probably 3 teams that could be going for the 4th CL place.

Serie A doesn't seem terribly competitive at the moment either.

I guess the French league could be interesting.

Maybe I will start to follow the Swiss league.
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blutgraetsche

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Re: Top leagues in Europe

Post by blutgraetsche on Tue Aug 20, 2013 2:27 pm

I agree that the EPL will be more interesting this year. Ferguson leaving has given the rest a bit of hope and air to breathe. Plus, it helps that the strongest clubs have new managers.

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debaser

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Re: Top leagues in Europe

Post by debaser on Tue Aug 20, 2013 3:03 pm

don't follow enough leagues close enough to judge fairly but Bundesliga certainly sounds like it is in the most healthy situation for the coming years in terms of finances etc. Premier League will remain strong in Europe as long as billionaires keep funding the top clubs, but a lot of clubs are not on very sound footing & the gap between haves and have-nots is almost un-breachable. Absurd wage inflation for mediocre players has damaged a lot of clubs and some still aren't learning, with short term panic winning out over sensible long-term strategy.

La Liga could slip into decline but still has two of the top 4/5 clubs in Europe. Serie A clearly does not have finances it once had. France has 2 extremely rich clubs now but will this just make it massively imbalanced (a little like La Liga)?
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messiah

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Re: Top leagues in Europe

Post by messiah on Tue Aug 20, 2013 4:19 pm

The epl will be interrsting in the same way that its been since city go money, three teams in the title race, two are three in for 4th, but the new managers will make it different.

Best league, mls financial structure is solid and getting better, and competitivenesd is off the charts.

Best ib europe i would say Germany. They have the, pgd of england, tactics of italy,technique of spain, all in one, except they aren't as good as any of those nationals at any off them. So sometimes i am confused when i watch.
They kinda need their own unique identity, i could say their identity is the organization of thier teams, but thats not that exciting.

German is the best but i watch it the least, because i don't know what i am watching when it watch it.

Then its la liga, we point to two teams walking it but thats the case in all the big leagues, 2-20. No other league has teams that blends tactics and technique so perfectly.

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blutgraetsche

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Re: Top leagues in Europe

Post by blutgraetsche on Tue Aug 20, 2013 4:39 pm

I think the 'typical' German style is very apparent and rather unique as it combines the physicality of Northern Europe with skill / technique and tactical innovations from within and outside. Vast majority of Bundesliga teams have an attacking philosophy (highest scoring league for decades), high lines of defence and a pressing game ("Gegenpressing"), even at smaller clubs like Mainz or Freiburg. The latter is the biggest difference to England, for example, where not many teams do such coordinated pressing yet (but that seems to change lately). Klopp and others have had a strong influence on the current German football landscape.

Germany and Holland share the same 'philosophical school', with slightly different interpretations. Probably one of the reasons why the rivalry used to be so strong, in addition to the post war context, of course. As far as the 'football identity' is concerned, I really don't think it's what we're lacking. We could do with a bit more tactical variety actually, I wouldn't mind a few defensive sides as long as they're tactically innovative and not just some Stoke clone. Italy still has the edge in this regard, there is more tactical variety between the clubs.
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Re: Top leagues in Europe

Post by Jaime on Tue Aug 20, 2013 4:44 pm

Blut what percentage of players in Bundesliga are German? Must be pretty high.
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blutgraetsche

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Re: Top leagues in Europe

Post by blutgraetsche on Tue Aug 20, 2013 4:46 pm

Not that high actually. Spain's is still considerably higher if I'm not mistaken, as is Italy's. Around 50%.

I'll try to find the stats I read somewhere.
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blutgraetsche

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Re: Top leagues in Europe

Post by blutgraetsche on Tue Aug 20, 2013 4:50 pm

50% was right on the money, but Italy has actually fewer home grown players. Spain has over 60%, as does Holland. France has slightly more home grown players also

http://www.ftbpro.com/posts/tim.hearn/161091/which-european-league-has-the-most-homegrown-players/spain-la-liga-62-4
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Super Progress

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Re: Top leagues in Europe

Post by Super Progress on Tue Aug 20, 2013 4:52 pm

For me it is still England with the best league in terms of quality. Still the more interesting league although obviously there has been a decline but there is still a gap and since every other league except the German is in similar decline there isn't much of a difference overall. Germany will threaten in the future but regardless of the all German final this year their moment hasn't arrived yet imo. It might well in the future but at the moment England is still top dog. With Man City leading the pack and Chelsea getting Mourinho the English slump might well be over. I mean which league has a team like Tottenham that is outside the top 4 and has such a good XI. Arsenal would probably be up there if not for Wenger.
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Re: Top leagues in Europe

Post by Jaime on Tue Aug 20, 2013 4:56 pm

Super Mourinho wrote:For me it is still England with the best league in terms of quality. Still the more interesting league although obviously there has been a decline but there is still a gap and since every other league except the German is in similar decline there isn't much of a difference overall. Germany will threaten in the future but regardless of the all German final this year their moment hasn't arrived yet imo. It might well in the future but at the moment England is still top dog. With Man City leading the pack and Chelsea getting Mourinho the English slump might well be over. I mean which league has a team like Tottenham that is outside the top 4 and has such a good XI. Arsenal would probably be up there if not for Wenger.
Ale
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Fey

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Re: Top leagues in Europe

Post by Fey on Tue Aug 20, 2013 4:59 pm

blutgraetsche wrote:I think the 'typical' German style is very apparent and rather unique as it combines the physicality of Northern Europe with skill / technique and tactical innovations from within and outside. Vast majority of Bundesliga teams have an attacking philosophy (highest scoring league for decades), high lines of defence and a pressing game ("Gegenpressing"), even at smaller clubs like Mainz or Freiburg. The latter is the biggest difference to England, for example, where not many teams do such coordinated pressing yet (but that seems to change lately). Klopp and others have had a strong influence on the current German football landscape.

Germany and Holland share the same 'philosophical school', with slightly different interpretations. Probably one of the reasons why the rivalry used to be so strong, in addition to the post war context, of course. As far as the 'football identity' is concerned, I really don't think it's what we're lacking. We could do with a bit more tactical variety actually, I wouldn't mind a few defensive sides as long as they're tactically innovative and not just some Stoke clone. Italy still has the edge in this regard, there is more tactical variety between the clubs.
lol! lol! lol!

Seriously though, Dutch school of football vs German school of football is totally different. At least it was, perhaps it's more the same these days. But traditionally we tend to look down on German academies, mainly because Germany stands for good condition and 13 in a dozen players.

How many German teams play 4-3-3 THE essential Dutch line-up.
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Fey

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Re: Top leagues in Europe

Post by Fey on Tue Aug 20, 2013 5:03 pm

blutgraetsche wrote:50% was right on the money, but Italy has actually fewer home grown players. Spain has over 60%, as does Holland. France has slightly more home grown players also

http://www.ftbpro.com/posts/tim.hearn/161091/which-european-league-has-the-most-homegrown-players/spain-la-liga-62-4
And with a lot of them abroad as well ok

What a league! <Ale>
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Re: Top leagues in Europe

Post by Antarion on Tue Aug 20, 2013 5:22 pm

I think EPL is still most exciting from a neutral point of view.
I like that there are 4-5 very exciting teams in it and sometimes you look at a relegation candiate and think that they still have some very good players, at least from the names.

Bundesliga is healthy, yes, but it lacks a bit of flair. Just a feeling.

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Re: Top leagues in Europe

Post by Fey on Tue Aug 20, 2013 5:29 pm

Is the Serie A still a top 5 league btw? What are you people opinions about it. With Monacco on the rise and the money in Russia I think it's fair to say the Serie A is no longer a top5 league!
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Re: Top leagues in Europe

Post by Jaime on Tue Aug 20, 2013 6:21 pm

Russia is a bit of a farce isn't it? Has a Russian team ever made the quarter finals of the CL? Ok so Zenit won the Europa League a few years back but it never amounted to anything more. Then you look at Anzhi putting all the players for sale. All a bit silly.
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Fey

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Re: Top leagues in Europe

Post by Fey on Tue Aug 20, 2013 6:35 pm

It is! But then again, it's not like the Serie A is really well run though. All the scandals, points deductions, empty old stadiums. Besides atm Russia has more BIG Players then Italy I would say.
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Super Progress

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Re: Top leagues in Europe

Post by Super Progress on Tue Aug 20, 2013 6:52 pm

Who do they have?
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Murray

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Re: Top leagues in Europe

Post by Murray on Tue Aug 20, 2013 6:57 pm

Fey wrote:Is the Serie A still a top 5 league btw? What are you people opinions about it. With Monacco on the rise and the money in Russia I think it's fair to say the Serie A is no longer a top5 league!
It's a lot better than the ridiculous Spanish league.
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Re: Top leagues in Europe

Post by Kroos on Tue Aug 20, 2013 7:08 pm

Jaime wrote:
Super Mourinho wrote:For me it is still England with the best league in terms of quality. Still the more interesting league although obviously there has been a decline but there is still a gap and since every other league except the German is in similar decline there isn't much of a difference overall. Germany will threaten in the future but regardless of the all German final this year their moment hasn't arrived yet imo. It might well in the future but at the moment England is still top dog. With Man City leading the pack and Chelsea getting Mourinho the English slump might well be over. I mean which league has a team like Tottenham that is outside the top 4 and has such a good XI. Arsenal would probably be up there if not for Wenger.
Ale
serious, tottenham wasn`t that good last year, no striker, scotty facking parker, lennon
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Super Progress

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Re: Top leagues in Europe

Post by Super Progress on Tue Aug 20, 2013 7:30 pm

Biggrin 

German jealousy
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blutgraetsche

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Re: Top leagues in Europe

Post by blutgraetsche on Tue Aug 20, 2013 7:52 pm

Fey wrote:
blutgraetsche wrote:I think the 'typical' German style is very apparent and rather unique as it combines the physicality of Northern Europe with skill / technique and tactical innovations from within and outside. Vast majority of Bundesliga teams have an attacking philosophy (highest scoring league for decades), high lines of defence and a pressing game ("Gegenpressing"), even at smaller clubs like Mainz or Freiburg. The latter is the biggest difference to England, for example, where not many teams do such coordinated pressing yet (but that seems to change lately). Klopp and others have had a strong influence on the current German football landscape.

Germany and Holland share the same 'philosophical school', with slightly different interpretations. Probably one of the reasons why the rivalry used to be so strong, in addition to the post war context, of course. As far as the 'football identity' is concerned, I really don't think it's what we're lacking. We could do with a bit more tactical variety actually, I wouldn't mind a few defensive sides as long as they're tactically innovative and not just some Stoke clone. Italy still has the edge in this regard, there is more tactical variety between the clubs.
lol! lol! lol!

Seriously though, Dutch school of football vs German school of football is totally different. At least it was, perhaps it's more the same these days. But traditionally we tend to look down on German academies, mainly because Germany stands for good condition and 13 in a dozen players.

How many German teams play 4-3-3 THE essential Dutch line-up.
You should read a few articles / books by your compatriot Simon Kuper,  he explains in detail the different schools of thought / approaches in European football. I didn't say identical btw.,  there are differences not just when it comes to formation.  But the roots are quite similar,  the likes of Michels and Weisweiler being very influential in the early days.

The Dutch FA was years ahead of the DFB as far as a coordinated youth setup on the national level is concerned,  that is true,  out of necessity more than anything as a relatively small nation.  But the club academies themselves have always been very good.  There is a reason why Gladbach have the traditional 'Fohlen' nickname,  for example.

Today the DFB have learned their lesson and the national structures are pretty much comparable.
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blutgraetsche

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Re: Top leagues in Europe

Post by blutgraetsche on Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:07 pm

Super Mourinho wrote:Biggrin 

German jealousy
No. If Spurs were so great as you say they are, they would have raped the competition in the Europa League last season, which they didn't.

Plus it's nonsense that Arsenal would be 'up there' just because of Wenger. Wenger's domestic record with Arsenal is much better than his European record. I'd go so far to say that he would have been found out on the continent much earlier and the abysmal transfer record punished more severely than it has been in England, where Arsenal still routinely finish in the top four.

No reason for German fans to be jealous these days, seriously.
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Re: Top leagues in Europe

Post by Kroos on Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:30 pm

Super Mourinho wrote:Biggrin 

German jealousy
scratch 

schalke has beaten arsenal, and arsenal has finished ahead of tottenham, this means schalke > tottenham Laugh ok 


in my opinion the epl is the must fun to watch league, it is tactically not the best league, but i think pellegrini will bring this league forward, while mourinho will play his typical shit and stick footy, united and arsenal in decline, they would be still good enough to fight for the CL places in germany, tottenham is in progress IF they keep bale

overall it`s a very good league to watch, ok sometimes the games dissappoint me, but the german influence and there stars makes me watch this league very often, and mostly it`s not clear who will win the game, thats very important for my head, thats why i never watch barca, they bore me to death
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blutgraetsche

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Re: Top leagues in Europe

Post by blutgraetsche on Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:50 pm

Fey wrote:
blutgraetsche wrote:50% was right on the money, but Italy has actually fewer home grown players. Spain has over 60%, as does Holland. France has slightly more home grown players also

http://www.ftbpro.com/posts/tim.hearn/161091/which-european-league-has-the-most-homegrown-players/spain-la-liga-62-4
And with a lot of them abroad as well ok

What a league! <Ale>
Who will go to Holland from abroad? Even the Portuguese league pays better wages. It's just natural that the vast majority of players are Dutch.

I think the Spanish stat is more impressive. Expect it to increase even simply because bar Barcelona and Real Madrid, most Spanish clubs simply can't afford foreign players, especially established ones.
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Fey

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Re: Top leagues in Europe

Post by Fey on Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:57 pm

The whole of Scandinavia?
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blutgraetsche

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Re: Top leagues in Europe

Post by blutgraetsche on Tue Aug 20, 2013 9:20 pm

What? There are more Germans playing in Holland than Swedes or Danes, true story (see the stats)! Ale Biggrin
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Fey

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Re: Top leagues in Europe

Post by Fey on Tue Aug 20, 2013 9:30 pm

Thats about this year only. Look at them scandi national teams. Most of them played in Holland.
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Re: Top leagues in Europe

Post by Jaime on Tue Aug 20, 2013 10:15 pm

Ok well at least it's safe to say La Liga > Ligue 1

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