El Clásico: Barcelona vs Real Madrid

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Cristiano

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Re: El Clásico: Barcelona vs Real Madrid

Post by Cristiano on Sat Oct 26, 2013 7:16 pm

Isco Benny wrote:God awful selection from Ancelotti. Ramos in mf. No Isco. Bale on the right?

Come home Gareth. He shouldn't have even started, so very clearly not fully fit but being played due to politics.
The team selection was awful. Lost interest as soon as I saw it. Bale should have come on in the 2nd half. Playing Ramos in midfield when we have spent millions in the position in the summer fucking hell.

Although considering how poor we have been Barca didn't exactly wipe us out.
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messiah

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Re: El Clásico: Barcelona vs Real Madrid

Post by messiah on Sat Oct 26, 2013 7:40 pm

most people don't watch him when we play, but I just have to say, its ridiculous how good busquets his.
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Isco Benny

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Re: El Clásico: Barcelona vs Real Madrid

Post by Isco Benny on Sat Oct 26, 2013 7:50 pm

Cristiano wrote:
Isco Benny wrote:God awful selection from Ancelotti. Ramos in mf. No Isco. Bale on the right?

Come home Gareth. He shouldn't have even started, so very clearly not fully fit but being played due to politics.
The team selection was awful. Lost interest as soon as I saw it. Bale should have come on in the 2nd half. Playing Ramos in midfield when we have spent millions in the position in the summer fucking hell.

Although considering how poor we have been Barca didn't exactly wipe us out.
Madrid a team still trying to find a system. Ancelotti strikes me as the kind of manager who will bend over if instructed. That selection was incredibly bizarre. The title is lost but if Ancelotti moulds all the pieces into the correct system, they'll be bloody awesome. Going to take time though, and no club is less patient than Madrid.
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blutgraetsche

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Re: El Clásico: Barcelona vs Real Madrid

Post by blutgraetsche on Sun Oct 27, 2013 9:23 am

No matter how you put it,  it was a showcase match for this summer's 'Galactico' signings, otherwise Bale wouldn't have even started considering that he isn't match fit and hasn't gelled with the team yet. In this respect, Neymar clearly stole the show and added insult to the injury of him choosing Barca over Real,  the whole reason why Perez went for Bale in first place, as he admitted himself.

It's not fair to Bale by any means and this political bullshit,  this Penis weaving mentality is one of the major factors holding Real Madrid back,  as explained earlier,  but this couldn't have happened to a better man than Perez.  Burn you fucker.  

This said,  it wasn't exactly the best clasico in recent times. Barcelona were slightly better,  but still not fully convincing. Real are a mess tactically. It's one thing to get the starting lineup so ridiculously wrong,  another to realise your mistake ASAP and react.  Ancelotti failed on both fronts. I still fail to see his 'Handschrift'  as we say in German,  his 'script',  means his philosophy / ideas being implemented by his team.

This is a bit more clear in Tata's case - Barcelona seem more direct and flexible,  even if a bit less structured in the middle of the park. Probably necessary changes,  but this also makes Barca more 'ordinary'. This was a big win for him and the team though,  6 points lead in La Liga is a lot and it's not even November. This should give them a psychological boost in the coming weeks. Expect Barca to be a tougher opponent in Europe than Real this season,  especially if Real continue to shoot themselves in the foot for political reasons.
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messiah

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Re: El Clásico: Barcelona vs Real Madrid

Post by messiah on Sun Oct 27, 2013 10:48 am

Goof things i took away from the game for us

1) Its the best I've seen pique play in a while

2) The Awesomeness of Busquets, if you are a true fan of footbll, just watch this guy during the course of a game, how he manages to stay so calm i will never, its like he walks on the pitch, thinking i don't give a fuck of we win or lose.

3) While not great, it was iniesta's best game of the season, which shouldn't surprise, Important game, iniesta shows up, par for the course really, hope he starts to find is form again.

4) Neymar continues to settle in nicely, worth every bit of the 17m we paid for him:D 

5) Sanchez after two season, this season he has finally arrived, been waiting so long, after being such a big fan, since his Italy days

6) We won, with messi having a meh game, I have been saying for god know how long now, we should play him on the left in some of the bigger games, as the tactical advantages are pretty clear, we did but it did have the full him pack because he was clearly not 100%, but this experiment needs to be tried again, Except this time i want Sanchez/Pedro/Neymar at the false 9 and not Cesc, especially Sanchez who i have yet to see have a poor game for us in the 9 position, even when he has been more generally poor over the course of a season.

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messiah

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Re: El Clásico: Barcelona vs Real Madrid

Post by messiah on Sun Oct 27, 2013 10:59 am

as for real, Its what i said the moment Carlo was signed, I don't fear him, he isn't a manager with any real type of idea of how his teams should play an their is such a thing as being too tactically flexible, plus his record in league football is pretty shit all things considered and the time of him doing well in the CL is over, with these up and coming young managers who are willing to be bold and new old things.

While ozil is not as good as the germans seem to think, and i agree with a lot of the madrid fans when they say he was poor in big games where team sat back.

as i have always said he isn't the type to be creative with possession but more in the counter attack.

didn't see much while at madrid to change that view, madrid needs a link between midfield and attack and he was the perfect type of player for that, now they have no one, as Isco isn't that type of player or is Modric or mendi.

the keep to Madrid was always, Alonso linking the defense and midfield, Ozil the midfield and attack and Ronaldo taking a million shots before scoring, they are missing the middle piece.

writing this, its strange that Carlo sold him, as he is probably the closest thing to kaka in his prime, playing football now, those direct burst of speed, quite little lay off passes, getting in the box and scoring so peach of a goal, he is literally a more skilled version of kaka.

Isco on the other hand is a more skilled version of lampard
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blutgraetsche

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Re: El Clásico: Barcelona vs Real Madrid

Post by blutgraetsche on Sun Oct 27, 2013 12:07 pm

Özil wasn't poor in the Clasicos, quite on the contrary, you seem to have a warped memory if anything. Many Barcelona fans (and players, going by recent interviews) were rather relieved to see him leave Madrid.

But Özil and Madrid is old news. Yes, it was a strategic mistake and it was clear back then, but it's pointless to speculate about it now. Ancelotti just said again a few days ago that he prefered Di Maria's 'workrate and attitude' and thought this to be more important for the team (as if Di Maria really was Özil's competition (hint: completely different type of player), but Carlo knows...), he has to live with his decision. That's what he should be judged by: he decided to get rid of a rather important player, he clearly had other plans, that's his choice. But how those plans are going to work out is what he should be judged for - how is he going to play Bale and Ronaldo in the same team? Where will Di Maria play, what are his plans for Isco? etc. etc.

So far, as I said earlier, it's not clear to me if he really has a strategy at all. Or maybe the team doesn't understand his plans. Either way, Madrid look disjointed and weaker than last season, which is saying a lot considering the ruckus that was going on in the dressing room.
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messiah

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Re: El Clásico: Barcelona vs Real Madrid

Post by messiah on Sun Oct 27, 2013 3:02 pm

maybe he wasn't poor in the Tito clasico's but no madrid player was, under Pep he was poor.

I don't know why it surprise anyone if it does at all, that carlo lacks a clear idea or system, this was always going to be the issue which is way i welcomed his signing.

as i said at some point you become too flexible, as for the bale thing, while i never rated him i am not going hate on him the player, but perez really is like a little kid playing Football manager with his signings since the old days

Bale in no form shape are way is a all round better player than di maria, who has such a complete game for a winger, but bale has a great season and all of a sudden he has to get him because he lost out on neymar.

the only type of player real needed was a player that it better in close spaces, as i said during the summer and a better DM, a De rossi type.

now they are in a position where di maria is playing so well he is damning a start, ronaldo who has to start, and bale who also has to start, good luck to carlo figuring that out, not to mention Isco
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Isco Benny

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Re: El Clásico: Barcelona vs Real Madrid

Post by Isco Benny on Sun Oct 27, 2013 7:59 pm

blutgraetsche wrote:No matter how you put it,  it was a showcase match for this summer's 'Galactico' signings, otherwise Bale wouldn't have even started considering that he isn't match fit and hasn't gelled with the team yet. In this respect, Neymar clearly stole the show and added insult to the injury of him choosing Barca over Real,  the whole reason why Perez went for Bale in first place, as he admitted himself.

It's not fair to Bale by any means and this political bullshit,  this Penis weaving mentality is one of the major factors holding Real Madrid back,  as explained earlier,  but this couldn't have happened to a better man than Perez.  Burn you fucker.  

This said,  it wasn't exactly the best clasico in recent times. Barcelona were slightly better,  but still not fully convincing. Real are a mess tactically. It's one thing to get the starting lineup so ridiculously wrong,  another to realise your mistake ASAP and react.  Ancelotti failed on both fronts. I still fail to see his 'Handschrift'  as we say in German,  his 'script',  means his philosophy / ideas being implemented by his team.

This is a bit more clear in Tata's case - Barcelona seem more direct and flexible,  even if a bit less structured in the middle of the park. Probably necessary changes,  but this also makes Barca more 'ordinary'. This was a big win for him and the team though,  6 points lead in La Liga is a lot and it's not even November. This should give them a psychological boost in the coming weeks. Expect Barca to be a tougher opponent in Europe than Real this season,  especially if Real continue to shoot themselves in the foot for political reasons.
Ale It's very silly to get into penis waving relating to two players (Neymar/Bale) at this point anyway, given one (Neymar) had a virtually seamless summer transition to Barca which involved a pre-season, and the other one of the most drawn out ball breakingly excruciating moves in recent times, no pre season and an accompanying injury.

Whilst I want to laugh at Bale for leaving us, I understand it's not as black and white as that - pretty clear he's been badly advised throughout: all he wants to do is play on the biggest stage for a stellar club like Madrid and that's understandable, but I expect he's personally been totally naive of the politics that comes with Madrid. Even watching the game, I noticed how Ronaldo seemed extremely hesitant to pass him the ball. Equally, midfielders seemed to consistently overlook his runs/passing him the ball. Now it may be that they realize he's not up to scratch yet, but I do wonder if it's deeper than that. I certainly wouldn't put it past players like Ronaldo to actively prefer to see Bale ostracized and away from the limelight.
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messiah

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Re: El Clásico: Barcelona vs Real Madrid

Post by messiah on Sun Oct 27, 2013 8:44 pm

the none passing to him always happens when a new player comes, wouldn't read to push into in, no one passed to henry until way down when he came to barca, bale just has to earn the respect of the player, which is hard when perez Is forcing him to be played half fit
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blutgraetsche

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Re: El Clásico: Barcelona vs Real Madrid

Post by blutgraetsche on Mon Oct 28, 2013 5:17 pm

Barcelona's clásico win over Madrid leaves more questions than answers

Nine weeks into the season, it wasn't clear who La Liga's biggest teams were. Ten weeks into the season, it still might not be

Many a true word said in jest. "Yes," Tata Martino replied and then a smile stretched across his face. "Well, I'm not going to claim that Alex Song is a creative No10". A grin, the hint of a laugh, knowing giggles from the back of the room. It was a little under an hour after the first clásico of the season, the first clásico of a new era, and Barcelona had beaten Real Madrid 2-1. In the 77th minute, Martino had taken off Andrés Iniesta and replaced him with Song with the score at 1-0. "Was that change," the manager was asked, the word almost sticking in his inquisitor's throat " ... was that change ... defensive?" "Yes," Martino said. "And I would do it again."

You monster!

There was something different about this Barça-Madrid, something that made it feel like a new chapter*, like the story had shifted. To where exactly, we didn't yet know. After 17 clásicos in three years, games seemingly every day, everyone had waited eight months for this one. The ballboy had gone the previous year, now the translator had too; that particular rivalry departing with them, the rivalry momentarily orphaned. For the first time in a decade, both teams had new managers. Cristiano Ronaldo and Leo Messi were still there of course, but they had new stars too. On Saturday morning, Marca's front page ran photographs of Gareth Bale and Neymar – total price: €159m – alongside the headline: "Priceless."

The rivalry felt like it was stuck in suspended animation. Although there had been a little crossfire already, it stood in a kind of limbo. Where were these teams headed? When Carlo Ancelotti had arrived at Madrid, he might as well have worn a name badge that said: "Not José Mourinho." When Martino arrived at Barcelona, he might as well have worn a name badge that said: "Being Pep Guardiola." Just not quite. There was expectation but it was tentative: their identities were still to be forged and this was the game that might do so. Nothing leaves a mark like the clásico. Nine weeks into the season, it still wasn't clear who, or what, Spain's biggest teams were.

Ten weeks into the season, it might not be either. Someone had turned the noise down and the lights up: there was less of the edge, the sniping and stirring, and the kick-off was at 6pm. Daylight wrested drama from the stage. On the corner of Travessera de les Corts, a couple walked by to the sound of whistles: he in Barcelona's yellow and red Catalan shirt, she in Madrid's white. In the 17th minute and 14th second, the chants for independence began again and almost exactly a minute later, just as the chants gave way to applause, Neymar scored. The ball hit the net as the clock showed 18:12. And with tiresome predictability at the end of it all, the supporting role became the central actor again when the referee denied Real Madrid a penalty.

As usual, those that 'don't talk about the referee' talked about the referee and those that 'always talk about the referee' decided that this time they wouldn't talk about the referee. Ronaldo was booked for calling him "a fucking coward"; Madrid's own match report spat out every word bitterly, calling it "unjust and indignant". Afterwards Marcelo insisted: "It's always the same."

But it was not the same. It was not the weekend's best game or the league's best performance: you had to look to Atlético or Villarreal for that. For the 14th game in a row, both Barcelona and Real Madrid scored, but this was the first time in six visits to the Camp Nou that Ronaldo did not score. Messi didn't score either; he will have to wait to overtake Alfredo Di Stéfano's record. The opening line in the match report in El País ran: "The clásico is no longer the clásico." The editorial in AS lamented a love lost: "Two or three years ago I dreamed of watching them in the Champions League final and they seemed unstoppable. Last year they were not as good. This summer, we thought ... but, no."

There were more questions than answers. Ancelotti's team selection and formation surprised, a 4-3-3 with Sergio Ramos in midfield and, at the beginning, Bale as the central striker in a three. Madrid didn't really recover, they did not really perform, until they shifted to something a little more natural, with Asier Illarramendi and Karim Benzema on, while Isco remained on the bench.

Patience is a virtue but few appear willing to give Ancelotti the time. Ten weeks into the season his approach, always presented as a kind of counter-weight to Mourinho, is yet to be defined: El País calculated 42 changes across the 13 matches so far. He has talked about a 4-4-2 but it doesn't always looks like one; he has talked about Ronaldo as the main striker, but that's only really the case if you count his position as the place he finishes up, rather than the place he starts. Here, it was different again. On the face of it, there was some logic to the shift: speed on the counter is the way to open up Barcelona. But few were prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt … at least until this morning when Marca suddenly did a U-turn, splashing its cover with a huge "Keep calm".

Who knows? The plan might even have worked but this time, Barcelona were different. This season, they are different. A little more "anarchic" in Cesc Fábregas's words, a little more direct, a little less controlled. The pressure starts deeper, they wait more, and at times the formation has even looked suspiciously like 4-4-2: on Saturday night, Neymar was on the left, Messi on the right and no one between them, Cesc scurrying into that space. They have still looked vulnerable at the back, alarmingly so, just as they have for the last 18 months, but the debate has not really focused on that.

Against Rayo Vallecano Barcelona "lost" possession for the first time in five years and the debate began. "We had 66%, like last season," Martino protested, noting the one thing he believes he really lacks: the right passport. "I understand that when a team has verged on footballing excellence that kind of question will always be talked about, all the more so when the coach is not Dutch or home-grown."

The problem is that Martino was supposed to be a continuation; he arrived declaring himself "enamoured" of Barcelona's style. He revealed that he had spoken to sporting director Andoni Zubizarreta for a long time on the phone: "I imagine he wanted to make sure there would be respect for the way they played already," Martino said. On Saturday, his side controlled the first half, albeit from a deeper position and with less edge, less pace, less precision in the passing. In the second, they dropped further, the passing lost its accuracy, and Victor Valdés looked long, not short. Messi rarely appeared, exiled back on the right, the wing he departed the day Barcelona beat Madrid 6-2.

Madrid had more of the ball in the second 45 minutes and a couple of good chances too. The penalty decision could well have been decisive. By the end, Barcelona had had 54% of the possession. A figure which, for them, is strikingly low: it was 67% last year and during one clásico the season before it reached 73%.

"Barcelona have become a speculative team; not the side the world fell in love with," Angel Cappa, the former Real Madrid coach complained on Saturday night. "They've lost that greatness," wrote Roberto Palomar in Marca, "this game would have been better without coaches." "Asking if Barcelona will one day return to the excellence that saw them conquer Rome and London is like asking if the Sagrada Família will ever be finished," La Vanguardia noted. "It's possible, but it's difficult too." "We felt comfortable," said Fábregas, "but maybe we did drop too much." Xavi added: "We weren't brilliant, but we were the better team and winning while you look for your best form gives you confidence."

And that's the thing. It also may not be coincidence. In the 77th minute, Martino took off Iniesta and put on Song. He later said that when Barcelona play well it is "because the players are great players" and that he tries not to intervene. Now, he did: he admitted that he wanted to get control back of the midfield. "Yes, it was defensive." Football manager in tries-to-win-football-match shame. In the 78th, Neymar's ball found Alexis Sánchez, who had come on for Fábregas, shortly before and he scored a brilliant chip, known in Spanish as a Vaseline. It was the decisive goal.

Five clásicos later, Barcelona finally won one. Ten games into the season, they are unbeaten, having equalled the best-ever start to a season. "Take that!" shouted Sport. Barcelona had stuck it up Madrid … as the cover of the Catalan daily El9 put it, "with Vaseline."

* And not just because it might literally be another chapter … ahem, cough, cough, etc and so on …

Talking points

• Oliver Torres got his first ever start for Atlético Madrid's first team … and scored after 13 seconds. David Villa got two, Diego Costa got his 11th of the season, his highest ever league total just 10 games in, and Gabi got the fifth in the 93rd minute with the last kick of the game. Atlético are just one point behind Barcelona and five ahead of Madrid but when the inevitable "do you still think you can't win the league?" question was asked, Diego Simeone changed the subject, rambling on about the substitutions he'd made instead. He did call his team "brilliant" though. Ten different players have now scored for Atléti this season.

• As for Betis, they're in the relegation zone but coach Pepe Mel is not going anywhere. He called a press conference on Monday that smelled like a resignation but then announced: "I won't be deserting: that would be a coward's act."

• BOOM! Goal of the week, not for the first time, might just have been scored by Ebert for Valladolid ...

• … Only Gio Dos Santos might have got one as good. He scored two, one in the 48th the other in the 84th and the latter was an absolute beauty. "There were moments of grandísimo football," the Villarreal coach Marcelino beamed after his side hammered Valencia 4-1.

• Rakitic. Again.

• Ten games, no wins and 23 goals conceded. Almería are in big, big trouble. And yet they really, honestly, aren't that bad … not normally at least: this weekend they were beaten 3-0 by Real Sociedad.

• Referee del Cerro Grande's official report from Elche-Granada notes that he asked the stadium announcer to tell fans to stop making monkey chants at Nyom in the 89th minute. They did so and, the referee wrote, the chants were not repeated for the "rest of the game." Which was obviously only a few minutes. Elche's federation of supporters clubs made a statement saying that they reject the chants, regret that some fans did so and lament the "negative impression" that gives of them.

Results: Rayo 0-3 Valladolid, Málaga 0-5 Celta, Barcelona 2-1 Madrid, Elche 0-1 Granada, Levante 3-0 Espanyol, Sevilla 2-1 Osasuna, Villarreal 4-1 Valencia, Real Sociedad 3-0 Almería, Atlético 5-0 Betis. Monday night: Getafe-Athletic … well, it is Athletic …
http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2013/oct/28/barcelona-clasico-madrid-la-liga
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bluenine

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Re: El Clásico: Barcelona vs Real Madrid

Post by bluenine on Mon Oct 28, 2013 9:36 pm

Isco Benny wrote:
Cristiano wrote:
Isco Benny wrote:God awful selection from Ancelotti. Ramos in mf. No Isco. Bale on the right?

Come home Gareth. He shouldn't have even started, so very clearly not fully fit but being played due to politics.
The team selection was awful. Lost interest as soon as I saw it. Bale should have come on in the 2nd half. Playing Ramos in midfield when we have spent millions in the position in the summer fucking hell.

Although considering how poor we have been Barca didn't exactly wipe us out.
Madrid a team still trying to find a system. Ancelotti strikes me as the kind of manager who will bend over if instructed.  That selection was incredibly bizarre. The title is lost but if Ancelotti moulds all the pieces into the correct system,  they'll be bloody awesome. Going to take time though, and no club is less patient than Madrid.
I don't know. The Real reminds me of Inter of the late 90s/early 2000s. Some great, expensive individuals bought by a trigger happy President without much thought given to how they would fit into a team. IMO getting Bale for Ozil make Real weaker (and 50m poorer).

I am one of the few who never really rated Ancelotti as a world class manager. But he is a good manager, who knows how to deal with egocentric Presidents. Yes, he usually does what the president says, so we will never know just how much of the team selection is influenced by the President. My guess is that Perez has a big say. Which is sad, really.

But with all that interference and lack of "team", it will take Ancelotti some time before he finds his best formation... 10 games is too early to judge.
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blutgraetsche

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Re: El Clásico: Barcelona vs Real Madrid

Post by blutgraetsche on Mon Oct 28, 2013 10:15 pm

Fortunately, Carlo knew that he had joined the bastion of patience and long term strategic planning when he took the job...

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Re: El Clásico: Barcelona vs Real Madrid

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