The Next England Squad

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Kimbo

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Re: The Next England Squad

Post by Kimbo on Sun Jun 22, 2014 4:50 pm

Rosicky wrote:He would get slaughter by the press here, he wouldnt stand a chance.

Yep, you may aswell appoint a German. The London press will want Redknapp, and no one else. Maybe they would accept their mate Pards.
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christmasborocooper

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Re: The Next England Squad

Post by christmasborocooper on Sun Jun 22, 2014 4:51 pm

Luis wrote:
Rosicky wrote:He would get slaughter by the press here, he wouldnt stand a chance.




Brilliant.

Let's all kiss Hodgson's arse then because the moronic media do.

Long live Hodge cheers

Literally no sense in this post.
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Luis

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Re: The Next England Squad

Post by Luis on Sun Jun 22, 2014 4:53 pm

christmasborocooper wrote:We played some attacking football Luis, many argued we played well against Italy, that's why hopes went up a bit. Your bitterness doesn't allow you to accept it. The fact the defence was quite awful and Rooney missed a sitter is not really something Hodgson could do much about, other than probably taking Cole.

You seem to be taking that "this wasn't Hodgson's fault" to mean "we all want Hodgson in charge forever". I think that might be the bitterness thing again.

And that list of potential managers you just posted is one of your more silly posts. The likelihood of any of them taking this job is so minimal. Rafa is probably the only one and even that is debatable.

The fact that anyone would want Hodgson in charge for any period of time is baffling, unjustified and a sign of incredibly low expectations.

We're sinking into the same abyss Scotland and Ireland are in with this mentality. We're England ffs, why out up with some deluded old backwards man who's never won anything to shout home about?

We attracted Capello, we can attract some of those names with the right money thrown at them.
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Rosicky

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Re: The Next England Squad

Post by Rosicky on Sun Jun 22, 2014 4:54 pm

Capello was a great success wasnt he Luis Ale

Please read that F365 article and get back to me, we have tried EVERYTHING, and they all failed <Ale>
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christmasborocooper

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Re: The Next England Squad

Post by christmasborocooper on Sun Jun 22, 2014 4:55 pm

Luis wrote:
christmasborocooper wrote:We played some attacking football Luis, many argued we played well against Italy, that's why hopes went up a bit. Your bitterness doesn't allow you to accept it. The fact the defence was quite awful and Rooney missed a sitter is not really something Hodgson could do much about, other than probably taking Cole.

You seem to be taking that "this wasn't Hodgson's fault" to mean "we all want Hodgson in charge forever". I think that might be the bitterness thing again.

And that list of potential managers you just posted is one of your more silly posts. The likelihood of any of them taking this job is so minimal. Rafa is probably the only one and even that is debatable.

The fact that anyone would want Hodgson in charge for any period of time is baffling, unjustified and a sign of incredibly low expectations.

We're sinking into the same abyss Scotland and Ireland are in with this mentality. We're England ffs, why out up with some deluded old backwards man who's never won anything to shout home about?

We attracted Capello, we can attract some of those names with the right money thrown at them.

Enjoyed Capello's last campaign did you?
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Luis

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Re: The Next England Squad

Post by Luis on Sun Jun 22, 2014 4:57 pm

Rosicky wrote:Capello was a great success wasnt he Luis Ale

Please read that F365 article and get back to me, we have tried EVERYTHING, and they all failed <Ale>

Capello had a poor squad to work with - the best we had to offer was Upson and Carragher right back lol!

He was destroyed in 2010 - now we have a good squad but play as poorly (more so second game) and still show too much fear of other so called big nations. Italy aren't all that yet we shat our pants at the thought of Pirlo.
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messiah

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Re: The Next England Squad

Post by messiah on Sun Jun 22, 2014 4:57 pm

I personally thought england played well,especially against italy. but its their defense and defensive cohesion that let them down
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christmasborocooper

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Re: The Next England Squad

Post by christmasborocooper on Sun Jun 22, 2014 4:58 pm

messiah wrote:I personally thought england played well,especially against italy. but its their defense and defensive cohesion that let them down

Ale
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Luis

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Re: The Next England Squad

Post by Luis on Sun Jun 22, 2014 4:58 pm

Rosicky wrote:Capello was a great success wasnt he Luis Ale

Please read that F365 article and get back to me, we have tried EVERYTHING, and they all failed <Ale>

I'll read it when you tell me evidence for Hodgson being a good manager for this squad <Ale>
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Rosicky

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Re: The Next England Squad

Post by Rosicky on Sun Jun 22, 2014 4:59 pm

Luis wrote:
Rosicky wrote:Capello was a great success wasnt he Luis Ale

Please read that F365 article and get back to me, we have tried EVERYTHING, and they all failed <Ale>

Capello had a poor squad to work with - the best we had to offer was Upson and Carragher right back lol!

He was destroyed in 2010 - now we have a good squad but play as poorly (more so second game) and still show too much fear of other so called big nations. Italy aren't all that yet we shat our pants at the thought of Pirlo.

Is the 2010 squad that much worse than the 2014? Or is there just a few more young players, but Capello could have picked some, he didnt.

Have a gander at the Russia squad which Capello has put together, i believe its the oldest one at the tournament, tells you everything you need to know.
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christmasborocooper

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Re: The Next England Squad

Post by christmasborocooper on Sun Jun 22, 2014 5:03 pm

Why wasn't Rio at the 2010 world cup?
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christmasborocooper

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Re: The Next England Squad

Post by christmasborocooper on Mon Jun 23, 2014 9:45 am

I see Harry is in the press saying players he's managed have tried to get out of England duty.. When he was at Spurs though by the sounds of it. Who's even likely there? How many England internationals did Spurs have then? Lennon, Defoe and Dawson?

Any others?


I don't find it especially unbelievable.. But if it's true I'm with Gerrard and Hodgson.. Name them.
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Roger Hunt

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Re: The Next England Squad

Post by Roger Hunt on Mon Jun 23, 2014 10:36 am

What purpose does it serve? He's trying to make a point that not all players particularly value playing for England.

I have some sympathy with the perennial bench-warmers like Defoe. It's a month of training knowing your chance of getting on the pitch is small. On the other hand, the only reason they don't come out and say it is because it'll cost them sponsorship money.
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BoBo Vieri 32

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Re: The Next England Squad

Post by BoBo Vieri 32 on Mon Jun 23, 2014 10:57 am

christmasborocooper wrote:Why wasn't Rio at the 2010 world cup?

he was injured bruv. though i like to believe he wasn't good enough to be picked.

110%

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Re: The Next England Squad

Post by 110% on Mon Jun 23, 2014 11:25 am

BoBo Vieri 32 wrote:
christmasborocooper wrote:Why wasn't Rio at the 2010 world cup?

he was injured bruv. though i like to believe he wasn't good enough to be picked.

I remember something about heksey falling on him in training or something like that Very Happy
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bluenine

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Re: The Next England Squad

Post by bluenine on Mon Jun 23, 2014 11:26 am

messiah wrote:I personally thought england played well,especially against italy. but its their defense and defensive cohesion that let them down

A lot of people here won't like to hear this, but if it were Terry instead of Jag, England would be still in this competition needing a win over Costa Rica to go through.

We all knew Hodgson's limitations as a manager before he was hired. He has done well for his capability, England were competitive against two strong opponents. I don't really understand what else were people expecting? This is England, not Brasil FFS. Better footballing nations have fared poorer.


Last edited by bluenine on Mon Jun 23, 2014 11:29 am; edited 1 time in total

110%

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Re: The Next England Squad

Post by 110% on Mon Jun 23, 2014 11:28 am

christmasborocooper wrote:I see Harry is in the press saying players he's managed have tried to get out of England duty.. When he was at Spurs though by the sounds of it. Who's even likely there? How many England internationals did Spurs have then? Lennon, Defoe and Dawson?

Any others?


I don't find it especially unbelievable.. But if it's true I'm with Gerrard and Hodgson.. Name them.

Huddlestonne?

Crouch? Seems unlikely though

110%

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Re: The Next England Squad

Post by 110% on Mon Jun 23, 2014 11:30 am

bluenine wrote:
messiah wrote:I personally thought england played well,especially against italy. but its their defense and defensive cohesion that let them down

A lot of people here won't like to hear this, but if it were Terry instead of Jag, England would be still in this competition needing a win over Costa Rica to go through.

<Ale>

I already said that, and people did not like it

More than that England should have gone with terry, cahill and cole as 3 of the back four, but hindsight is a wonderful thing
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bluenine

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Re: The Next England Squad

Post by bluenine on Mon Jun 23, 2014 11:39 am

Rosicky wrote:
Luis wrote:
Rosicky wrote:Capello was a great success wasnt he Luis Ale

Please read that F365 article and get back to me, we have tried EVERYTHING, and they all failed <Ale>

Capello had a poor squad to work with - the best we had to offer was Upson and Carragher right back lol!

He was destroyed in 2010 - now we have a good squad but play as poorly (more so second game) and still show too much fear of other so called big nations. Italy aren't all that yet we shat our pants at the thought of Pirlo.

Is the 2010 squad that much worse than the 2014? Or is there just a few more young players, but Capello could have picked some, he didnt.

Have a gander at the Russia squad which Capello has put together, i believe its the oldest one at the tournament, tells you everything you need to know.

Capello hasn't done badly at Russia for the talent and the morale issues he has inherited. They have been distinctly unlucky in group stages, but the very fact that they qualified for WC is credit to Capello.

I know its fashionable to be anti-Capello here, because of the poor 2010 WC and the defensive style of play. But IMO, the English team between 2010 & 2012 was one of the best I have ever seen, specially in terms of getting results. For the first time since England hosted Euros, England looked like a serious contender. FA fucked up there, sacking Terry without taking Capello into confidence. That was moronic, and any self respecting coach would have quit. The FA want a "yes man" and success, I am sorry, it doesn't work like that. So instead of looking for scapegoats in the team or the coach, you guys should know who is really to blame... your FA.
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christmasborocooper

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Re: The Next England Squad

Post by christmasborocooper on Mon Jun 23, 2014 12:31 pm

Roger Hunt wrote:What purpose does it serve? He's trying to make a point that not all players particularly value playing for England.

I have some sympathy with the perennial bench-warmers like Defoe. It's a month of training knowing your chance of getting on the pitch is small. On the other hand, the only reason they don't come out and say it is because it'll cost them sponsorship money.

If he doesn't name names people will assume.. It's not exactly a big pool of players.. So players will get tarred with it regardless.
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Pierre Littbarski

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Re: The Next England Squad

Post by Pierre Littbarski on Mon Jun 23, 2014 1:11 pm

bluenine wrote:
A lot of people here won't like to hear this, but if it were Terry instead of Jag, England would be still in this competition needing a win over Costa Rica to go through.

We don't mind hearing it, its just that we know it to be bullshit (anyone can look good with Chelsea defending as we saw when Cahill/Luiz won CL and down to ten at Nou Camp) as I posted a couple of days ago:

John Terry got caught out for Helder Postiga's headed goal v England in 2004 the same way that Cahill (Balotelli) and Jagielka Suarez) did at this tournament (he had been similarly at fault for Pires CL goal earlier same season before letting Nonda get in front of him to KO them)

World Cup 2006, KO stages 0-0 with Ecuador:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sw-Y6rGREOU (10 secs Laughing )

He caused trouble at WC '10 and was a shambles along side Upson, remember lack of communication with keeper in friendly v Germany too.

He scored the winner in qualifier v Ukraine but they were only level because he had hauled down Shevchenko and then headed Aliev's free-kick straight to Sheva (like he headed straight to Lavezzi in CL).

We have seen him have a very nice career at Chelsea when he defends deep and has powerful, athletic, defence-minded midifelders in front of him.

But we've seen him absolutely raped by Vucinic in the olimpico under Scolari.

We've seen him all over the place when defending high under AVB - 40% Terry's fault, 60% Luiz but 100% of the blame given to Luiz by our press.

We even saw him tell his manager that he would not play that way in televised game v Man City after Balotelli scored 1st min.

Under Di Matteo we saw him cost Chelsea big CL points by playing Quagliarella (?) on side, we saw him get slaughtered at Anfield by Carroll - fair enough if it was aerial stuff but Carroll ran him ragged.

If you are an English football journalist who rates defenders primarily on whether or not they can point and shout whilst pulling up their captain's armband (Tony Adams was "world class" Laughing ) and play with a head bandage then yes, he is great.

If I was biased I would say he was shit for England and made them worse - he wasn't and he didn't, he made absolutely no difference whatsoever.

We were just as shit with him as we were without him.

He has never been a patch in Rio '06 let alone Rio '02 - Campbell was better as well.

As far as the press are concerned, he has always been their man - they had to mute it for a while after the racism thing, but now that has died down he is still very much their man.

He is the white, working class boy next door and the only thing they love more than the white, working class boy next door is the violent, scouse, white, working class boy next door.

JOHN TERRY BEING GOOD FOR ENGLAND IS A MYTH - same as Gerrard.
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Deluded F*ck™

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Re: The Next England Squad

Post by Deluded F*ck™ on Mon Jun 23, 2014 1:36 pm

Pierre Ale

Terry was never impressive, his 2 best moments was that amazing clearance vs T & T and the faux- diving header block against Slovenia.
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Kimbo

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Re: The Next England Squad

Post by Kimbo on Mon Jun 23, 2014 1:54 pm

Roger Hunt wrote:What purpose does it serve? He's trying to make a point that not all players particularly value playing for England.

I have some sympathy with the perennial bench-warmers like Defoe. It's a month of training knowing your chance of getting on the pitch is small. On the other hand, the only reason they don't come out and say it is because it'll cost them sponsorship money.

If he names them then maybe we can hear from the players and get an insight into why our squad is so fragile compared to other countries. He could be talking bullshit though, it's Redknapp.


bluenine wrote:A lot of people here won't like to hear this, but if it were Terry instead of Jag, England would be still in this competition needing a win over Costa Rica to go through.

We all knew Hodgson's limitations as a manager before he was hired. He has done well for his capability, England were competitive against two strong opponents. I don't really understand what else were people expecting? This is England, not Brasil FFS. Better footballing nations have fared poorer.

Two strong opponents that got outplayed by Costa Rica.Erm

And I agree with Pierre on Terry, this is the problem when you get rid of a big name, people get so fixated on their club form that they forget that they didn't do it for England.

Brian 2468

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Re: The Next England Squad

Post by Brian 2468 on Mon Jun 23, 2014 2:23 pm

Pairings is such an important part in the game CB's we see them screw up the most and blame one or the other. Mertesacker was all over the place for Arsenal until he settled.

The building of partnerships is one key way for now England can improve moving on even more than Managers and coaches. After all the players have to do the business on the field and good quality playing levels start here. From that point coaches can start to create a teams system.
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Kimbo

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Re: The Next England Squad

Post by Kimbo on Mon Jun 23, 2014 2:55 pm

Brian 2468 wrote:Pairings is such an important part in the game CB's we see them screw up the most and blame one or the other. Mertesacker was all over the place for Arsenal until he settled.

The building of partnerships is one key way for now England can improve moving on even more than Managers and coaches. After all the players have to do the business on the field and good quality playing levels start here. From that point coaches can start to create a teams system.

The England defence needs an organiser, Cahill isn't it, Jones and Smalling certainly aren't it, and it's sad that people see bringing back Terry as the answer. For me the obvious answer is Shawcross, but it will never happen as long as he is at the wrong club.

110%

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Re: The Next England Squad

Post by 110% on Mon Jun 23, 2014 3:30 pm

Kimbo wrote:
Brian 2468 wrote:Pairings is such an important part in the game CB's we see them screw up the most and blame one or the other. Mertesacker was all over the place for Arsenal until he settled.

The building of partnerships is one key way for now England can improve moving on even more than Managers and coaches. After all the players have to do the business on the field and good quality playing levels start here. From that point coaches can start to create a teams system.

The England defence needs an organiser, Cahill isn't it, Jones and Smalling certainly aren't it, and it's sad that people see bringing back Terry as the answer. For me the obvious answer is Shawcross, but it will never happen as long as he is at the wrong club.

So are you saying that Shawcross is a better defender? A better organiser? Doesn't make mistakes? Fits your agenda that every player that plays at a big club is after the headlines, and every player playing for smaller clubs has more "heart" and would therefore do better?

I don't mind shawcross but I do wonder about Stoke conceding almost twice the number of goals as chelsea last season. He might have made a mistake or two in those games, maybe Pierre can find them on youtube.

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Kimbo

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Re: The Next England Squad

Post by Kimbo on Mon Jun 23, 2014 3:41 pm

110% wrote:
Kimbo wrote:
Brian 2468 wrote:Pairings is such an important part in the game CB's we see them screw up the most and blame one or the other. Mertesacker was all over the place for Arsenal until he settled.

The building of partnerships is one key way for now England can improve moving on even more than Managers and coaches. After all the players have to do the business on the field and good quality playing levels start here. From that point coaches can start to create a teams system.

The England defence needs an organiser, Cahill isn't it, Jones and Smalling certainly aren't it, and it's sad that people see bringing back Terry as the answer. For me the obvious answer is Shawcross, but it will never happen as long as he is at the wrong club.

So are you saying that Shawcross is a better defender? A better organiser? Doesn't make mistakes? Fits your agenda that every player that plays at a big club is after the headlines, and every player playing for smaller clubs has more "heart" and would therefore do better?

I don't mind shawcross but I do wonder about Stoke conceding almost twice the number of goals as chelsea last season. He might have made a mistake or two in those games, maybe Pierre can find them on youtube.


Than who? You think Terry is the future, someone that is 33 and we know(or atleast some of us do) is poor at tournaments? I suppose you don't mind about that, you probably think Gerrard should stick around.

We're at a point where Jagielka is going to need replaced, so who do you pick? Shawcross isn't top class but he is a good player, probably of a similar standard to Jagielka, except he is a captain that organises a defence that is generally decent. Although Man U let in less goals so maybe we should pick Chris Smalling. Seriously, who is your Jagielka replacement?

Not sure why you're comparing Stoke and Chelsea, if you want to only pick players from big clubs then ok, it's the definition of insanity, but I expect most people would be with you.

110%

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Re: The Next England Squad

Post by 110% on Mon Jun 23, 2014 3:48 pm

Pierre Littbarski wrote:Cole, Ferdinand and Campbell, who I don't like, performed well at tournaments.


The problem is people look around and say there are worse teams than us performing well.

Football is obviously a combination of individual brilliance and team work - its rare that a team can win Euro's without the former (Greece '04, Denmark without Laudrup '92) but you will need both to win a WC.

Costa Rica, USA, Iran have good team work but not the individual that will make a difference whereas Holland/Robben, Argentina/Messi, France/Pogba, Krauts/Kroos or Schweini could do it.

England, in the truest sense of the word, are the worst team in the whole tournament.

Its not that they are not a team as in won't fight, haven't got the spirit but that their attributes/skills sets don't fit together to make a team and Roy can't do that much about that.

Gerrard and Lampard were always goal-scoring AM's who were crowbarred in to CM together so that they are futher from goal and you lose the goal scoring threat - no real point in thsoe players if you do that.

Even now if you ask what position in a 4-5-1 is best for Rooney, Sturridge, Welbeck you have the same answer for all 3 - the 1.

So why do 3 of them start - it should be 1 surely ?

Henderson has been great in an advanced role but is tied down to CM due to lack of alternatives and because the position he played for Liverpool is close to what Rooney played v Uruguay and you can't drop a big name.


Barkley and Sterling shouldn't play because they don't have the experience so make poor decisions despite impressive talent.

However if Roy had gone in with:

2 from Barry, Carrrick, Huddlestone, Wilshere, Cleverley

Milner-Henderson-Lallana

Sturridge/Rooney/Welbeck

The same people who are slaughtering him now would slaughter him for leaving out Gerrard and whichever of Rooney and Sturridge he chose to bench.

Van Gaal is the only one who could do this impossible job and would be very amusing with our media.

I don't know if you actually understand what you write, but some things are the national team manager's job. It's what he gets paid millions to do. One of those things is to come up with the best system to suit the players he has. Roy can't do much about that??? That's his job Very Happy

As for the question of 3 from 1, again the manager's job or not?

Basically you are saying that Hodgson didn't do his job, but you'll blame the players.

110%

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Re: The Next England Squad

Post by 110% on Mon Jun 23, 2014 4:04 pm

Kimbo wrote:
110% wrote:
Kimbo wrote:
Brian 2468 wrote:Pairings is such an important part in the game CB's we see them screw up the most and blame one or the other. Mertesacker was all over the place for Arsenal until he settled.

The building of partnerships is one key way for now England can improve moving on even more than Managers and coaches. After all the players have to do the business on the field and good quality playing levels start here. From that point coaches can start to create a teams system.

The England defence needs an organiser, Cahill isn't it, Jones and Smalling certainly aren't it, and it's sad that people see bringing back Terry as the answer. For me the obvious answer is Shawcross, but it will never happen as long as he is at the wrong club.

So are you saying that Shawcross is a better defender? A better organiser? Doesn't make mistakes? Fits your agenda that every player that plays at a big club is after the headlines, and every player playing for smaller clubs has more "heart" and would therefore do better?

I don't mind shawcross but I do wonder about Stoke conceding almost twice the number of goals as chelsea last season. He might have made a mistake or two in those games, maybe Pierre can find them on youtube.


Than who? You think Terry is the future, someone that is 33 and we know(or atleast some of us do) is poor at tournaments? I suppose you don't mind about that, you probably think Gerrard should stick around.

We're at a point where Jagielka is going to need replaced, so who do you pick? Shawcross isn't top class but he is a good player, probably of a similar standard to Jagielka, except he is a captain that organises a defence that is generally decent. Although Man U let in less goals so maybe we should pick Chris Smalling. Seriously, who is your Jagielka replacement?

Not sure why you're comparing Stoke and Chelsea, if you want to only pick players from big clubs then ok, it's the definition of insanity, but I expect most people would be with you.

I was talking about terry playing in this particular tournament, not for the future. I couldn't be bothered to quote the relevant bits from yours, pierre's and TS's posts. I think gerrard should definitely retire, no point continuing while Hodgson is manager, and playing a 2-man midfield.

I don't only pick players from big clubs, I think it should be the best player regardless which club he plays for. The best players do tend to play for the biggest clubs though, so excluding those players seems idiotic. I don't have any hatred for shawcross, cleverley etc the way you do for gerrard. If they'd had the season gerrard had just had, I would have been happy to see them in the England team, and I would notice that the manager was a bit clueless about how to get the best out of them.
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Pierre Littbarski

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Re: The Next England Squad

Post by Pierre Littbarski on Mon Jun 23, 2014 4:16 pm

110% wrote:
Pierre Littbarski wrote:Cole, Ferdinand and Campbell, who I don't like, performed well at tournaments.


The problem is people look around and say there are worse teams than us performing well.

Football is obviously a combination of individual brilliance and team work - its rare that a team can win Euro's without the former (Greece '04, Denmark without Laudrup '92) but you will need both to win a WC.

Costa Rica, USA, Iran have good team work but not the individual that will make a difference whereas Holland/Robben, Argentina/Messi, France/Pogba, Krauts/Kroos or Schweini could do it.

England, in the truest sense of the word, are the worst team in the whole tournament.

Its not that they are not a team as in won't fight, haven't got the spirit but that their attributes/skills sets don't fit together to make a team and Roy can't do that much about that.

Gerrard and Lampard were always goal-scoring AM's who were crowbarred in to CM together so that they are futher from goal and you lose the goal scoring threat - no real point in thsoe players if you do that.

Even now if you ask what position in a 4-5-1 is best for Rooney, Sturridge, Welbeck you have the same answer for all 3 - the 1.

So why do 3 of them start - it should be 1 surely ?

Henderson has been great in an advanced role but is tied down to CM due to lack of alternatives and because the position he played for Liverpool is close to what Rooney played v Uruguay and you can't drop a big name.


Barkley and Sterling shouldn't play because they don't have the experience so make poor decisions despite impressive talent.

However if Roy had gone in with:

2 from Barry, Carrrick, Huddlestone, Wilshere, Cleverley

Milner-Henderson-Lallana

Sturridge/Rooney/Welbeck

The same people who are slaughtering him now would slaughter him for leaving out Gerrard and whichever of Rooney and Sturridge he chose to bench.

Van Gaal is the only one who could do this impossible job and would be very amusing with our media.

I don't know if you actually understand what you write, but some things are the national team manager's job. It's what he gets paid millions to do. One of those things is to come up with the best system to suit the players he has. Roy can't do much about that??? That's his job Very Happy

As for the question of 3 from 1, again the manager's job or not?

Basically you are saying that Hodgson didn't do his job, but you'll blame the players.

Good point, it was contradictory - but he would get slaughtered for leaving Sturridge or Rooney out like Sven/Capello would have for leaving out Lampard/Gerrard in '04, '06 & '10.

Shawcross is a hoofer - should be Cahill with Stones or Jones (they should still go U21's in Czech rep next summer) and people should be more encouraging of them.

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Re: The Next England Squad

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    Current date/time is Fri Dec 15, 2017 7:43 pm