2014 World Cup Quarter Finals

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Super Progress

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Re: 2014 World Cup Quarter Finals

Post by Super Progress on Sun Jul 06, 2014 12:49 pm

A good article on the ref in the Brazil vs Colombia game


FIFA wants refs to show fewer cards

It was bound to happen. Sooner or later the issue of refereeing was going to crop up at this World Cup. It always does.

After a very bumpy first few days, we had enjoyed a relatively smooth ride: the odd error, but no full-blown controversy and postmatch freak-out.

That was until Friday's quarterfinal between Brazil and Colombia and the performance of one Carlos Velasco Carballo.

Right now, the Spanish referee is getting it from all sides. Luiz Felipe Scolari is angry with him for not taking control of the match and thereby perhaps preventing the injury that will cost Neymar the rest of the World Cup. Colombians are annoyed by the "hack-a-James" manhunt that went on unchecked by yellow cards. Even Radamel Falcao weighed in via Twitter.

Neutrals wonder how it's possible that you call no fewer than 40 fouls -- many of them tasty ones -- before cautioning anyone. Indeed, when the first yellow was shown -- to Brazil's Thiago Silva -- it wasn't for a foul, but for interfering with Daniel Ospina's goal kick.

This being the FIFA World Cup, and FIFA being FIFA, folks are prone to see vast, occult referee conspiracies to favor one team or another. And, in the past, there certainly were some rather questionable appointments and performances.

Today, the referees' committee, the body that appoints and evaluates officials in conjunction with Massimo Busacca, the head of referees, is made up largely of ex-officials. Its chair and deputy chair come from nations not involved in the World Cup.

In the past, this wasn't the case. It was a coveted committee because it wielded power and it was filled with football administrators, rather than guys with specific refereeing experience. Bigger, more powerful nations appeared to hold more power.

There's an easy narrative embraced by some: that officials favor Brazil. After all, they hit the trifecta. They're the host nation and having the hosts go deep into the competition tends to be good for business. Plus, they're Brazil -- historically the most popular team with neutrals -- and that's good for business too. Finally, Brazil -- like other big nations -- carry a lot of weight within FIFA.

It's an easy and tempting narrative to apply to Velasco's performance, but it has some major flaws. Thiago Silva's booking was exactly the kind Velasco could have avoided with impunity. Depriving Brazil of their captain for a World Cup semifinal -- he was on a yellow from previous games -- is a huge call and not the sort of thing someone trying to aid the Selecao would do.

Two of the other big calls that went Brazil's way also stand up to scrutiny. There was an offside on Colombia's disallowed goal. And, on the penalty, when Julio Cesar brought down Carlos Bacca, there's room to debate whether it was a clear-cut denial of a goal-scoring opportunity. Bacca gets the ball past the Brazilian keeper who, at that stage, has no legal way of stopping him. But you have to consider whether the trailing defender, David Luiz, could have recovered. And whether Bacca could have reached the ball before it went out of play. Both are judgment calls, you can easily argue both ways. A red card would not have been scandalous, but neither is the fact that Velasco chose yellow.

That's the thing about Velasco, he rarely makes technical errors. He's usually in the right place at the right time and sees things correctly. The problem with him is the way he manages players, particularly Friday night, when the game clearly got away from him.

Before we crucify him, we need to consider the directive that FIFA gave referees ahead of this World Cup. Busacca asked them to use yellow and red cards only as a last resort and to try to let the game flow as much as possible -- a suggestion that's been heeded.

Why did he do this?

Several reasons.

First of all, to favor a more flowing game and, thereby, goals. (There's plenty of data that suggests a correlation between cautions and scoring: the lower the first, the higher the second.)

Another was to limit suspensions. The presumption was that referees should do what they can -- again, within the limits of common sense -- to avoid players getting banned because, ultimately, we want to see the best players on the pitch. This is especially important in a shorter, knockout tournament.

If, say, Lionel Messi had kicked out late in the quarterfinals, picked up a yellow to go with a previous one and was suspended for the semifinal, it wouldn't do much for the team that suffered his infraction. But it'd be a huge boost to whoever faces Argentina in the semifinal.

Finally, Busacca belongs to the school of thought that believes that referees need, whenever possible, to manage games through talking and psychology. A stern verbal rebuke can achieve as much as a card. The best referees are masters at this and it's the direction many want to go.

The problem with Velasco is that he's not that type of official. He has his own style and personality. He ordinarily asserts his authority through cards, not by communication. Indeed, go through Brazil vs. Colombia and you'll see very few instances of him addressing players, despite the fact that he could easily communicate with all of them.

Good referees know that FIFA directives aren't gospel. Gospel are the laws of the game and their own common sense and experience. Yet, at the same time, the referees are stuck in a conundrum between what they believe is right and what they're asked to do and, sometimes, they conflict. In Velasco's case, he embraced the "shy away from cards" directive but not the "match management through communication" order.

The result was the car crash we all witnessed.

You can see why FIFA issue directives. They want some level of consistency in style, while favouring attacking football and entertainment. Yet this time they probably went too far. A World Cup is no place for experimentation, particularly when dealing with officials who spend most of their time with their national federations, which may have different ideas of how to officiate.

All that said, despite the controversy, this has not been a horrible World Cup for match officials, relative to past ones. Mistakes were made -- some of them avoidable -- but the overall balance thus far leans to the positive. Fingers crossed that doesn't change in the few games we have left ... the ones that really matter.
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Antarion

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Re: 2014 World Cup Quarter Finals

Post by Antarion on Sun Jul 06, 2014 12:59 pm

Like i've said several times already, I'm all for fewer yellow cards, cause i don't like suspending players for two yellows. But its gone too far thtis cup. FIFA/refs need to find a middle ground or change the rules for suspension (which is nearly impossible, cause a knockout cup has far too few games for each team)





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Super Progress

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Re: 2014 World Cup Quarter Finals

Post by Super Progress on Sun Jul 06, 2014 5:47 pm

Wilmots and Van Buyten not taking this defeat with grace  Very Happy 


Wilmots unimpressed by 'ordinary' Argentina

The Belgium coach could not hide his frustration after his team exited the World Cup at the quarter-final stage against the South Americans

Belgium coach Marc Wilmots has labelled Argentina “an ordinary side” after they knocked the Europeans out of the World Cup on Saturday.

Gonzalo Higuain’s first-half strike proved the difference in their quarter-final clash in Brasilia with Belgium offering little going forward until the latter stages when they resorted to long-ball tactics to try to force an equaliser.

Even though he insisted he was “losing gracefully”, Wilmots also felt Italian referee Nicola Rizzoli was a factor in his team’s exit.

He said: “It’s hard to know how we lost. Firstly, we saw how experienced the Argentines are. They affected the rhythm of the game, breaking it up, taking 30 seconds to take a throw-in. And they were allowed to do it.

We weren’t impressed by Argentina, they’re an ordinary side. But we lost.”

Wilmots felt Rizzoli should have done more to control Lionel Messi, in particular, after claiming the Barcelona star had got away with numerous fouls.

“He committed three or four fouls and the referee did nothing. Messi is a formidable player. He holds the ball well when they need that,” he said.

Wilmots did find time to praise his own side’s efforts, however, adding: “I’m proud of the lads. They put in a lot of effort and I can’t say anything bad about them. I want to thank the guys for how they fought. There were people crying in the dressing room.

“I think we made mistakes, but I always look to the team. We showed we’re a good side, but they didn’t let us have any space.”


Van Buyten: Germany would easily beat Argentina

The defender was unimpressed with the South American side despite Lionel Messi & Co's victory over the Red Devils, which sent them crashing out of the tournament

Belgium defender Daniel van Buyten says Germany would easily beat Argentina, after his team was eliminated from the World Cup at the hands of the Albiceleste.

Gonzalo Higuain's first-half strike was enough to send his side through to the semi-finals for the first time since 1990, but Van Buyten was not impressed by the South Americans, despite their victory.

"This is bitter for Belgium," the 36-year-old told ZDF. "We lacked experience.

"This is a big tournament and experience is very helpful in these occasions.

"Of course Argentina have superb players, but I think a team like Germany would easily beat them."

Meanwhile, team captain Vincent Kompany was keen to take the positives from Belgium's World Cup campaign.

"We really gave it our best," he told Sporza. "It was a wonderful adventure for us.

"The most important thing is that we gave everything. Maybe in four years' time in Russia we will get another shot.

"We have the youngest squad of the tournament, we must not forget that. Maybe we will have more luck in Russia, and we will definitely have more experience then."
Hardly a mean spirited game so I wonder why they react like this.
They are right about Argentina but it applies to themselves as well. Would have been interesting if Argentina didn't get that early goal out of nothing.
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Fey

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Re: 2014 World Cup Quarter Finals

Post by Fey on Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:15 pm

Super Progress wrote:
Axeslammer wrote:
BoBo Vieri 32 wrote:Axe and Fey are sceptical because they hate Van Gaal and want him to be shown up.

Not true in my case.

Like most Dutchies, I think Van Gaal is an idiot and a very unlikable person....but that he's also an absolutely brilliant manager.

I still can't believe that we made the final four with this crap selection, with at least 2-3 passengers for Oranje on the pitch every match....and absolutely *nothing* on the bench.

But I'm enjoying the ride so far ok
 cheers 
Axe is Team Progress

This a huge convert for us and we have Van Gaal+patriotism to thank(even if it is temporary). For the remainder of this WC Fey should be sent elsewhere:




Stinger
The fact that he didn't give the second yellow to the Costa Rica player was utterly pathetic. It was so obvious that he didn't dare to do it. He was a real coward. I can only vaguely remember the penalty incident with Martins Indi but I don't think it was a big one, although it could have been given. Same with the second yellow for Indi.

I will lock you and your progressive mob up, and let you wear this.



And let you watch







And at the end of it all I will shout:



You will be broken down, yet out of your ashed will be arise something much, much more beautiful

ok
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Super Progress

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Re: 2014 World Cup Quarter Finals

Post by Super Progress on Mon Jul 07, 2014 12:32 am

That is certainly a cruel punishment

of course my spirit will never be broken because Progress is deep in me.

And once I get out...

All the dissenters will be hauled out of their homes. You will wake up in a darkly lit room with a tatoo on your body:

"If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face — forever"

and huge murals everywhere



Cruyff and Guardiola will be hung in the city square

5 July 1982 will be the day of pride because that is when Italy beat Brazil in 1982 and Zico proclaimed that Football died

All day you will be educated on the Progressive victories of football history

You will see how Total Football was born to the world



...And promptly killed on the same occasion

We will teach our new converts how we treat players who divert from the Progressive way of playing by showing these masterclasses





And end the day with The Modern Progressive classic courtesy of one King Mourinho




"Everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big BrotherProgress"

Formerly known as sheva7

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Re: 2014 World Cup Quarter Finals

Post by Formerly known as sheva7 on Mon Jul 07, 2014 6:33 am

Finally it seems that there is a consensus about the fact the referee was shit for both sides. Judging by the comments made during the match, people here thought that the referee was lenient only with brazilian players, that brazilians were villains and colombians were victims, that FIFA wanted to help Brazil, etc. This board seemed an argentinian, english or spanish newspaper comment section. I was disappointed and expected more from you.

Luiz was kicked in the ribs by Téo Gutierrez and the referee did nothing. Also Zuniga didn't get booked after kicking Hulk's knee in the first half. Valencia and Marchisio got a red for less than that. Yet there wasn't a single comment on that.





I can understand if you do not want to see Brazil winning the title. They do not have talent. They play ugly. Their fans are awful. Some of their players cheat. Scolari says a lot of crap. I would never support this brazilian side if I were a neutral. I have no problem if you want to see Brazil losing because I would have the same feeling if I were you, but nothing annoys me more than reading that Brazil is being helped by the ref when nothing can prove that, as if this is Korea 2002 all over again. That jap gave that penalty that never happened against Croatia and now the reason behind any brazilian success is FIFA. It's ridiculous.

I really hope we can move on now.
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DD

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Re: 2014 World Cup Quarter Finals

Post by DD on Mon Jul 07, 2014 10:45 am

Formerly known as sheva7 wrote:Finally it seems that there is a consensus about the fact the referee was shit for both sides.
It was there all along.
Formerly known as sheva7 wrote:Judging by the comments made during the match, people here thought that the referee was lenient only with brazilian players, that brazilians were villains and colombians were victims, that FIFA wanted to help Brazil, etc.
You're really only looking at from the angle you want(ed) to see. See above.
Formerly known as sheva7 wrote: This board seemed an argentinian, english or spanish newspaper comment section. I was disappointed and expected more from you.
Yet again, the above two points. Also, even anyone were to think like that, there wouldn't be anything inherently wrong with the right to have that opinion. Foolish, yes (regarding the Brazil/FIFA conspiracies)

Formerly known as sheva7 wrote:Luiz was kicked in the ribs by Téo Gutierrez and the referee did nothing. Also Zuniga didn't get booked after kicking Hulk's knee in the first half. Valencia and Marchisio got a red for less than that. Yet there wasn't a single comment on that.
I remember seeing those fouls, and I might have said something about it (I think so), or I might not. Or someone else did, or didn't. There were many more fouls from both sides, comparable to your examples, that were 'unreported'. The game was so badly refereed that if we were to have to 'report' every foul and bad refereeing decision in that match we would have had 30 pages of complaints. People just accepted it was part and parcel of that match, and simply didn't complain about everything.
And since when did this thread became the official recording page? We're casually commenting, not officially taking minutes (minutos).

If you're going to be peeved because not all decisions against your side are commented on than perhaps you shouldn't take it so personal. It's silly to get worked up about that. Particularly in this case, where people never really were against Brazil, but complaining about the clusterfuck the ref was making.

When one side is getting the majority of the decisions (e.g. 50/50's) in their favour, people are rightfully complaining. When the ref gets clear decisions completely wrong, people complain louder. This doesn't automatically mean that the people complaining are against (or even hate) the side that benefits the most.
Initially Brazil were getting all the calls, so when the complaints were pouring in, this is why it appeared like that. When the ref was fucking up all decisions (on both sides), people were still complaining. He was fucking up so badly, that people were laughing it off, instead of taking minutes .

Formerly known as sheva7 wrote:
I really hope we can move on now.
Indeed
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Deluded F*ck™

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Re: 2014 World Cup Quarter Finals

Post by Deluded F*ck™ on Mon Jul 07, 2014 11:26 am

lol! @ Fey vs Super

You extremist nut jobs.
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blutgraetsche

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Re: 2014 World Cup Quarter Finals

Post by blutgraetsche on Mon Jul 07, 2014 12:09 pm

Germany in 1974 was anything but "Team Progress" - it was a "total football" team also, albeit in a slightly different interpretation compared to the Dutch.
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blutgraetsche

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Re: 2014 World Cup Quarter Finals

Post by blutgraetsche on Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:47 pm

WTF?

Kompany: We expected to reach final

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=intl:1936150

Now I get why Fey is so much on love with Belgium - they are the new Holland! The arrogance is staggering - haven't achieved fuck all yet, but expecting to reach the final. Unbelievable...
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Fey

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Re: 2014 World Cup Quarter Finals

Post by Fey on Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:52 pm

Bar Spain, and perhaps Germany, who could rival their squad?
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blutgraetsche

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Re: 2014 World Cup Quarter Finals

Post by blutgraetsche on Mon Jul 07, 2014 9:50 pm

That's the completely wrong way to look at it. Holland have a better team, Germany, Brazil, hell even Argentina or France, not to mention the likes of Spain and Italy if in normal form. Belgium have a lot of players playing for big Premier League clubs, but that does not make them world beaters.

How much CL experience do those players have? How many CL titles have they won? But more importantly, what have they achieved on the international level yet?

Hell, read Barney Ronay's take on it and not mine...

http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2014/jul/07/brazil-2014-premier-league-world-cup
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Kimbo

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Re: 2014 World Cup Quarter Finals

Post by Kimbo on Mon Jul 07, 2014 10:11 pm

blutgraetsche wrote:WTF?

Kompany: We expected to reach final

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=intl:1936150

Now I get why Fey is so much on love with Belgium - they are the new Holland! The arrogance is staggering - haven't achieved fuck all yet, but expecting to reach the final. Unbelievable...

Fucking disgusting that they had confidence in their ability, should be ashamed of themselves.
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debaser

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Re: 2014 World Cup Quarter Finals

Post by debaser on Mon Jul 07, 2014 10:19 pm

Belgium's main problems were Hazard failing to show up and no reliable striker (Lukaku and Origi both too raw/inconsistent). the player in Belgium's squad with most international goals (10)...Van Buyten! this is obviously partly down to average age, but nobody has a particularly impressive goalscoring record for them (Hazard 6 in 50, Mirallas 9 in 48, Lukaku 7 in 32, De Bruyne 5 in 24). the side they were playing in QF could afford to leave Aguero on the bench, while Belgium are starting a 19 year old striker with 1 international goal - good squad in some areas but clearly lacking in others.
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Kimbo

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Re: 2014 World Cup Quarter Finals

Post by Kimbo on Mon Jul 07, 2014 10:21 pm

Their main problem was having a failed politician as a coach.
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blutgraetsche

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Re: 2014 World Cup Quarter Finals

Post by blutgraetsche on Tue Jul 08, 2014 6:45 am

debaser wrote:Belgium's main problems were Hazard failing to show up and no reliable striker (Lukaku and Origi both too raw/inconsistent). the player in Belgium's squad with most international goals (10)...Van Buyten! this is obviously partly down to average age, but nobody has a particularly impressive goalscoring record for them (Hazard 6 in 50, Mirallas 9 in 48, Lukaku 7 in 32, De Bruyne 5 in 24). the side they were playing in QF could afford to leave Aguero on the bench, while Belgium are starting a 19 year old striker with 1 international goal - good squad in some areas but clearly lacking in others.

How many chances did Belgium create vs. Argentina for their strikers to convert?

Those stats basically confirm their lack of experience on the international level, which makes their expectation to reach the final even more staggering. Compare that to Robben and his insistance to focus on one match at the time, for example. Robben that is, a proven, genuine world class player.

Kompany makes it sound as if Argentina were just some small hindrance on their way to the final. If that really is their attitude, I guarantee you that their "golden generation" is going to win fuck all.
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debaser

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Re: 2014 World Cup Quarter Finals

Post by debaser on Tue Jul 08, 2014 1:05 pm

blutgraetsche wrote:
debaser wrote:Belgium's main problems were Hazard failing to show up and no reliable striker (Lukaku and Origi both too raw/inconsistent). the player in Belgium's squad with most international goals (10)...Van Buyten! this is obviously partly down to average age, but nobody has a particularly impressive goalscoring record for them (Hazard 6 in 50, Mirallas 9 in 48, Lukaku 7 in 32, De Bruyne 5 in 24). the side they were playing in QF could afford to leave Aguero on the bench, while Belgium are starting a 19 year old striker with 1 international goal - good squad in some areas but clearly lacking in others.

How many chances did Belgium create vs. Argentina for their strikers to convert?

Those stats basically confirm their lack of experience on the international level, which makes their expectation to reach the final even more staggering. Compare that to Robben and his insistance to focus on one match at the time, for example. Robben that is, a proven, genuine world class player.

Kompany makes it sound as if Argentina were just some small hindrance on their way to the final. If that really is their attitude, I guarantee you that their "golden generation" is going to win fuck all.

well that was the first problem I mentioned: Hazard failing to show up. he should be their main creative force and he had a poor tournament.
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blutgraetsche

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Re: 2014 World Cup Quarter Finals

Post by blutgraetsche on Tue Jul 08, 2014 1:22 pm

Expecting one player to provide the creativity is the problem to begin with. You don't just need the final ball, but the pass(es) before that. Belgium's midfield isn't all that and was clearly exposed in the Argentina match.
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Kimbo

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Re: 2014 World Cup Quarter Finals

Post by Kimbo on Tue Jul 08, 2014 2:24 pm

Argentina were shite, the only thing of Belgium's that was exposed was a lack of a gameplan.
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blutgraetsche

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Re: 2014 World Cup Quarter Finals

Post by blutgraetsche on Tue Jul 08, 2014 2:37 pm

If Argentina were shite, it's even worse for the "most talented squad of players" to look so inept and toothless, with or without a "game plan".

But that wasn't the point. The point was the ridiculous degree of entitlement, with not much to back it up.
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Kimbo

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Re: 2014 World Cup Quarter Finals

Post by Kimbo on Tue Jul 08, 2014 3:17 pm

blutgraetsche wrote:If Argentina were shite, it's even worse for the "most talented squad of players" to look so inept and toothless, with or without a "game plan".

But that wasn't the point. The point was the ridiculous degree of entitlement, with not much to back it up.

Well none of the semi-finalists have been much good. As entertaining as the cup has been at times the quality is low, it's persuaded me that we need to reduce the size of our leagues and cup competitions in Europe. It's a fantasy as money rules everything, which is the reason I now see international football as the more valid competition, club football may aswell be F1.

I don't think there is a sense of entitlement, the first step to winning is believing you will win, it's a logical approach for a professional athlete.
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christmasborocooper

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Re: 2014 World Cup Quarter Finals

Post by christmasborocooper on Tue Jul 08, 2014 5:51 pm

I wouldn't call it entitlement either.. I don't think they feel entitled to a spot in the final. Delusional, I could see how you could call them that. But even then, I really agree with Kimbo. These players are top level, they need to believe they can win or what's the point?
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blutgraetsche

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Re: 2014 World Cup Quarter Finals

Post by blutgraetsche on Tue Jul 08, 2014 6:08 pm

To believe that you can win and believing that Argentina, a two times world champion (Belgium - sweet FA yet) and a current side of world class players, just to be hindrance on the way to the final, are two different things.

The players probably believed their own hype and that is never positive.
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Kimbo

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Re: 2014 World Cup Quarter Finals

Post by Kimbo on Tue Jul 08, 2014 6:09 pm

When did this Argentina team win the world cup?
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blutgraetsche

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Re: 2014 World Cup Quarter Finals

Post by blutgraetsche on Tue Jul 08, 2014 6:14 pm

Never. But they've at least reached a few 1/4 finals yet. Plus, they have a number of CL winners in their Ranks and a ton of international experience. What do Belgium have?
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Kimbo

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Re: 2014 World Cup Quarter Finals

Post by Kimbo on Tue Jul 08, 2014 6:18 pm

blutgraetsche wrote:Never. But they've at least reached a few 1/4 finals yet. Plus, they have a number of CL winners in their Ranks and a ton of international experience. What do Belgium have?

A strong squad. I'm sure if they had won a cup in 1974 or something it would justify their self-belief. Rolling Eyes 

What Belgium lacked was a good manager with a plan, Wilmots is an amateur and it showed.
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Re: 2014 World Cup Quarter Finals

Post by Jaime on Tue Jul 08, 2014 6:31 pm

It's a fine line between believing the "hype" and believing you can do the impossible. Look at what Atletico accomplished. It all started because Simeone gave them a belief. He told them they had just as much a right to win the league as Real Madrid or Barcelona.
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blutgraetsche

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Re: 2014 World Cup Quarter Finals

Post by blutgraetsche on Tue Jul 08, 2014 6:38 pm

One of Simeone's most important rules was to focus on one match at the time, that's fundamentally different to what Kompany was saying and actually just proves my point.
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Kimbo

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Re: 2014 World Cup Quarter Finals

Post by Kimbo on Tue Jul 08, 2014 6:47 pm

I just don't see the problem, maybe it's because I watch boxing where having an arrogant winning mentality isn't frowned upon, it's expected. Most of Belgium's players didn't even play poorly against Argentina IMO, they just lacked coherent plans, that is the coaches fault. If they get in top manager soon I can see them winning in 2018. <Ale>

110%

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Re: 2014 World Cup Quarter Finals

Post by 110% on Tue Jul 08, 2014 7:57 pm

So would it have been ok if England players had said they expected to reach the final? It's just self-belief, winning mentality etc etc. Nope, they'd get slaughtered. So why is it ok for Kompany to say it?

There is one very clear problem with what Kompany said. He said "we win the game and then we go to the final".

Er no Vincent, you go to the semi-final Wink.

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