A German lesson

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mongrel hawk

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A German lesson

Post by mongrel hawk on Tue Jul 08, 2014 11:07 pm

What a massacre FFS!

Congratulations to all Germans here. I watched the game with my German brother-in-law (a Stuttgart fan). He's so nice a guy he stopped celebrating after the third goal and he's even looking a bit sad right now. But that's not fair. I'll take him to drink tons of beer and celebrate this great victory with my sister and my wife.

Cheers!  <Ale> 
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blutgraetsche

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Re: A German lesson

Post by blutgraetsche on Tue Jul 08, 2014 11:22 pm

That's how we are, the German commentator was almost embarassed. <Ale>

Thank you and cheer up, I know that pain myself (2006). I know you will be back.
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Jaime

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Re: A German lesson

Post by Jaime on Wed Jul 09, 2014 3:54 am

Fair play, Todo. A shame it had to end that way.

So what is the future? I saw Scolari say that most of the current team would go to Russia in 4 years. Like 14-15 of the current team or something like this. I really can't believe that would be the case.

Neymar, presumably, will recover and continue on. Oscar will be there most likely. Thiago Silva would only be 33 which isn't so old for a defender.

But would you start from scratch or who from the current group would you keep? Interested to know what you think. Sheva too.
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Allez les rouges

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Re: A German lesson

Post by Allez les rouges on Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:56 am

Thanks Todo – painful to see the despair of the fans yesterday, this Brazilian team were well on the way to becoming as dislikeable as Chelsea or United for me, but that's the very opposite of the fans, the country and the people, who deserve a hell of a lot better. Never quite seen anything like the olé-ing from the home crowd before the consolation goal at the end...

You will be back Ale
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blutgraetsche

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Re: A German lesson

Post by blutgraetsche on Wed Jul 09, 2014 6:06 pm

Barney Ronay's very interesting take on things from the Brazilian perspective, worth a read...


Brazil World Cup humiliation by Germany should serve as a call to arms

Brazil’s jogo collapso could – and should – mean some long overdue changes for Brazil’s neglected football infrastructure

Well, at least that’s one thing settled. It turns out Brazil’s footballers do know how to entertain after all. Watching the action in São Paulo city centre – the term is used loosely: this was not so much action as a formal, structured dance through Brazil’s football team – Germany’s stunning 7-1 semi-final victory passed in a kind of daze. “Cinco o seis? Cinco o sete?” called the yellow-shirted head waiter in a busy Paulista restaurant, curious more than anything else, craning his neck around a pillar to ascertain the exact scoreline in what was already after half an hour the most humiliating World Cup host nation defeat of all time.

In fact it is hard to think of a more eviscerating defeat in any sport, ever. World Cup favourites; hosts at a $12bn home World Cup. Plus of course throw in the preceding bluster, the ludicrous liturgical furore over Neymar’s injury. Even from a notably mawkish and overblown group of footballers, this was a notably mawkish and overblown complete sporting implosion. But then Brazil have always been innovators in football. This is the home of sports science, the bicycle kick, the flying full-back. And now here was a performance that went beyond the standard sporting. Welcome to Brazil, home of the jogo collapso.

Long into the night Brazilian TV continued to analyse the match helplessly, like a broken robot still desperately trying to tidy up after the apocalypse. Well, there’s some space here behind the full-back. And look here how he lets his man run away from him. When you’re doing this for the sixth goal of seven then it is probably time to put away the light pen and the split screen and just sit down and stare at the floor for a bit. Or hum quietly. Or have a quick pray. Actually, no, not that. Not just now, eh?

It is always sensible to resist the urge to extrapolate too much from sport, which most of the time simply mimics the shapes and storylines of real human drama. A complete sporting collapse is not a real collapse. This is mimesis, entertainment, operetta. Not that this will stop people trying, and books will duly be commissioned and cinematic reproductions cast of the Mineiraoazo, the Allemãonacion, the Belo-Blow, the Horror-zonte. How exactly do you lose a World Cup semi-final 7-1?

There is of course no sensible answer to this, as even the scoreline itself is a kind of sporting joke (it is above all a very funny result: in São Paulo the most notable sight was Brazilians laughing and giggling as those second half goals went in). Perhaps a good way to start is to have a stab at what didn’t happen here, to rule out the improbable and the hysterical.

Firstly, the collapse at the Mineirão was not a self-induced punishment, a cosmic moral judgement on Brazil’s “tactical fouling” in the last match against Colombia. This is a classic misguided sporting morality narrative: reverse-intuitive, outcome-specific, hanging by a tangible thread of random events. This moral aspect – the divinely corrective Germano-thrashing – just doesn’t stand up to reasoning. If it were true then the opposite would also be true: if defeat equals moral poverty, then by the same token victory must be evidence of purity, good grace and divine moral standing. Which, of course, has never been the case in sport or life.

Secondly Brazil didn’t lose because its players are hysterical princelings, cowards, pigeon-chested weaklings. It is worth looking at this from a wider perspective. It is impossible to become a successful Brazilian footballer without a degree of struggle. Almost every player in that Brazil team has emerged from hardship, genuine or relative, and some were born into world-class poverty. There is a huge amount of human wastage involved in producing just one top class Brazilian footballer and those who make it have achieved something remarkable. The idea that Germany’s first world college boys, products of the most first world football system ever devised, have exposed the basic mental weakness of these survivors of terrible schooling and inadequate resources – what chance did they have against a tie and a crest? – is clearly a non-starter for many reasons.

Thirdly Brazil didn’t lose 7-1 because it is a nation on the verge of hysterical collapse. Despite the impression given by the TV pictures, Brazil was never going to grind to a halt, or come weeping into the streets. The players were horribly keyed up within their sealed environment. The media were obsessed with the players being horribly keyed up. But Brazil itself? People were drinking and laughing and chatting away in the bars of São Paulo on Tuesday night. It is a patronising myth that Brazilians are dementedly obsessed with football, just as it is a ludicrous simplification to suggest the original Maracanazo created “a scar” on the “national consciousness” (there is, let’s be honest, no such thing as “a national consciousness”). People cry in the stadium when they lose, then go home and stop crying just like anywhere else, and without samba dancing on the way, or weeping about Neymar, or worshipping Pelé. Update: Brazil still not collapsing.

Beyond this Brazil didn’t lose 7-1 because of the various threads of corruption, theft of public money, and abandoned infrastructure that have swirled like a black cloud around this light and shade World Cup, as misleading a connection as the equivalent argument that Argentina won the 1978 World Cup because its military junta was right to suppress its people and concoct a tournament out of misery. Plus of course there are plenty of other Brazilian sins apparently in need of punishment. Chuck in the weeping and praying among players, the racial homogeneity of Brazil’s stadium-filling middle classes. This is all adding up. Frankly, it’s a miracle the team bus wasn’t swallowed up by a tidal wave on its way back from the stadium.

And so back to Earth. It is still necessary to find some kind of explanation in all this. And of course this must contain a pinch of all of the above, a cumulative sense of cuts and nicks and debilitating wrong turns. Throw in a group of mediocre players unimaginatively managed and Brazil were bad: but were they 7-1 bad?

This is where the sense of some more precise and localised group collapse presents itself. Hidden away in their mountain retreat, removed from the perceived hysteria of the country (which was not hysterical), Brazil’s players seem to have fomented a bespoke group hysteria all their own. There was something profoundly unnerving at times about the whole spectacle in Belo Horizonte. Brazil’s players were simply not there. They were an absence, utterly disconnected. No doubt there is a fascinating research study to be made here into self-contained group dysfunction, the way in which external pressure, bouncing off the walls, can magnify until it crowds out everything else. This probably did happen to Brazil’s players, a result of poor management (Scolari looked flustered, wild, angry at times) and the combined pressure of a team that simply wasn’t good enough to win, and also deep down knew it wasn’t good enough to win.

Beyond this the structural problems in Brazil and Brazilian football will continue to exist whatever the score against Germany. It is worth remembering, for what it’s worth, that Brazil is still a country in a state of energetic flux. Things do not just look after themselves here. If something is neglected it will tend to fester, and Brazilian football has been neglected. The domestic league is weak. The academy structures, which must eventually take the place of just allowing poverty to make footballers for you, are – according to those who know – totally inadequate compared to the best European countries.

And in many ways there is an unignorable narrative circularity about a European team coming to Brazil and thrashing its Seleção 7-1. Europe has already flooded in to fill the gaps here. Such has been the lure of European money that almost all of Brazil’s best players have tended to leave at an early age. David Luiz, Marcelo, Hulk and Dani Alves and Willian all played a single year or less in Brazil before moving overseas, while now the best 15- or 16-year-olds already have contracts with European clubs. In a way it is even quite funny that Europe should spend the last two decades finessing its disorientating allure, displacing Brazil’s footballers, staffing its teams with these hardy travellers, then return to Brazil’s own Copa das Copas with the best resourced, most strikingly first world football team in history and annihilate Brazil in a home semi-final. Take that, new world!

So, back to the jogo collapso, and the post-jogo collapso. It is to be hoped that the scale of the loss will lead to a more reasoned, non-hysterical analysis of the wider problems. The complete resignation of the Brazilian FA management tier and their replacement by benign, entirely reasonable experts in sporting administration would be a good start. For now though, this thrilling, baffling, continental-scale World Cup rolls on, now with its own bespoke note of theatrical – not to mention statistical – intrigue.

The holders Spain were also eliminated from this World Cup by a 7-1 scoreline, in that case across their first two matches. Now the hosts have done the same over 90 minutes. As Brazil – calm stoic Brazil – will confirm, this is still only football, and only a World Cup. It may not have cured homelessness, or purged Brazilian society of innate inequality and corruption that goes back to the Napoleonic wars in Europe, and which reflects in a single nation the basic spread of wealth and power across the world, a state of much for the few and little for the many that is the case everywhere. It has at least shone a light into some unexpected corners, as it did again on Tuesday night in another moment of grand but still somehow opaque sporting drama.

http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2014/jul/09/brazil-world-cup-humiliation-germany-should-serve-call-arms
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mongrel hawk

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Re: A German lesson

Post by mongrel hawk on Thu Jul 10, 2014 12:11 am

Yeh, it's time to think it over and have some changes. And Germany is a very good example, they are building this team since 2006/2008. That's why the name of the thread is a German lesson. We gotta learn with them.  ok 

Germany now is the team that scored more goals in WCs, and Klose is the biggest scorer.

In the final, Germany will have the support of Brazilian fans as a whole, you can be sure of that. There's no sorrow at all from Brazilians towards Germans. Germany did what they had to do, and did well and fairly. There's only respect and admiration from Brazilian fans and media.
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mongrel hawk

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Re: A German lesson

Post by mongrel hawk on Thu Jul 10, 2014 12:26 am

Why is the South America vs Europe thread closed?

If it's because of Fey's jokes, I don't mind them at all. It's alright for me.  <Ale> 

By the way, it's 8-3 by now. But of course the most important thing is to win the WC.
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Antarion

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Re: A German lesson

Post by Antarion on Thu Jul 10, 2014 12:29 am

Wasn't it you todo who predicted a Argentina WC victory in Brazil a year ago or sth?

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mongrel hawk

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Re: A German lesson

Post by mongrel hawk on Thu Jul 10, 2014 12:32 am

Antarion wrote:Wasn't it you todo who predicted a Argentina WC victory in Brazil a year ago or sth?


Yeh, I guess so. I thought it was Argentina time now. Brazil performance in the confed cup fooled me though.
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Fey

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Re: A German lesson

Post by Fey on Thu Jul 10, 2014 12:34 am

No, I closed it myself because Kimbo asked!
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mongrel hawk

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Re: A German lesson

Post by mongrel hawk on Thu Jul 10, 2014 12:36 am

Fey wrote:No, I closed it myself because Kimbo asked!

Why did he ask?
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Kimbo

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Re: A German lesson

Post by Kimbo on Thu Jul 10, 2014 12:40 am

I was joking tbf.
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mongrel hawk

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Re: A German lesson

Post by mongrel hawk on Thu Jul 10, 2014 12:41 am

Kimbo wrote:I was joking tbf.

So open it again, Fey.  Very Happy 
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Fey

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Re: A German lesson

Post by Fey on Thu Jul 10, 2014 12:59 am

I opened it AGES ago already!
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blutgraetsche

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Re: A German lesson

Post by blutgraetsche on Thu Jul 10, 2014 10:19 am

Germany told not to 'ridicule' Brazil

Germany have revealed that their players were told not to embarrass Brazil by coasting through the second half of Tuesday's World Cup semifinal.

With Joachim Low's side having gone 5-0 in front before half an hour had been played on an astonishing night in Belo Horizonte, the players were told not to "ridicule" the shattered hosts after the break.

Team manager Oliver Bierhoff said he had urged them to continue to "play seriously," and two more goals were added as Germany won 7-1.

Bierhoff told German TV network ARD: "It was, at least in parts, a humiliation. At half-time, we told the players to be respectful with the result and not ridicule Brazil.

"We told them to just keep playing seriously -- and our players did just that."

At the final whistle, Germany players comforted their distressed opponents, and Bierhoff said: "They did that by intuition. Some of them know each other from their clubs, are teammates, and we've also gone through the pressure of being hosts in 2006. You could see that pressure with the Brazilians."

Germany's win was the biggest ever in a World Cup semifinal, and could have been worse when Mesut Ozil missed a late chance to make it 8-0 shortly before Oscar's consolation goal.

Centre-back Mats Hummels, substituted with a knee problem, said in quotes reported by Focus: "I didn't pity them, but I did empathise. You don't wish a game like that on any team.

"That's why we wanted to continue playing seriously and not mock them. By no means did we want to ridicule them with any tricks. We wanted to show our respect, because we could also go to the dogs like that."

Bierhoff also calmed fears that Hummels could miss the World Cup final against Argentina on Sunday, saying his substitution had been "a precautionary measure" and adding: "I'd like to think that it will not be a problem."

http://www.espnfc.com/story/1943156/germany-players-told-not-to-ridicule-brazil-in-world-cup-semifinal

Ale
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mongrel hawk

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Re: A German lesson

Post by mongrel hawk on Thu Jul 10, 2014 1:46 pm

blutgraetsche wrote:
Germany told not to 'ridicule' Brazil

Germany have revealed that their players were told not to embarrass Brazil by coasting through the second half of Tuesday's World Cup semifinal.

With Joachim Low's side having gone 5-0 in front before half an hour had been played on an astonishing night in Belo Horizonte, the players were told not to "ridicule" the shattered hosts after the break.

Team manager Oliver Bierhoff said he had urged them to continue to "play seriously," and two more goals were added as Germany won 7-1.

Bierhoff told German TV network ARD: "It was, at least in parts, a humiliation. At half-time, we told the players to be respectful with the result and not ridicule Brazil.

"We told them to just keep playing seriously -- and our players did just that."

At the final whistle, Germany players comforted their distressed opponents, and Bierhoff said: "They did that by intuition. Some of them know each other from their clubs, are teammates, and we've also gone through the pressure of being hosts in 2006. You could see that pressure with the Brazilians."

Germany's win was the biggest ever in a World Cup semifinal, and could have been worse when Mesut Ozil missed a late chance to make it 8-0 shortly before Oscar's consolation goal.

Centre-back Mats Hummels, substituted with a knee problem, said in quotes reported by Focus: "I didn't pity them, but I did empathise. You don't wish a game like that on any team.

"That's why we wanted to continue playing seriously and not mock them. By no means did we want to ridicule them with any tricks. We wanted to show our respect, because we could also go to the dogs like that."

Bierhoff also calmed fears that Hummels could miss the World Cup final against Argentina on Sunday, saying his substitution had been "a precautionary measure" and adding: "I'd like to think that it will not be a problem."

http://www.espnfc.com/story/1943156/germany-players-told-not-to-ridicule-brazil-in-world-cup-semifinal

Ale

Yeh, that's what Brazilian journalists were saying after the game, and I agree. Germany kept playing seriously, trying to score, and that's the best way of showing respect.  ok 
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blutgraetsche

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Re: A German lesson

Post by blutgraetsche on Sat Jul 12, 2014 11:38 am

Luiz Felipe Scolari backed to stay on

Brazil coach Luiz Felipe Scolari has been backed to continue in his post by the president elect of the country's Football Confederation (CBF).

Scolari and his players have faced a barrage of criticism after their 7-1 World Cup semifinal humiliation by Germany on Tuesday.

Brazil found themselves five down before half an hour had been played on an astonishing night in Belo Horizonte -- but Scolari was quick to insist he would not stand down after being on the wrong end of a record semifinal score.

And Marco Polo Del Nero, who will take over as CBF chief next year, said: "To me, he stays.

"What happened [against Germany] was a tactical error. That was the problem. But we all make mistakes -- it can happen to anyone.

"The important thing is that he did a good job. The campaign and the preparations were good. A base exists."

Scolari's side take on Netherlands in Saturday's third-place playoff match in Brasilia, and that will soon be followed by talks between the coach, Del Nero and the current CBF president Jose Maria Marin.

And speaking at a news conference, Scolari told reporters: "The first phase of my job finishes on Saturday. After that, I will prepare my report and then I will talk with the presidents.

"They will look at what was right and what was wrong in what I did, but I know in the last year and a half we had several good situations."

He added that Brazil "have to be ashamed" of the 7-1, saying: "It was a catastrophe, but I have to ask the media -- is everything bad because of one result?"

http://www.espnfc.com/fifa-world-cup/story/1946478/luiz-felipe-scolari-backed-to-stay-on


What do the Brazilians on here think about that? Should Scolari remain in charge as the new FA president is saying?

I think that would be a mistake. Not just because of that semi final - he simply is a dinosaur and definitely not the guy you'd want in charge to modernise the structures in Brazil.
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mongrel hawk

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Re: A German lesson

Post by mongrel hawk on Sun Jul 13, 2014 1:02 am

blutgraetsche wrote:
Luiz Felipe Scolari backed to stay on

Brazil coach Luiz Felipe Scolari has been backed to continue in his post by the president elect of the country's Football Confederation (CBF).

Scolari and his players have faced a barrage of criticism after their 7-1 World Cup semifinal humiliation by Germany on Tuesday.

Brazil found themselves five down before half an hour had been played on an astonishing night in Belo Horizonte -- but Scolari was quick to insist he would not stand down after being on the wrong end of a record semifinal score.

And Marco Polo Del Nero, who will take over as CBF chief next year, said: "To me, he stays.

"What happened [against Germany] was a tactical error. That was the problem. But we all make mistakes -- it can happen to anyone.

"The important thing is that he did a good job. The campaign and the preparations were good. A base exists."

Scolari's side take on Netherlands in Saturday's third-place playoff match in Brasilia, and that will soon be followed by talks between the coach, Del Nero and the current CBF president Jose Maria Marin.

And speaking at a news conference, Scolari told reporters: "The first phase of my job finishes on Saturday. After that, I will prepare my report and then I will talk with the presidents.

"They will look at what was right and what was wrong in what I did, but I know in the last year and a half we had several good situations."

He added that Brazil "have to be ashamed" of the 7-1, saying: "It was a catastrophe, but I have to ask the media -- is everything bad because of one result?"

http://www.espnfc.com/fifa-world-cup/story/1946478/luiz-felipe-scolari-backed-to-stay-on


What do the Brazilians on here think about that? Should Scolari remain in charge as the new FA president is saying?

I think that would be a mistake. Not just because of that semi final - he simply is a dinosaur and definitely not the guy you'd want in charge to modernise the structures in Brazil.

I agree with you.
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blutgraetsche

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Re: A German lesson

Post by blutgraetsche on Mon Jul 14, 2014 8:24 pm

At least Scolari finally showed some dignity and resigned

http://www.goal.com/en/news/3790/world-cup-2014/2014/07/14/4957969/brazil-coach-scolari-hands-in-resignation-letter?ICID=HP_HN_2
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blutgraetsche

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Re: A German lesson

Post by blutgraetsche on Sat Jul 19, 2014 10:18 pm

Looks like Dunga is going to be Scolaris successor. Why? It's not like his first stint was a major success, now was it? Another defensive shit-on-a-stick manager. Didn't he marginalise Ronaldinho?

A pity that the wrong conclusions seem to have been drawn from the WC.
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Murray

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Re: A German lesson

Post by Murray on Sun Jul 20, 2014 1:43 am

Dunga  lol! 
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Hlebagone

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Re: A German lesson

Post by Hlebagone on Sun Jul 20, 2014 4:09 am

Felipe Melo for captain;
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blutgraetsche

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Re: A German lesson

Post by blutgraetsche on Sun Jul 20, 2014 10:02 am

To be fair, Dunga's team was better organised than the current one of pure chaos. But still, managers like him clearly can't be the cure to the malaise of Brazilian football. That's like trying to cure heroin addiction with cocaine.
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blutgraetsche

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Re: A German lesson

Post by blutgraetsche on Tue Jul 22, 2014 10:39 pm

Why Brazil have taken a backward step in renaming Dunga as manager

The former captain and manager gets second chance to take charge of side even he must have felt was never coming his way

Fernando Duarte

Brazil’s pathetic and cringe-inducing surrender at the World Cup – first against Germany and then again against Holland – showed the locals that it was time to return to the drawing board. Amid the debris there seemed to be a consensus that wholesale changes were necessary.

The 7-1 defeat against Germany was such a shocking result that there were even suggestions that the Brazilian football confederation would appoint a overseas manager for the first time in the team’s 100-year history. Whatever happened, everyone agreed that there was time for a fresh approach.

So what does the CBF do? It only goes back to the past to reappoint Dunga. It beggars belief. The 54th managerial change since the Seleção job was created in the 1920s will not only mark the 12th time a coach returns to the seat, it will also mark the resurrection of one of the most controversial figures to have occupied the post. The 1994 World Cup-winning captain has been charged with giving Brazil some purpose again. For the record, yes, that is the same Dunga who left the job in disgrace four years ago.

Where can one start? A good first step is the fact that the former Seleçao hero has hardly covered himself in glory since leaving the job – by the way the first managerial position he occupied. Only after a two-year sabbatical did Dunga have another go, taking charge of the southern Brazilian side SC Internacional, the club where he made his breakthrough as a player in the early 80s. The experience lasted less than a year and until recently Dunga’s main comeback chance had been a financially tempting offer to lead Venezuela in a vain bid to end their status as the only South American side never to have played in a World Cup finals.

It is probably fair to add that Dunga’s first stint as Brazil manager was not an abject failure by any normal standards. With 42 wins and 12 draws in 60 games, the man nicknamed after the Brazilian version of Dopey, the least noble but much-loved of the Seven Dwarfs, oversaw the 2007 Copa América and the 2009 Confederations Cup titles, alongside Brazil’s first topping of the South American qualifiers in their league format. Victories included drubbings of Argentina and Italy. Even the Seleçao’s 2-1 defeat by Holland in South Africa in 2010 did not look that bad after they put on a first-half display that could and should have ended that quarter-final at Port Elizabeth.

His team did not play beautiful football, but that had hardly been a problem until the moment the manager seemed to have no response to his team’s poor defending against the Dutch. The main issue is that a few years before that July afternoon in South Africa, Dopey had turned into Grumpy.

Just as in 1994 he used the privilege of lifting the World Cup trophy as an opportunity to address in expletive terms how he felt about media criticism – four years before, he had been unfairly singled out for Brazil’s tepid display in Italy – Dunga the manager also adopted a siege mentality that trickled down to his players and made his side one of the less loved in recent history, a feeling that even the presence of players with a far different, more light-hearted image such as Kaká and Robinho were not able to alleviate the atmosphere surrounding the group. It did not help that Dunga showed a very dismissive attitude towards Neymar, who in 2009 was already the hottest young prospect in a Brazilian football. The manager chose instead not even to include the youngster in the 23-man squad in South Africa.

Dunga’s particular feud with Globo TV, the most powerful player in the Brazilian media landscape and for years a privileged partner of CBF, became a public war of attrition that had inevitable consequences to how he and his players behaved. Even evangelical golden boy Kaká managed to get sent off in a World Cup marred by the red card received by Felipe Melo, a midfielder moulded as a carbon copy of Dunga’s midfield enforcing style on the pitch.

So this is the man Brazilian football authorities think is the best name to lead Brazil into a journey in which they need to slay dragons with banged armours and broken swords. But after CBF announced last week that Gilmar Rinaldi, the former Selecão goalkeeper and players’ agent, was to take over the technical director role, few could be shocked to discover that Brazil were not really promoting a big change in course after their gruelling domestic World Cup heartbreak. Burned as he was after being so badly caught out by counterparts such as Joachim Löw and Louis van Gaal, the departing manager Luiz Felipe Scolari at least had a CV that included the 2002 World Cup.

“Created” in 2006 as a Brazilian version of the German experiment with Jürgen Klinsmann in that year’s World Cup, Dunga proved to be a budget version limited to national pride and a respectable image, lacking above all Klinsmann’s ability to learn from mistakes and to leave a legacy to his country. He now has a second chance that even the former captain himself must have felt was never coming back his way.

He had better make the most of it. Or risk having a direct participation in a decision-making process in Brazilian football which can only be described as shocking.

http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2014/jul/22/brazil-manager-dunga-backwards-step-world-cup

Formerly known as sheva7

Number of posts : 1898
Age : 33
Registration date : 2006-08-07

Re: A German lesson

Post by Formerly known as sheva7 on Wed Jul 23, 2014 2:38 am

This is fucking ridiculous. I was naive enough that things would change after the 1x7. As long as the corrupt fuckos are at the helm Brazil will be never known as the country of football, but as the country that lost a WC match at home by 7x1.

Hiring Dunga is a joke considering his awful results after the 2010 WC, but this is not the biggest problem. Even Guardiola would not be able to make Brazil play quality football because the fact is that Brazil have poor footballers since 2006. Brazil must rethink about the development of young players, but this will not happen anytime soon. Also Brazil need a decent league and football calendar.



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Ä

Number of posts : 11028
Age : 87
Registration date : 2006-09-04

Re: A German lesson

Post by Ä on Wed Jul 23, 2014 7:14 am

Formerly known as sheva7 wrote:This is fucking ridiculous. I was naive enough that things would change after the 1x7. As long as the corrupt fuckos are at the helm Brazil will be never known as the country of football, but as the country that lost a WC match at home by 7x1.

Hiring Dunga is a joke considering his awful results after the 2010 WC, but this is not the biggest problem. Even Guardiola would not be able to make Brazil play quality football because the fact is that Brazil have poor footballers since 2006. Brazil must rethink about the development of young players, but this will not happen anytime soon. Also Brazil need a decent league and football calendar.




why does youth development no longer work in Brazil

when

in the past

it did ?

what has changed ?

what do Brazilian experts think the reason for the 1:7 was ?
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blutgraetsche

Number of posts : 23328
Supports : Deutsche Fußballnationalmannschaft
Registration date : 2006-08-09

Re: A German lesson

Post by blutgraetsche on Wed Jul 23, 2014 8:28 am

Formerly known as sheva7 wrote:This is fucking ridiculous. I was naive enough that things would change after the 1x7. As long as the corrupt fuckos are at the helm Brazil will be never known as the country of football, but as the country that lost a WC match at home by 7x1.

Hiring Dunga is a joke considering his awful results after the 2010 WC, but this is not the biggest problem. Even Guardiola would not be able to make Brazil play quality football because the fact is that Brazil have poor footballers since 2006. Brazil must rethink about the development of young players, but this will not happen anytime soon. Also Brazil need a decent league and football calendar.

Maybe the CBF believed that for now, having a guy at the helm who could bring results is the best idea, as there simply aren't enough talented players coming through to change the philosophy? Because results is what Dunga will likely deliver, as he did the first time he was in charge. With the exception of the WC, he had a pretty good record results wise. Sure, Brazil played some ugly football under his watch, but at least they were well organised and disciplined tactically.

On the other hand, he doesn't seem to have had much success after his time with Brazil. Similar to Felipao, his recent achievements on the club level have been a disaster, although Felipao could at least point to his past successes, winning the WC with Brazil and the Copa Libertadores. Dunga only has the Copa America in 2007 to show off. Plus, the current team is arguably less talented than the one Dunga had in 2006-2010, but some of that is down to Felipao's weird team selection, to be fair.

Time will tell how things will work out. But if there is one thing you can't expect from Dunga, it's a revolutionary approach, or even steps to modernise Brazilian football. But that would need a Herculean effort on all fronts, starting with the indeed highly corrupt and incompetent CBF.
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blutgraetsche

Number of posts : 23328
Supports : Deutsche Fußballnationalmannschaft
Registration date : 2006-08-09

Re: A German lesson

Post by blutgraetsche on Wed Jul 23, 2014 9:25 am

Dunga returns, but can he handle it?

Posted by Tim Vickery

Brazil have responded to that disastrous World Cup semifinal performance with a curious choice of new coach. They have gone back to the future in reappointing Dunga, who was in charge of the team from 2006 to 2010.

Eight years ago, the former World Cup-winning captain had no previous coaching experience. He has had very little since -- a few months last year in charge of Internacional of Porto Alegre. It is, then, nothing short of extraordinary that this man could have been chosen twice to command his country's national team -- and it is perhaps even more extraordinary that he has been seen as the man to lead them at this delicate moment.

Many were hoping for a great leap forward, expecting that the crushing 7-1 semifinal defeat to Germany might lead to a serious rethink in Brazilian football. There seems little chance of that now.

Dunga arrives with his talk of the importance of "commitment," pointing to the statistics of his previous spell in charge when there were many more victories than defeats.

Two considerations might be made. The first is the question of "how."

At their most effective, Dunga's 2006-10 Brazil side were a brutally quick counterattacking machine, the type of team likely to regard a corner for the opposition as a goal-scoring opportunity for themselves. They were never particularly easy on the eye. Dunga went as far as to claim that the desire to see Brazil re-embrace their 1982 style of midfield passing was nothing other than a European plot to try to undermine their chances of winning -- a declaration that seems out of sorts with the possession-based football played with such success in recent times by Spain and, now, Germany.

The second consideration is that, as he is surely aware, all those stats count for little. Everything was preamble to the 2010 World Cup in South Africa, where an unimpressive and unloved Brazil fell to the Netherlands in the quarterfinals -- a defeat that had a great deal to do with the personality of the coach.

Dunga was always fueled by anger. He is the one World Cup-winning captain in history who transformed the act of lifting the trophy from one of celebration to one of revenge; he poured out his contempt for those who had doubted him and his team as he held aloft the cup after USA '94.

To operate on such a fuse as a player, even as team captain, is one thing. In the position of coach, it is quite another. There were times during the 2010 campaign when it was clear that Dunga was entirely out of his emotional depth. In one postmatch press conference he tangled with an entirely inoffensive Brazilian journalist, spending his time on the podium muttering swearwords under his breath.

The clear impression was that he was unable to control himself. How, then, could he control a team? Was it really a surprise when Brazil suffered an emotional collapse in the second half against the Dutch while Dunga lost his temper on the sidelines and kept hitting the dugout?

"We need to show emotional balance," he said in Tuesday's press conference, without making it clear whether he was being critical of his past conduct -- or whether he was attacking the river of tears cried by the 2014 team.

Perhaps now the tears will be cried by those who hoped for something more idealistic from the country seen by many as the spiritual guardian of the beautiful game.

http://www.espnfc.com/team/brazil/205/blog/post/1956673/can-dunga-fix-brazilwonders-tim-vickery

Formerly known as sheva7

Number of posts : 1898
Age : 33
Registration date : 2006-08-07

Re: A German lesson

Post by Formerly known as sheva7 on Wed Jul 08, 2015 7:01 am

One year later...

Nothing changed. Brazilian football is in the same stage it was one year ago. Brazil are light years behind Germany in every possible way.

I watched a very interesting Dani Alves interview tonight. Deep and honest answers about the Brazilian FA. I doubt he will ever be called up again.

He said that Guardiola told himself that he wanted to coach Brazil in 2012 before taking his sabbatical year. He talked to Brazilian FA directors, but they hired Scolari.

How it would have been? Not easy to say. It's hard to imagine brazilian midfield having a high possession rate with players like Fernandinho, Ramires and Paulinho. Probably it would not end 1x7

The only thing that makes me laugh about that game is the email Puro sent to me and todo just hours before the match. The title? Easy match for Brazil. Smile

Btw, Congrats for the third place in Copa America, Puro. I hope to see the Inca Warriors qualifying for the wc.
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Antarion

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Re: A German lesson

Post by Antarion on Wed Jul 08, 2015 1:48 pm

One year already...times running. Was such an incredible summer 2014...not just because we won, but the whole entertainment during that month - watching interesting games every single day.







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