2014 World Cup Final

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Jaime

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Re: 2014 World Cup Final

Post by Jaime on Thu Jul 10, 2014 1:23 pm

So, a repeat of the first final I remember watching!



It will be interesting to see if Sabella puts Aguero back into the XI. Lavezzi has looked pretty good since coming into the team and I think he is a little more comfortable coming from wider positions. But Aguero looks 100% fit and might be fresher.

I think for Argentina the key is whether Di Maria can play and have any impact. Sounds like they cautiously optimistic that he could play.

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blutgraetsche

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Re: 2014 World Cup Final

Post by blutgraetsche on Thu Jul 10, 2014 1:37 pm

Spain 2014 has more strength is depth than Spain 2006, too. And they have far more experience and most importantly, lost the "eternal losers tag" in unprecedented fashion.

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Re: 2014 World Cup Final

Post by 110% on Thu Jul 10, 2014 2:08 pm

Super Progress wrote:France 2006 > France 2010

Italy 2006 > Italy 2014

Argentina 2006 > Argentina 2014

Brazil 2006 > Brazil 2014

Holland 2010 > Holland 2014

Portugal 2006 > Portugal 2014

Germany 2006 < Germany 2014

Spain 2006 < Spain 2014

Bobo has a point


Bobo does have a point, but should have compared to the 2002 world cup squads for 10-15 years ago. Brazil were great, Germany were not but made the final, Netherlands didn't qualify, France lost to Senegal in the first match and never recovered, Beckham was injured and had special boots made, Portugal had their golden generation, there was dodgy refereeing, the weather was an issue. People complained about that world cup being the worst but it is the same as the current one, only the countries have changed roles: Germany is great, Argentina is not but made the final, Sweden didn't qualify, Spain lost to Netherlands in the first match and never recovered, rooney was unfit and had a special diet made, Belgium have their golden generation, dodgy refereeing and weather. Virtually identical  tongue 
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BoBo Vieri 32

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Re: 2014 World Cup Final

Post by BoBo Vieri 32 on Thu Jul 10, 2014 2:18 pm

10-15 years ago, so we should compare with sides from 2000-02

Italy: Nesta, Cannavaro, Zambrotta, Maldini, Vieri, Inzaghi, Del Piero, Totti, Buffon, Toldo - a great generation of Italian players. The current generation is still overly reliant on the aging Buffon and Pirlo, whilst the others that have emerged are simply not as good.

Argentina: Batisuta, Crespo, Zanetti, Simeone, Sorin, Samuel, Ayala, Lopez, Aimar, Riquelme, Gallardo - Argentina had great players and terrific depth in midfield and attack. The current team still has similar depth in attack, but weak players in midfield and attack and no depth.

Brazil: Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, Rivaldo, Carlos, Cafu, Lucio, Amoroso, Emerson vs Hulk, Fred, Willian, Oscar, Marcelo etc. No comparison. I thought Brazil would always produce great attacking talent, but the attackers they have now are mere atheletes.

France: Thuram, Blanc, Lizarazu, Zidane, Henry, Trezeguet, Vieira, Pires - that generation won alot. The current side is still emerging and may prove themselves.

Portugal: Rui Costa, Paulo Sousa, Figo, Couto, Jorge Costa, Baia, Joao Pinto vs Ronaldo, Nani, Moutinho, Veloso, Pepe, Coentrao. I think their golden generation were slightly stronger but not easy to call.

Spain: Hierro, Raul, Luis Enrique, Guardiola, Valeron, Morientes, Alfonso, Mendieta vs Xavi, Iniesta, Villa, Alonso, Ramos, Pique. I think the current generation is only slightly better talent wise, but as blut says they lost that loser tag which haunted them for years.

Holland: Stam, Kluivert, van Nistelrooy, Seedorf, Davids, Reiziger, van der saar, Cocu, De Boer was another great generation of players (big shame they didnt qualify for 2002). The current generation only has Robben and van Persie really. The otehrs are still too young or just mediocre.

Germany: obviously they were weak in that period with Ballack and Kahn being the only outstanding players. They are much better now.



So only Germany and Spain are stronger now.

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Re: 2014 World Cup Final

Post by Brian 2468 on Thu Jul 10, 2014 2:24 pm

BoBo Vieri 32 wrote:
Kroos wrote:at least they won`t hide like the netherlands would have done


seriously this must be the worst side in an WC Final since 2002  Suspect

i really don`t rate them at all

i don`t see a single area where they are better than us, yeah you can argue with messi, but he looks garbage without support from his limited team mates

They are weak but most top international teams (excluding Germany) are much weaker than they were 10-15 years ago.

Funny 10 15 years ago even England could them..... jocolor 

Argentina cannot be compared to their past sides. Back then they may of had better players in some positions but as a team they were to predictable to beat. Today they are more together and hold out as a team something they could never do before because of the style they played.

Actually they are playing like some old German side teams. Very defensive only take a risk if there is 99% chance of scoring on get to penalties. Very Happy
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BoBo Vieri 32

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Re: 2014 World Cup Final

Post by BoBo Vieri 32 on Thu Jul 10, 2014 2:25 pm

Jaime wrote:So, a repeat of the first final I remember watching!



It will be interesting to see if Sabella puts Aguero back into the XI. Lavezzi has looked pretty good since coming into the team and I think he is a little more comfortable coming from wider positions. But Aguero looks 100% fit and might be fresher.

I think for Argentina the key is whether Di Maria can play and have any impact. Sounds like they cautiously optimistic that he could play.


If Di Maria is back, then he can replace Perez. Otherwise, i would stick with the same XI used in the last 2 games. Lavezzi works very hard on the wing. Aguero is a good option as a sub.
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blutgraetsche

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Re: 2014 World Cup Final

Post by blutgraetsche on Thu Jul 10, 2014 2:32 pm

Germany have never played like that. Biggest myth in football that gets repeated ad nauseam.

Bobo, a lot has changed in the last 10-15 years, especially tactically. Many of those players who look great on paper may have struggled in today's game. Michael Essien was the "ideal midfielder" up to the mid noughties, for example, now he'd be happy to get a game at a top club, even in his pomp.

It's rather difficult to compare teams over such a long time span, but it's clear that some of the big teams are in transition or are going through a rough patch. Spain have had a huge impact on football, both club football and international football. They've changed the rules basically and others needed to adapt. Some countries are struggling with this, others simply don't have the talent or are looking for their own identity.

The next Euros are going to be interesting. Expect France to be strong, playing at home and having gained valuable experience. Spain will likely bounce back, too much quality not to. Belgium may be stronger, England, too. There will be a lot of changes.
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Cking

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Re: 2014 World Cup Final

Post by Cking on Thu Jul 10, 2014 2:45 pm

A predication from China: 2:1 in the favor of Messi Argens
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messiah

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Re: 2014 World Cup Final

Post by messiah on Thu Jul 10, 2014 3:16 pm

It will be a tight Final, Kroos is going to be in for a surprise in that respect, because while german absolutely destroyed brazil, over the course of the tournament they haven't been the standout team, regarding playing well consistently, that's Colombia, the brazil result was a combination of germany player well and brazil playing the worst game of football in their life.

I Think germany will win, but it will be a very different game from the Brazil game, for one germany won't be able to play such a high line against Argentina given the names they have at their disposal to attack with, while against brazil they knew everyone in the team was just a Facking runner.

Rumors are that Di Maria will be fit for the final, this is will be huge for Argentina, because He is messi's mean link up man in the team.

1-0/2-1 for germany.
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messiah

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Re: 2014 World Cup Final

Post by messiah on Thu Jul 10, 2014 3:19 pm

I would bring in DI maria for Lavezzi and keep Enzo, who has done wonderfully well IMO, argentina will need midfielders to compete with german and enzo offers close to what lavezzi offers going forward
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Re: 2014 World Cup Final

Post by Kroos on Thu Jul 10, 2014 3:31 pm

BoBo Vieri 32 wrote:
Kroos wrote:at least they won`t hide like the netherlands would have done


seriously this must be the worst side in an WC Final since 2002  Suspect

i really don`t rate them at all

i don`t see a single area where they are better than us, yeah you can argue with messi, but he looks garbage without support from his limited team mates

They are weak but most top international teams (excluding Germany) are much weaker than they were 10-15 years ago.

this explains spains 3 titles in a row (2008 poor germany and ageing italy; 2010 young german and hoofer holland)

and this will explain germanys 3-4 titles in a row Very Happy Laughing

but you are right, some of the biggest nations were in huge decline since 2006, some of them with high and lows, but not really high HEIGHTS
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Re: 2014 World Cup Final

Post by Kroos on Thu Jul 10, 2014 3:37 pm

messiah wrote:It will be a tight Final, Kroos is going to be in for a surprise in that respect, because while german absolutely destroyed brazil, over the course of the tournament they haven't been the standout team, regarding playing well consistently, that's Colombia, the brazil result was a combination of germany player well and brazil playing the worst game of football in their life.

I Think germany will win, but it will be a very different game from the Brazil game, for one germany won't be able to play such a high line against Argentina given the names they have at their disposal to attack with, while against brazil they knew everyone in the team was just a Facking runner.

Rumors are that Di Maria will be fit for the final, this is will be huge for Argentina, because He is messi's mean link up man in the team.

1-0/2-1 for germany.

of course it will be tight, especially when we don`t make an early goal

BUT i still think there organisation is overrated, holland never really tested them thx to there gameplan and belgium pissed there pants

also we have an huge advantage in midfield and attack in terms of height and strength
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Jaime

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Re: 2014 World Cup Final

Post by Jaime on Thu Jul 10, 2014 3:45 pm

messiah wrote:I would bring in DI maria for Lavezzi and keep Enzo, who has done wonderfully well IMO, argentina will need midfielders to compete with german and enzo offers close to what lavezzi offers going forward

I don't know. I don't like Enzo personally. Very regular. In fact, I'm not a big fan of a lot of the midfield players that Sabella brought. Seems like there should have been a place someone like Pastore, even if he doesn't fit into Sabella's principal set up, he is a player that could come on as a sub and offer some creativity. Or a player like Ocampos who has some genuine pace that can player in wider positions. Instead there is Augusto Fernandez ( Doh ) and 100 year old Maxi Rodriguez on the bench.
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messiah

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Re: 2014 World Cup Final

Post by messiah on Thu Jul 10, 2014 4:09 pm

Jaime wrote:
messiah wrote:I would bring in DI maria for Lavezzi and keep Enzo, who has done wonderfully well IMO, argentina will need midfielders to compete with german and enzo offers close to what lavezzi offers going forward

I don't know. I don't like Enzo personally. Very regular. In fact, I'm not a big fan of a lot of the midfield players that Sabella brought. Seems like there should have been a place someone like Pastore, even if he doesn't fit into Sabella's principal set up, he is a player that could come on as a sub and offer some creativity. Or a player like Ocampos who has some genuine pace that can player in wider positions. Instead there is Augusto Fernandez ( Doh ) and 100 year old Maxi Rodriguez on the bench.

Perez actually played very a refine game to me yesterday, did more than Lavezzi IMO.

I agree completely on the personally sebella carried, I was hoping in away it came back to bite him in the ass, but he has gotten HIS players to the final, I hate when coaches do that, take the best players available is what i say and not your personal favourites.

same in the defense, where Fernandez has no place in the team over Fazio and Masacchio.

Lady Gago is the worst of them all, biglia improved the team 100 folds since he has been starting.

Maxi I like because he can be a cold son of a bitch, that wins you a game. like he should have done yesterday off the messi pass but messed up his shot, or has palacio should have done off his pass
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Jaime

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Re: 2014 World Cup Final

Post by Jaime on Thu Jul 10, 2014 4:20 pm

Enzo had a good game yesterday but in general I don't think he offers a lot of solutions.
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Jaime

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Re: 2014 World Cup Final

Post by Jaime on Thu Jul 10, 2014 4:21 pm

But really Sabella should have taken Banega. Laughing
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messiah

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Re: 2014 World Cup Final

Post by messiah on Thu Jul 10, 2014 4:32 pm

Jaime wrote:But really Sabella should have taken Banega. Laughing

World class
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Re: 2014 World Cup Final

Post by blutgraetsche on Fri Jul 11, 2014 7:41 am

So Di Maria will be back for the final, that's certainly good news for Argentina, as he's quite important for them.
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Re: 2014 World Cup Final

Post by Kroos on Fri Jul 11, 2014 7:51 am

i doubt that he will be at his best, and will be subbed like da costa in the cl final
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blutgraetsche

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Re: 2014 World Cup Final

Post by blutgraetsche on Fri Jul 11, 2014 9:14 am

Stat of the day, found by Raphael Hongstein:

Raphael Honigstein

Interesting stat: only #BRA's Fred (47.2km) has run less than #ARG 's Messi (51.9km) in six WC games

http://www.fifa.com/worldcup/statistics/players/distance.html

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Re: 2014 World Cup Final

Post by NeoChap on Fri Jul 11, 2014 9:50 am

BoBo Vieri 32 wrote:10-15 years ago, so we should compare with sides from 2000-02

So only Germany and Spain are stronger now.

It's an impressive list of names, but some of those teams were actually non events. The 2002 semi finals featured players like Alpay, Rustu, Muzzy Izzet, Asamoah, Lee Young-Pyo etc. And again was one good match and one bad one.

Especially once a few years have passed and some of the younger players at this tournament have built their reputation the standard won't seem any lower. This World Cup has just been odd because it was better in the group stages than the knockouts - partly due to the luck of the matchups.
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Re: 2014 World Cup Final

Post by Super Progress on Fri Jul 11, 2014 2:35 pm

blutgraetsche wrote:Germany have never played like that. Biggest myth in football that gets repeated ad nauseam.

Bobo, a lot has changed in the last 10-15 years, especially tactically. Many of those players who look great on paper may have struggled in today's game. Michael Essien was the "ideal midfielder" up to the mid noughties, for example, now he'd be happy to get a game at a top club, even in his pomp.
The point is not whether or not players from back then could compete today but that the quality of players in national teams is lower today.
As I mentioned before it is surely remarkable that 3/4 of the semifinalists have credible been called the worst sides in their respective national team history even if I don't personally agree.

Also Essien suffered several injuries from which he never really recovered. It is not that the game has passed him by imo. He lost the bite and energy he used to have.
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Re: 2014 World Cup Final

Post by blutgraetsche on Fri Jul 11, 2014 2:52 pm

He is not the type of midfielder that most big clubs look for these days, for good reason, regardless of injuries. I know it makes your "Team Progress" blood boil, but Spain / Barcelona in particular have changed the priorities when it comes to midfielders. Passing is now a far more important ability than it used to be for most of the noughties, when athleticism and tackling were most important.

Even pure defensive midfielders, who have become a rarity, have to be excellent passers these days. More than that, buildups start with the defenders or even goal keepers, whose footballing ability has improved considerably on average. So called "no nonsense" defenders that aren't comfortable on the ball have no chance at the top clubs these days.

These changes have been a challenge for many countries. Adapting to the new reality takes time, for some longer than for others. "Total Football" is a logical step, it's really inevitable considering the fact that football is a team sport. Pep gets ridiculed for his love affair with midfielders, but it's not about midfielders. It's about having complete footballers on all positions, midfielders are just usually those who come closest to this ideal.

Total Football can be interpreted in different ways, it does not have to be attacking per se, that's what the philosophy is for. But moving away from "specialists" to "generalists" is something that has been going on for decades. It's nothing new, it's just that in the last few years, this development has gained pace.
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Super Progress

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Re: 2014 World Cup Final

Post by Super Progress on Fri Jul 11, 2014 3:52 pm

That is besides the point. I'm not making a general case that Essien types are still in vogue. I am saying that Essien pre-injury would have continued to flourish at Chelsea at the highest level. Nor was he a pure Dm either so not sure any of what you said applies to him really.
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BoBo Vieri 32

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Re: 2014 World Cup Final

Post by BoBo Vieri 32 on Fri Jul 11, 2014 4:00 pm

I don't really agree with Blut, there are still plenty of pure defensive midfielders like Khedira, Martinez, Matuidi, Mascherano having plenty of success in today's game.

Yes it's nice if you can get a defensive midfielder who can also pass the ball, but those players still existed in 10-15 years ago (e.g. Guardiola, Albertini, Redondo).
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Re: 2014 World Cup Final

Post by blutgraetsche on Fri Jul 11, 2014 4:02 pm

Khedira is no defensive midfielder. Matuidi isn't either.

They existed 15 or even 50 years ago, but they were not the norm on the highest level. Now they are.
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BoBo Vieri 32

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Re: 2014 World Cup Final

Post by BoBo Vieri 32 on Fri Jul 11, 2014 4:07 pm

They're both facking runners and both not particularly great footballers. Yet they still flourish in today's game.

I think the game is more physical nowadays and is based more on pace and power rather than technical ability. Teams can't afford to have players like Baggio or Riquelme anymore because they give away too much defensively. Instead we've moved to a game where attacking midfielders and attackers are picked primarily on their ability to press the opposition defence rather than their technical ability.
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Re: 2014 World Cup Final

Post by debaser on Fri Jul 11, 2014 4:08 pm

Khedira's box-to-box. but then so was Essien at his peak.
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Re: 2014 World Cup Final

Post by Super Progress on Fri Jul 11, 2014 4:17 pm

debaser wrote:Khedira's box-to-box. but then so was Essien at his peak.
 ok 
He was also capable of being a Makelele at times like the Cl QF against Liverpool under Hiddink
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blutgraetsche

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Re: 2014 World Cup Final

Post by blutgraetsche on Fri Jul 11, 2014 4:20 pm

That's nonsense. The technical level of todays football is higher, because the pace of the game has increased. Pass and move at higher pace, with less time between the passes (one touch football) requires higher technical ability, not less. And yes, athleticism has increased, too, as pressing non stop requires players to be very good athletes. But that is no contradiction, as physical ability is of course ability, too. Means that a complete footballer has to be a great athlete also.

Khedira isn't flourishing, he is adapting to this new reality by working on his weaknesses. From the pure talent / requirements of the game view, he is not the archetype modern midfielder.

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