Copa America 2015

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Murray

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Re: Copa America 2015

Post by Murray on Sun Jul 05, 2015 6:28 pm



More like chokers than bridesmaids
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Fey

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Re: Copa America 2015

Post by Fey on Sun Jul 05, 2015 6:40 pm

At least they are reaching finals again..

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Re: Copa America 2015

Post by Guest on Mon Jul 06, 2015 2:23 am

CAMPIONES!!!! I Watched this in a Irish bar in Barcelona. It was an entirely even game, there weren't many chances but it was intense all the way through.

I knew Higuian was going to miss, one of the biggest choke artists in the modern game. I thought Messi was very quiet as well, like we was the world cup knockout stages. This is why I refuse to say he is better than Maradona. Maradona for Argentina shits all over Messi for Argentina. Here is a quote by Veron that sums up their impact on the national team:

"You have to leave Messi to do his own thing. He will never be a Maradona and drive the team."

And this quote from a poster on another forum makes some good points:

"I am a huge Messi fan and would say he might well be the most talented player of all time, but just seemed listless in some situations. Pretty much he needs a steady supply of the ball played to his feet. Instead of making runs, making himself available he was trudging around in a final....I just don't understand. I could forgive sloppiness. God knows the refereeing was horrible, and the rest of the seleccion wasn't doing their part...but at least make room for yourself, demand the ball, try something...don't walk around moping for ffs. It reminds me of a match I saw of Maradona with Napoli vs Real Madrid. Napoli lost the match, and Maradona was tightly marked. Not much of what he was trying was coming off, but for 90 mins he tries to get on the ball and make plays, pushing his team forward. That is what leadership is about...if after that it doesnt work out then fine...you did what you could...but Messi's attitude yesterday was indefensible."

Anyway, player of the tournament - Valdivia.  <Ale>
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Jaime

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Re: Copa America 2015

Post by Jaime on Mon Jul 06, 2015 1:46 pm

My brother in law is from Argentina and he hates Messi. His biggest complaint is that he doesn't play with balls when he goes to play for the national team and that he hides too much.

Ale
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Antarion

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Re: Copa America 2015

Post by Antarion on Mon Jul 06, 2015 1:56 pm

Here is the Player of the tournament voting result:

1. Messi
2. C. Ronaldo
3. no votes

Deserved <Ale>

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Super Progress

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Re: Copa America 2015

Post by Super Progress on Mon Jul 06, 2015 3:49 pm

Tevez+Messi=Maradona

You can't fault Messi for not having Maradona's balls and leadership abilities.

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Re: Copa America 2015

Post by Guest on Mon Jul 06, 2015 3:53 pm

I am not faulting him, he is a great player, one of the greatest ever. But I simply object to people who say he is better than Maradona.
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Fey

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Re: Copa America 2015

Post by Fey on Mon Jul 06, 2015 3:58 pm

Nor can you fault Maradonna for Messi mentality.

Messi lost weight, which made him better then ever again.

No fuckin way Maradonna would be able to do that.

So who has the right mentality?

Besides, look what Maradonna has won and compare that with what Messi has won. It's not even close. Messi is way better. Also, Messi STILL can win something with Argentina.

Maradonna didnt win as much as people think he has.
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Super Progress

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Re: Copa America 2015

Post by Super Progress on Mon Jul 06, 2015 4:13 pm

That is because the entire hype about Maradona is that he managed to lead teams that were worse. Maradona played for a Napoli side in the 80's without too many stars before clubs could so easily assemble great teams when money didn't rule the day as much(the dark ages in other words).
Winning with this Argentina team is not even a fair comparison with the Argentina side of Maradona. And even bigger is the difference between Barcelona and Napoli.
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Isco Benny

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Re: Copa America 2015

Post by Isco Benny on Mon Jul 06, 2015 9:29 pm

Fey wrote:Nor can you fault Maradonna for Messi mentality.

Messi lost weight, which made him better then ever again.

No fuckin way Maradonna would be able to do that.

So who has the right mentality?

Besides, look what Maradonna has won and compare that with what Messi has won. It's not even close. Messi is way better. Also, Messi STILL can win something with Argentina.

Maradonna didnt win as much as people think he has.

Ale 3 Chins On A Shirt for this.

Anyway, Messi's driving run through the middle and pass to set of the move in the final minute that ended with Higuain messing it up at the far post should've been enough to give Argentina their victory. Not sure what else could have been asked of Messi to be honest, one relatively quiet game in the final after owning the show in each of the numerous games beforehand was still extremely impressive. The sheer intensity of the games over such a short period of time makes it extremely difficult to maintain that extraordinary level in every game. Let's not kid ourselves, back in Maradona's day the level of physical endurance necessary is not comparable to today.
The greatest player ever in my opinion. That he's not won anything yet with Argentina is that some of his team mates just don't have the killer instinct, not his fault.
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Jaime

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Re: Copa America 2015

Post by Jaime on Mon Jul 06, 2015 9:31 pm

Isco Benny wrote:
Fey wrote:Nor can you fault Maradonna for Messi mentality.

Messi lost weight, which made him better then ever again.

No fuckin way Maradonna would be able to do that.

So who has the right mentality?

Besides, look what Maradonna has won and compare that with what Messi has won. It's not even close. Messi is way better. Also, Messi STILL can win something with Argentina.

Maradonna didnt win as much as people think he has.

Ale 3 Chins On A Shirt for this.

Anyway, Messi's driving run through the middle and pass to set of the move in the final minute that ended with Higuain messing it up at the far post should've been enough to give Argentina their victory. Not sure what else could have been asked of Messi to be honest, one relatively quiet game in the final after owning the show in each of the numerous games beforehand was still extremely impressive. The sheer intensity of the games over such a short period of time makes it extremely difficult to maintain that extraordinary level in every game. Let's not kid ourselves, back in Maradona's day the level of physical endurance necessary is not comparable to today.
The greatest player ever in my opinion. That he's not won anything yet with Argentina is that some of his team mates just don't have the killer instinct, not his fault.

Messi provides the killer instinct at Barcelona though. Hence, the frustration...
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Isco Benny

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Re: Copa America 2015

Post by Isco Benny on Mon Jul 06, 2015 9:50 pm

Jaime wrote:
Isco Benny wrote:
Fey wrote:Nor can you fault Maradonna for Messi mentality.

Messi lost weight, which made him better then ever again.

No fuckin way Maradonna would be able to do that.

So who has the right mentality?

Besides, look what Maradonna has won and compare that with what Messi has won. It's not even close. Messi is way better. Also, Messi STILL can win something with Argentina.

Maradonna didnt win as much as people think he has.

Ale 3 Chins On A Shirt for this.

Anyway, Messi's driving run through the middle and pass to set of the move in the final minute that ended with Higuain messing it up at the far post should've been enough to give Argentina their victory. Not sure what else could have been asked of Messi to be honest, one relatively quiet game in the final after owning the show in each of the numerous games beforehand was still extremely impressive. The sheer intensity of the games over such a short period of time makes it extremely difficult to maintain that extraordinary level in every game. Let's not kid ourselves, back in Maradona's day the level of physical endurance necessary is not comparable to today.
The greatest player ever in my opinion. That he's not won anything yet with Argentina is that some of his team mates just don't have the killer instinct, not his fault.

Messi provides the killer instinct at Barcelona though. Hence, the frustration...

So many more games at club level though over a long period of time enables him the 'luxury' (or in reality - the normality) of some inconsistency, both in performance and fitness. International tournaments are short and sharp, and the resulting the spotlight and expectation are warped. The fact that Messi has gotten criticism kind of proves the point that the landscape has changed massively vs Maradona's time. Maradona's legend can be cloaked behind some mystery. Messi's can't. He's been dug out for 1 relatively quiet game in 6 (?) over the course of a couple of weeks which is par for course nowadays of course as we expect near FIFA15-esque perfection. But it's unrealistic in my opinion particularly from a predominantly creative player - the level of physical intensity shown in this year's Copa America was always going to favour defensive minded players. That Messi managed to stand out amongst so much cynical football was a minor miracle in itself I thought.
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Jaime

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Re: Copa America 2015

Post by Jaime on Mon Jul 06, 2015 10:26 pm

Isco Benny wrote:
Jaime wrote:
Isco Benny wrote:
Fey wrote:Nor can you fault Maradonna for Messi mentality.

Messi lost weight, which made him better then ever again.

No fuckin way Maradonna would be able to do that.

So who has the right mentality?

Besides, look what Maradonna has won and compare that with what Messi has won. It's not even close. Messi is way better. Also, Messi STILL can win something with Argentina.

Maradonna didnt win as much as people think he has.

Ale 3 Chins On A Shirt for this.

Anyway, Messi's driving run through the middle and pass to set of the move in the final minute that ended with Higuain messing it up at the far post should've been enough to give Argentina their victory. Not sure what else could have been asked of Messi to be honest, one relatively quiet game in the final after owning the show in each of the numerous games beforehand was still extremely impressive. The sheer intensity of the games over such a short period of time makes it extremely difficult to maintain that extraordinary level in every game. Let's not kid ourselves, back in Maradona's day the level of physical endurance necessary is not comparable to today.
The greatest player ever in my opinion. That he's not won anything yet with Argentina is that some of his team mates just don't have the killer instinct, not his fault.

Messi provides the killer instinct at Barcelona though. Hence, the frustration...

So many more games at club level though over a long period of time enables him the 'luxury' (or in reality - the normality) of some inconsistency, both in performance and fitness. International tournaments are short and sharp, and the resulting the spotlight and expectation are warped. The fact that Messi has gotten criticism kind of proves the point that the landscape has changed massively vs Maradona's time. Maradona's legend can be cloaked behind some mystery. Messi's can't. He's been dug out for 1 relatively quiet game in 6 (?) over the course of a couple of weeks which is par for course nowadays of course as we expect near FIFA15-esque perfection. But it's unrealistic in my opinion particularly from a predominantly creative player - the level of physical intensity shown in this year's Copa America was always going to favour defensive minded players. That Messi managed to stand out amongst so much cynical football was a minor miracle in itself I thought.

He scored 1 goal in the entire tournament. I don't understand why people want to coddle him so. Ronaldo was roasted at the last WC and rightly so. He doesn't have to score a hat trick every game. But could he manage more than one goal in the knock out rounds of an international tournament? Is that too much to ask from the "best player ever"?
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Isco Benny

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Re: Copa America 2015

Post by Isco Benny on Mon Jul 06, 2015 11:08 pm

Jaime wrote:
Isco Benny wrote:
Jaime wrote:
Isco Benny wrote:
Fey wrote:Nor can you fault Maradonna for Messi mentality.

Messi lost weight, which made him better then ever again.

No fuckin way Maradonna would be able to do that.

So who has the right mentality?

Besides, look what Maradonna has won and compare that with what Messi has won. It's not even close. Messi is way better. Also, Messi STILL can win something with Argentina.

Maradonna didnt win as much as people think he has.

Ale 3 Chins On A Shirt for this.

Anyway, Messi's driving run through the middle and pass to set of the move in the final minute that ended with Higuain messing it up at the far post should've been enough to give Argentina their victory. Not sure what else could have been asked of Messi to be honest, one relatively quiet game in the final after owning the show in each of the numerous games beforehand was still extremely impressive. The sheer intensity of the games over such a short period of time makes it extremely difficult to maintain that extraordinary level in every game. Let's not kid ourselves, back in Maradona's day the level of physical endurance necessary is not comparable to today.
The greatest player ever in my opinion. That he's not won anything yet with Argentina is that some of his team mates just don't have the killer instinct, not his fault.

Messi provides the killer instinct at Barcelona though. Hence, the frustration...

So many more games at club level though over a long period of time enables him the 'luxury' (or in reality - the normality) of some inconsistency, both in performance and fitness. International tournaments are short and sharp, and the resulting the spotlight and expectation are warped. The fact that Messi has gotten criticism kind of proves the point that the landscape has changed massively vs Maradona's time. Maradona's legend can be cloaked behind some mystery. Messi's can't. He's been dug out for 1 relatively quiet game in 6 (?) over the course of a couple of weeks which is par for course nowadays of course as we expect near FIFA15-esque perfection. But it's unrealistic in my opinion particularly from a predominantly creative player - the level of physical intensity shown in this year's Copa America was always going to favour defensive minded players. That Messi managed to stand out amongst so much cynical football was a minor miracle in itself I thought.

He scored 1 goal in the entire tournament. I don't understand why people want to coddle him so. Ronaldo was roasted at the last WC and rightly so. He doesn't have to score a hat trick every game. But could he manage more than one goal in the knock out rounds of an international tournament? Is that too much to ask from the "best player ever"?

Fair enough, but I personally view Messi as contributing far more than just goals. He created so many chances in this tournament. Argentina  as a collective struggled to convert them.

I have no reason to coddle Messi to be fair, don't really care that much. But I do think his performances at international are easily criticized, easy for people to construe no trophies for Argentina (and I guess to some degree less goals) = not the best. He didn't have a good 2014WC. I did think he had a great Copa America though. I think everything he has achieved to date stands up to the very best, even those who had a habit of dominating international tournaments. Maybe Messi's conditioning program at Barca means he isn't in peak condition physically during the summer, who knows. Maybe breaking his leg and sitting out a club season to rehabilitate like Ronaldo did before annihilating all before him in the 2002 World Cup would be helpful. Who knows. He's 26 though, so still has considerable time left to make the break through.
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Jaime

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Re: Copa America 2015

Post by Jaime on Tue Jul 07, 2015 2:07 am

Isco Benny wrote:
Jaime wrote:
Isco Benny wrote:
Jaime wrote:
Isco Benny wrote:
Fey wrote:Nor can you fault Maradonna for Messi mentality.

Messi lost weight, which made him better then ever again.

No fuckin way Maradonna would be able to do that.

So who has the right mentality?

Besides, look what Maradonna has won and compare that with what Messi has won. It's not even close. Messi is way better. Also, Messi STILL can win something with Argentina.

Maradonna didnt win as much as people think he has.

Ale 3 Chins On A Shirt for this.

Anyway, Messi's driving run through the middle and pass to set of the move in the final minute that ended with Higuain messing it up at the far post should've been enough to give Argentina their victory. Not sure what else could have been asked of Messi to be honest, one relatively quiet game in the final after owning the show in each of the numerous games beforehand was still extremely impressive. The sheer intensity of the games over such a short period of time makes it extremely difficult to maintain that extraordinary level in every game. Let's not kid ourselves, back in Maradona's day the level of physical endurance necessary is not comparable to today.
The greatest player ever in my opinion. That he's not won anything yet with Argentina is that some of his team mates just don't have the killer instinct, not his fault.

Messi provides the killer instinct at Barcelona though. Hence, the frustration...

So many more games at club level though over a long period of time enables him the 'luxury' (or in reality - the normality) of some inconsistency, both in performance and fitness. International tournaments are short and sharp, and the resulting the spotlight and expectation are warped. The fact that Messi has gotten criticism kind of proves the point that the landscape has changed massively vs Maradona's time. Maradona's legend can be cloaked behind some mystery. Messi's can't. He's been dug out for 1 relatively quiet game in 6 (?) over the course of a couple of weeks which is par for course nowadays of course as we expect near FIFA15-esque perfection. But it's unrealistic in my opinion particularly from a predominantly creative player - the level of physical intensity shown in this year's Copa America was always going to favour defensive minded players. That Messi managed to stand out amongst so much cynical football was a minor miracle in itself I thought.

He scored 1 goal in the entire tournament. I don't understand why people want to coddle him so. Ronaldo was roasted at the last WC and rightly so. He doesn't have to score a hat trick every game. But could he manage more than one goal in the knock out rounds of an international tournament? Is that too much to ask from the "best player ever"?

Fair enough, but I personally view Messi as contributing far more than just goals. He created so many chances in this tournament. Argentina  as a collective struggled to convert them.

I have no reason to coddle Messi to be fair, don't really care that much. But I do think his performances at international are easily criticized, easy for people to construe no trophies for Argentina (and I guess to some degree less goals) = not the best. He didn't have a good 2014WC. I did think he had a great Copa America though. I think everything he has achieved to date stands up to the very best, even those who had a habit of dominating international tournaments. Maybe Messi's conditioning program at Barca means he isn't in peak condition physically during the summer, who knows. Maybe breaking his leg and sitting out a club season to rehabilitate like Ronaldo did before annihilating all before him in the 2002 World Cup would be helpful. Who knows. He's 26 though, so still has considerable time left to make the break through.

I think the general outrage, at least in Argentina, is that he doesn't seem to give a f**k. There was an editorial in Ole which basically criticises him saying you can't stroll around the pitch while everyone else is busting their asses. And saying to give the armband to Mascherano who actually does play with balls.

Now look, Argentina have been shit in international tournaments for a while now and at least with Messi they have gotten back to the finals. But at least I don't see the Messi I watch in la liga every week. That Messi isn't just content to pass the ball when it's all on the line. In fact, he most likely wouldn't.

Just my opinion. Ale

stinger

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Re: Copa America 2015

Post by stinger on Wed Jul 08, 2015 2:14 pm

Fans complaining that "player doesn't give a shit". Thats a novelty. Usually they are way off.

And it's not a Messi fault that he was told to be a captain. There were some informations that he even agreed to do it only if Mascherano gives pre-match pep talk.

In ideal world Messi would tell Argentina FA (and fans) to f**k off and will start avoiding NT. Then stupid fans can have their favourite team of 11 grass eaters.
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Super Progress

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Re: Copa America 2015

Post by Super Progress on Wed Jul 08, 2015 3:18 pm

The problem is that he is unargentinian in his attitude. But they are in right in Argentina to point out that he isn't a leader and that he can shrink from responsibility in games like that. The opposite attitude of Sanchez was startling.

I think people are being very harsh on Higuain for that chance. He deserves all the berating he can get for the penalty miss but that chance in the end was not as clear as it seemed.

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Jaime

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Re: Copa America 2015

Post by Jaime on Wed Jul 08, 2015 4:18 pm

Super Progress wrote:The problem is that he is unargentinian in his attitude. But they are in right in Argentina to point out that he isn't a leader and that he can shrink from responsibility in games like that. The opposite attitude of Sanchez was startling.

I think people are being very harsh on Higuain for that chance. He deserves all the berating he can get for the penalty miss but that chance in the end was not as clear as it seemed.


Right, if you compare him to Di Maria or Mascherano or Tevez you can see why Argentinians are at a minimum frustrated.

Add that to the fact there is such a stark difference between the way he plays for Barcelona. Even on that last chance by Higuain that Super posted. If he is 30 yards out like that in FCB he's not gonna lay the ball off like he does to Lavezzi, he's going to go for it. We've all seen the goals he scores. So why is it different for Argentina? That is the question.



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Fey

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Re: Copa America 2015

Post by Fey on Wed Jul 08, 2015 5:41 pm

At Barca he also plays with better footballers surrounding him. Besides there arent many players who are as good for their club as they are for their country or the other way around.

And its not like he is shite for Argieland. I would retire from international football if I were him, after the shit he gets.

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Re: Copa America 2015

Post by Guest on Wed Jul 08, 2015 6:52 pm

It's probably between him and Pele who is the best club player of all time. I would say Messi has the edge as Messi has already won more CL's than the South American equivalent won by Pele and his great Santos side.

Overall though I think Maradona is the greatest, as Super said he is basically Messi plus huge balls and leadership skills. Cruyff comes close too, somebody who had a steller World Cup as well as being a huge success at club level.

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Re: Copa America 2015

Post by stinger on Wed Jul 08, 2015 7:25 pm

Jaime wrote:
Super Progress wrote:The problem is that he is unargentinian in his attitude. But they are in right in Argentina to point out that he isn't a leader and that he can shrink from responsibility in games like that. The opposite attitude of Sanchez was startling.

I think people are being very harsh on Higuain for that chance. He deserves all the berating he can get for the penalty miss but that chance in the end was not as clear as it seemed.


Right, if you compare him to Di Maria or Mascherano or Tevez you can see why Argentinians are at a minimum frustrated.

Add that to the fact there is such a stark difference between the way he plays for Barcelona. Even on that last chance by Higuain that Super posted. If he is 30 yards out like that in FCB he's not gonna lay the ball off like he does to Lavezzi, he's going to go for it. We've all seen the goals he scores. So why is it different for Argentina? That is the question.

I disagree, it was 3 on 2 (4 on 3?) and defenders were quite narrow. Even in Barcelona he would pass more aften than not in this kind of situations.

Also, if he would go for the goal by himself and not score (which is very probably, as it's football and not basketball) he would be probably blamed for being "selfish", "not involving teammates" and all kind of shit. Just a different kind of shot he is blamed now.
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Jaime

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Re: Copa America 2015

Post by Jaime on Thu Jul 09, 2015 3:19 pm

stinger wrote:
Jaime wrote:
Super Progress wrote:The problem is that he is unargentinian in his attitude. But they are in right in Argentina to point out that he isn't a leader and that he can shrink from responsibility in games like that. The opposite attitude of Sanchez was startling.

I think people are being very harsh on Higuain for that chance. He deserves all the berating he can get for the penalty miss but that chance in the end was not as clear as it seemed.


Right, if you compare him to Di Maria or Mascherano or Tevez you can see why Argentinians are at a minimum frustrated.

Add that to the fact there is such a stark difference between the way he plays for Barcelona. Even on that last chance by Higuain that Super posted. If he is 30 yards out like that in FCB he's not gonna lay the ball off like he does to Lavezzi, he's going to go for it. We've all seen the goals he scores. So why is it different for Argentina? That is the question.

I disagree, it was 3 on 2 (4 on 3?) and defenders were quite narrow. Even in Barcelona he would pass more aften than not in this kind of situations.

Also, if he would go for the goal by himself and not score (which is very probably, as it's football and not basketball) he would be probably blamed for being "selfish", "not involving teammates" and all kind of shit. Just a different kind of shot he is blamed now.

Someone is going to blame Messi for being selfish??? Come on we are talking about Messi not Ronaldo.

My observation is that more often than not for Barcelona he keeps running at the defense until he has drawn enough defenders in that he can lay off a pass that is a sure goal. I don't really see him passing the ball 30 yards out and leaving others to do the work for the goal. He either scores it or he makes the final pass.

If you think he is the same player for Argentina as he is for Barcelona and that he doesn't deserve criticism for his performances with Argentina then fair enough. I honestly don't care. All I am saying is I understand why Argentinians are frustrated with him.

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Re: Copa America 2015

Post by stinger on Thu Jul 09, 2015 5:27 pm

I don't think he is the same player obviously, numbers don't lie.

But either I don't see a reason to criticize him, as there's nothing indicating that opinion of frustrated masses is true.
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ERIK LAMELA

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Re: Copa America 2015

Post by ERIK LAMELA on Sun Aug 09, 2015 10:02 am

I never want to see Higuain in an Argentina shirt again.

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