To an extent even the greatest coach is only ever as good as the players at his disposal. Even the best of tacticians can't turn a dismal side into a championship winning team. However, some coaches have stood out from the crowd due to their ability to get the best out of their players, or because of their revolutionary approach to the game.

Just to avoid people favouring current coaches/managers, lets make this about last century... Who do you think is the greatest football coach/manager of the 20th century??

Please nominate your top 5.

Mine would be:

1. Helenio Herrera - the "inventor" of Catenaccio!!
2. Rinus Michels - the father of "Total Football"
3. Ernst Happel - the only coach to win the European Cup with 2 different clubs
4. Arrigo Sacchi - the architect of Milan's golden era
5. Béla Guttmann - The inventor of "4-2-4" formation, only coach to ever win the European Cup (twice) and Copa Libertadores (Twice)!!

Honourable mentions:
Matt Busby
Helmut Schon
Marcelo Lippi
Valeri Lobanovsky
Mario Zagallo
Nereo Rocco
Perrera
Pozzo
Cruyff
Trapattoni
Paisley
Shankly
Munoz


The jury is still out on the likes of Capello, Mourinho and Hitzfeld.

So there's only one British coach?

Are you auditioning for a place next to Otto and Puro?

He did say nominate your top 5.

No, I did not put ANY British coach in my top five!! Busby only got a "honourable mention"

To be honest, I did put Brian Clough in the "next 10" list, but later decided on Trap over him. Clough was a great successful manager, but he was more of a "motivator" than a "tactician". SAF does not come in my top 15, sorry. And Herbert Chapman was too early and did not achieve much, tho I can understand why some people will put him there - he did contribute more than any other english coach to the game.

Why don't you give me yours?? We re allowed to have a different opinion... (even tho I doubt many would disagree with my top 3, perhaps we can argue the order, those guys basically invented the game as we know it today!)

Parks lives wrote:So there's only one British coach?

Are you auditioning for a place next to Otto and Puro?

Parks lives wrote:So there's only one British coach?

Are you auditioning for a place next to Otto and Puro?

He said to place your top 5, and then compare their achievements with Bluenine's.

Bill Shankly, Alex Ferguson and Bob Paisley all come above Herbert Chapman and Brian Clough.

Top 5

1. Rinus Michels
2. Matt Busby
3. Arrigo Sacchi
4. Bill Shankly
5. Vicente Del Bosque


Given the nod to Busby and Shankly over Ferguson and Paisley as they were the one's who effectively built there clubs from scratch. Paisley and Ferguson just carried on the great work.

Good list Bluenine. I'd put Tele Santana. His Sao Paulo teams in the early 90's played some of the best football I've seen. He beat Sacchi when Sacchi was at the top of his game.

Scolari makes my list as well. Carlos Bianchi is another great coach. He too can beat the best Europeans. For some reason most South American coaches aren't successful in Europe, but oh boy, see them beat those same top European teams with their own South American teams.

Will Bill Shankly be in your top 5 of all time, Obispo??

But yeah, he does deserve an honourable mention... what happend to my memory Come to think of it, I also forgot Miguel Muñoz! But neither will make my top 5 - those nomination I stand with and thought a lot about.

zen and the art of wrote:

I was going to mention Chapman but I see you have already discussed him bluenine. I think in terms of his relevance to the modernisation and development of football in England he was extremely significant, but it's understandably difficult to compare a manager from pre-WWII to those who came afterwards and I can see why you have left him out. I would still give him an 'honourable mention' though!

bluenine wrote:
3. Ernst Happel - the only coach to win the European Cup with 2 different clubs

Hitzfeld.

Paisley, to my knowledge, is the only man to have managed 3 European Cup winning sides.

In 9 years in charge he won 6 leagues and 3 European Cups - That basically averages out as one of the big 2 trophies every season for nigh on a decade.

Throw in a UEFA Cup, a clutch of league cups and the usual Super-cups and Charity Shields on top of that and you're telling me he can't make the top 5 ahead of Sacchi?

Seriously?? Forget Herrera, Del Bosque isn't even the greatest for Real... that would be Miguel Muñoz!

You are the Otto of england, parky

Parks lives wrote:Bill Shankly, Alex Ferguson and Bob Paisley all come above Herbert Chapman and Brian Clough.

Top 5

1. Rinus Michels
2. Matt Busby
3. Arrigo Sacchi
4. Bill Shankly
5. Vicente Del Bosque


Given the nod to Busby and Shankly over Ferguson and Paisley as they were the one's who effectively built there clubs from scratch. Paisley and Ferguson just carried on the great work.

bluenine wrote:Will Bill Shankly be in your top 5 of all time, Obispo??

Depends on how you want to look at it; I can see where Parky is coming from. In terms of building a club into something great, he did a fantastic job and probably deserves his place ahead of Paisley. Then again, Paisley was extrordinarily successful, so I'd choose him personally. If it were upto me they'd both be in there

Over the likes of Herrera, Michels, Happel, Guttmann, etc??

zen and the art of wrote:

bluenine wrote:Will Bill Shankly be in your top 5 of all time, Obispo??

Depends on how you want to look at it; I can see where Parky is coming from. In terms of building a club into something great, he did a fantastic job and probably deserves his place ahead of Paisley. Then again, Paisley was extrordinarily successful, so I'd choose him personally. If it were upto me they'd both be in there

1. Rinus Michels
2. Ernst Happel

3. Stefan Kovacs - for those who don't know him, the most successful league Football manager ever, also took Michels/Vic Buckingham idea of Total Football to the next level.

4. Bob Paisley
5. Helenio Herrera

bluenine wrote:Over the likes of Herrera, Michels, Happel, Guttmann, etc??

zen and the art of wrote:

bluenine wrote:Will Bill Shankly be in your top 5 of all time, Obispo??

Depends on how you want to look at it; I can see where Parky is coming from. In terms of building a club into something great, he did a fantastic job and probably deserves his place ahead of Paisley. Then again, Paisley was extrordinarily successful, so I'd choose him personally. If it were upto me they'd both be in there

Probably. You've got to remember that all 4 of them were way before my time, and unlike Paisley and Shankly never managed the club I support, so I have no real knowledge of their acheivements. And I'm certainly not told about it on a nigh on daily basis by fans of their clubs, unlike with Paisley and Shankly.

Seems to me though like you've gone for innovative managers, perhaps ahead of the more successful ones.

Kovacs, good call But he basically carried on the work that Rinus started.

Kovacs over Herrera, you dutchies just hate catenaccio, don't ya?

Rai Krol wrote:1. Rinus Michels
2. Ernst Happel
3. Stefan Kovacs
4. Bob Paisley
5. Helenio Herrera

@ Bluenine

Kovacs took the concept to the next level

He won back to back European Cups and done the European Treble ..

I'm not a fan of catenaccio, but its effective i give you that.

You are right, thats what I have tried to say in the first para.

There are a lot of really successful managers, we could easily list 20 at more or less the same level. But some of them were much more than that, they invented a style... their contribution to the game as a coach/manager was much more because of that.

Coz you can win championships fi you are a good coach and have the right resources. But to totally revolutionalise the game, thats just mindblowing, Herrera and Michels being the best examples.

zen and the art of wrote:

bluenine wrote:Over the likes of Herrera, Michels, Happel, Guttmann, etc??

zen and the art of wrote:

bluenine wrote:Will Bill Shankly be in your top 5 of all time, Obispo??

Depends on how you want to look at it; I can see where Parky is coming from. In terms of building a club into something great, he did a fantastic job and probably deserves his place ahead of Paisley. Then again, Paisley was extrordinarily successful, so I'd choose him personally. If it were upto me they'd both be in there

Probably. You've got to remember that all 4 of them were way before my time, and unlike Paisley and Shankly never managed the club I support, so I have no real knowledge of their acheivements. And I'm certainly not told about it on a nigh on daily basis by fans of their clubs, unlike with Paisley and Shankly.

Seems to me though like you've gone for innovative managers, perhaps ahead of the more successful ones.

That he did

Infact, the real total football happened in Kovac's reign more than Michels.... I think Michels more or less stumbled upon it mainly coz of Cryuff.

Rai Krol wrote:@ Bluenine

Kovacs took the concept to the next level

He won back to back European Cups and done the European Treble ..

I'm not a fan of catenaccio, but its effective i give you that.

bluenine wrote:That he did

Infact, the real total football happened in Kovac's reign more than Michels.... I think Michels more or less stumbled upon it mainly coz of Cryuff.

Rai Krol wrote:@ Bluenine

Kovacs took the concept to the next level

He won back to back European Cups and done the European Treble ..

I'm not a fan of catenaccio, but its effective i give you that.

Vic Buckingham .. the man who 'laid the foundations' he discovered Cruijff.

Michels was clever to use players who knew each other well into the system

Kovacs had a mature version as basically everyone in the team could play in any role with ease .. the early stage would take time. Total Football can only work if you have the same team who are top athletes for a number of years, you cant just get 11 guys from the street and out them together no matter how good they are at football.

I regard Michel's higher as he took Buckingham's idea to the next level plus he could adapt it with Holland and FC Barcelona when he was in charge.

Ruud Krol + Cruyff = the Total Footballers.

Zagallo is the only man on earth who has won 4 World Cups.

Rai Krol wrote:1. Rinus Michels
2. Ernst Happel

3. Stefan Kovacs - for those who don't know him, the most successful league Football manager ever, also took Michels/Vic Buckingham idea of Total Football to the next level.

4. Bob Paisley
5. Helenio Herrera

He managed Steaua before coming to Holland and it's considered one of the best coaches in Steaua's history (along side Ienei and Iordanescu).

My top 5 would be:

1. Brian Clough
2. Bob Paisley
3. Arrigo Sacchi
4. Rinus Michels
5. Valeri Lobanovsky

Mourinho
Mourinho
Mourinho
Mourinho
Mourinho



Or

1. Clough
2. Paisley
3. Herrera
4. Michels
5. Pozzo

Brian Clough easy the rest cannot be fit enough to kiss his boots..... Making Division 3 and 2 players win the Division 1 with Derby County....Never having the money of the big teams Cloughie was by far the best tactican he had to be.....

Brian2468 wrote:Brian Clough easy the rest cannot be fit enough to kiss his boots..... Making Division 3 and 2 players win the Division 1 with Derby County....Never having the money of the big teams Cloughie was by far the best tactican he had to be.....

It's a little strange how Ferguson became a Sir while Clough and Paisley didn't.

blutgraetsche wrote:

bluenine wrote:
3. Ernst Happel - the only coach to win the European Cup with 2 different clubs

Hitzfeld.

Premature, but Mourinho too.

no one has mention Sven yet.

For me:
Shankly
Paisley
Fergie
Clough
Benitez

Benitez, among the greatest 5 coaches of the 20th century? And no Herrera and Michels?

I shouldn't have bothered with this thread...

Saddam Hussein wrote:no one has mention Sven yet.

For me:
Shankly
Paisley
Fergie
Clough
Benitez