The Milan V Manchester United game brings up this extremely interesting duel, quite unique in the fact that those who know their football will know the two are uncannily similar:

excellent first touch, vision, elegance, two feet, passing ability.

By reputation alone, Pirlo is still streaks ahead. We have all seem plenty of the man- the good (WC) and the bad (previous CL seasons where he has "choked" in the later stages)

Carrick is still a lesser known quantity. But I predicted a long time ago that Carrick would go onto great things once he has become familiar with his teammates (unlike Pirlo, he has never been bedded and left to blossom at international level): the talent is so blindingly obvious, and now he has added goalscoring to his armoury, his season at United couldnt have gone much better.

This will be where the game is probably won - Ronaldo cannot do his tricks without the ball, Kaka cannot mesmerise defences without the supply.

Carrick, aided by Scholes

and Pirlo, defended by Gattuso

which midfield is going to dominate?

What are your own views on this, or indeed any of the likely comparative head to heads? (Ferdinand V Nesta, Ronaldo V Kaka, Rooney V Gilardino, etc)

Well in truth Pirlo is well ahead of Carrick , I am a big admirer of the man (Carrick) but Pirlo technically is a superior player but now we come to the point that Pirlo plays with a classic DMC while Carrick plays with an AMC that only tells how important Carrick's contribution have been specially when we are attacking while his main job(this season) has been defensive.

Dark Savant wrote:Well in truth Pirlo is well ahead of Carrick , I am a big admirer of the man (Carrick) but Pirlo technically is a superior player but now we come to the point that Pirlo plays with a classic DMC while Carrick plays with an AMC that only tells how important Carrick's contribution have been specially when we are attacking while his main job(this season) has been defensive.

Personally, I couldnt agree less. I have seen an awful lot of Pirlo and I dont see there to be much in it at all. Infact I believe he lives a lot on his reputation like a lot of the top players. Im interested to see how they will compare on the same pitch

Carrick is 2 yrs younger Weasel and how he have played this season have raised my expectations from him.

Well , Pirlo was the playmaker of the worldcup winning team , done it for Milan loads and loads of time both in Serie A and CL.
I rate him ahead of Carrick but I again state that he plays with a destroyer while Carrick is the one for us.

It is impossible to compare Pirlo and Carrick at International level- one has been playing seemlessly for the under 21's and national side all his life in a position that is revered and lauded, with a midfield built around him as a playmaker defended by a destroyer in Gattuso. This of course is homage to his gifts, but I wonder how different Carrick's career would have been had he been Italian.

There is no doubt in terms of career achievement- Pirlo >>>>>>>>>>>> Carrick.

But then the same was said of Totti V Ronaldo, and to be honest Totti got his reputation shredded by the Portuguese over those 2 legs.

Not saying the same will happen in this particular duel, but its worth remembering that the Carrick/Pirlo deep lying playmaker position virtually doesnt exist in a traditional 4-4-2 environment of English football. Infact, even at United Carrick has to do a lot more defending than Pirlo because he plays with an attacking player in Scholes.

I thought it was quite a statement of intent that Carrick's finest game in a United shirt was when he took on that more forward role versus Roma when Scholes was suspended, playing with a destroyer in Fletcher.

With Scholes nearing retirement, and the possibility of a player like Hargreaves being signed, it wouldnt suprise me to see more performances like that from Carrick in the future.

Will be very interesting to see how it pans out over the two games

Pirlo was the best Italian player on the World Cup and deserved to win the golden ball much more than Cannavaro! Carrick haven't been that good yet....

Pirlo>>>> Carrick no doubt!

What about the midfield tussle then?

Personally I dont think the Scholes/Carrick partnership gives United's midfield enough "bite". Scholes is an abysmal tackler whilst Carrick isnt an energetic midfielder. At times United's midfield when those two have played can often look voerrun- Gattuso might have a field day against those two.

Perhaps , judging on the Roma game, a combo of Fletcher and one of the two might work better? Fletcher is excellent at breaking up attacks, far batter tackler than Scholes. Passing wise things may suffer, but when Milan have a beast like Gattuso running about breaking things down, there needs to be a tamer

The sky's the limit for Carrick imo. If he can do his midfield work as well as he's done, increase his passing and link up play like we know he can and add the 10 goals a season, he will be World class.

O god I see it already.....

Carrrick will be the new Lampard of England.... They are praising him as World Class now but after a bad Euro 2008 he will be punished for everything...!

Poor lad....

Ricardo Jol wrote:O god I see it already.....

Carrrick will be the new Lampard of England.... They are praising him as World Class now but after a bad Euro 2008 he will be punished for everything...!

Poor lad....

Nah, because Carrick wont be playing for England - he's not an archetypal English midfielder so Mclaren wont pick him

I Am Weasel wrote:What about the midfield tussle then?

Personally I dont think the Scholes/Carrick partnership gives United's midfield enough "bite". Scholes is an abysmal tackler whilst Carrick isnt an energetic midfielder. At times United's midfield when those two have played can often look voerrun- Gattuso might have a field day against those two.

Perhaps , judging on the Roma game, a combo of Fletcher and one of the two might work better? Fletcher is excellent at breaking up attacks, far batter tackler than Scholes. Passing wise things may suffer, but when Milan have a beast like Gattuso running about breaking things down, there needs to be a tamer

Gattuso - Pirlo played for a long time together. And that’s what’s going to make the diference. Man U doesn’t have anyone as good as Gattuso. The only player I saw causing trouble to Gattuso was last year Ronaldinho, and United don’t have a Ronaldinho. Just look at what Gattuso can do(bbc pre-final coverage, one to watch: gennaro gattuso):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l17LxC-7uM4&mode=related&search=

I don't think its fair to compare them ..

however, their roles will be important

Carrick is no getting into 'more advanced' positions .. due to confidence and the belief in the team

His pass to Rooney just after he scored against Sheffield United ... amazing.

The thing is, with Milan it really isn't a duel between the two partnerships. With Seedorf and Kaka hovering about their midfield formation is going to cause united problems - and the only way round I can see is to use the wingers as much as possible. It's still a massive challenge for Carrick and Scholes to keep solid and move the ball around - but I reckon the battle is a tactical one.

Generally I'd say that the two players fit different formations. Carrick is growing into his position in a two man central pairing. Pirlo seems at his best when the opponent has other central threats to deal with and leave space for him.

I think the key man may well be Giggs. With Gattuso in there the centre will be pretty impenetrable, and Ronaldo is likely to get targeted as the main threat. Giggs hasn't been all that consistent for ManU this season (old age), but if he's at his best his movement, vision and skill could give Milan real problems.

Pirlo is the better player, but not as far ahead as I once thought. At the begining of the season I would have laughed at such a comparisson, but Carrick is really growing as a player, his paasing and vision is fantastic and it also turns out he can shoot as well.

What is true is that Carrick could play in Pirlo's position at Milan and do a good job, Pirlo couldnt play in Carricks position at united. Only if carrick plays with Hargreaves for a long time can he show the world he is as good as Pirlo.

Chap wrote:The thing is, with Milan it really isn't a duel between the two partnerships. With Seedorf and Kaka hovering about their midfield formation is going to cause united problems - and the only way round I can see is to use the wingers as much as possible. It's still a massive challenge for Carrick and Scholes to keep solid and move the ball around - but I reckon the battle is a tactical one.

Generally I'd say that the two players fit different formations. Carrick is growing into his position in a two man central pairing. Pirlo seems at his best when the opponent has other central threats to deal with and leave space for him.

I think the key man may well be Giggs. With Gattuso in there the centre will be pretty impenetrable, and Ronaldo is likely to get targeted as the main threat. Giggs hasn't been all that consistent for ManU this season (old age), but if he's at his best his movement, vision and skill could give Milan real problems.

Chap, I do also worry of a Carrick and Scholes partnership against 3 central midfielders. I think we would need to play Smith up front and tell him to harass him as soon as he picks up the ball like he did against the Roma defenders, as if we give him time and space he will cut threw the team.

Put Fletcher on Kaka and we will be fine, however who do we drop for fletcher?

Pirlo is far better than Carrick. Yes Carrick has had a great season and is improving all the time but he is still not at Pirlo's level. Pirlo can open up any defence in the world and has shown his class on the European and world stage. Carrick although a very good player is still some way off that stage yet in my opinion. Carrick was sensational against Roma and Sheff Utd but to be fair he has to do it on a consistent basis agains better defences.

Agree with that Goater, he needs a couple of more years.

I think Pele just gets a hard-on with Carrick.

Parks lives wrote:Agree with that Goater, he needs a couple of more years.

I think Pele just gets a hard-on with Carrick.

Whats a hard on? I have no genitals - for the sake of all those lovely ladeez out there I was castrated at a young age. Now Im purely asexual.

Well, in this particular duel, 'tis true - Carrick gets extra points in my book for ;-
a) not having a lady's name
b) not looking like an extremely ugly bird

IMO Pirlo's best was not in the world cup... it was the CL winning season and till a few seasons after that.

Carrick does not have the vision of Pirlo. At least I haven't seen it yet. Remember, Pirlo showed that vision from a very young age, he was the star in the U17s & U21s for Italy, hailed as the next Zidane/Baggio. Infact, even after all his accomplishments with Milan and Azzurri, Pirlo still had a bigger impact for the azzurini and IMO yet to fulfill that potential.

The key to beating Milan would be to dominate their midfield. If ManU can dictate the pace there, Milan will be found out. It won't be easy with kaka+Seedorf+Gattuso+Pirlo+probably Ambrosini (I think Milan will opt for a 5 man midfield again). But ManU can do it, specially if they play at their pace. THAT will be the exciting contest, not Pirlo-Carrick.

I Am Weasel wrote:The Milan V Manchester United game brings up this extremely interesting duel, quite unique in the fact that those who know their football will know the two are uncannily similar:

excellent first touch, vision, elegance, two feet, passing ability.

By reputation alone, Pirlo is still streaks ahead. We have all seem plenty of the man- the good (WC) and the bad (previous CL seasons where he has "choked" in the later stages)

Carrick is still a lesser known quantity. But I predicted a long time ago that Carrick would go onto great things once he has become familiar with his teammates (unlike Pirlo, he has never been bedded and left to blossom at international level): the talent is so blindingly obvious, and now he has added goalscoring to his armoury, his season at United couldnt have gone much better.

This will be where the game is probably won - Ronaldo cannot do his tricks without the ball, Kaka cannot mesmerise defences without the supply.

Carrick, aided by Scholes

and Pirlo, defended by Gattuso

which midfield is going to dominate?

What are your own views on this, or indeed any of the likely comparative head to heads? (Ferdinand V Nesta, Ronaldo V Kaka, Rooney V Gilardino, etc)

I Am Weasel wrote:It is impossible to compare Pirlo and Carrick at International level- one has been playing seemlessly for the under 21's and national side all his life in a position that is revered and lauded, with a midfield built around him as a playmaker defended by a destroyer in Gattuso. This of course is homage to his gifts, but I wonder how different Carrick's career would have been had he been Italian.

There is no doubt in terms of career achievement- Pirlo >>>>>>>>>>>> Carrick.

But then the same was said of Totti V Ronaldo, and to be honest Totti got his reputation shredded by the Portuguese over those 2 legs.

Not saying the same will happen in this particular duel, but its worth remembering that the Carrick/Pirlo deep lying playmaker position virtually doesnt exist in a traditional 4-4-2 environment of English football. Infact, even at United Carrick has to do a lot more defending than Pirlo because he plays with an attacking player in Scholes.

I thought it was quite a statement of intent that Carrick's finest game in a United shirt was when he took on that more forward role versus Roma when Scholes was suspended, playing with a destroyer in Fletcher.

With Scholes nearing retirement, and the possibility of a player like Hargreaves being signed, it wouldnt suprise me to see more performances like that from Carrick in the future.

Will be very interesting to see how it pans out over the two games

Pirlo only became a regular under Lippi. The midfield has hardly been built around him - most playmakers have a destroyer to help them out, its just common sense. Also, Lippi played a straight 442 in the world cup, which was definately not to Pirlo's liking, yet he still shone.

Like others have said, Pirlo has proved himself at every level, while Carrick is just beginning. You should probably oompare Carrick with someone like Aquilani.

I Am Weasel wrote:

Parks lives wrote:Agree with that Goater, he needs a couple of more years.

I think Pele just gets a hard-on with Carrick.

Whats a hard on? I have no genitals - for the sake of all those lovely ladeez out there I was castrated at a young age. Now Im purely asexual.

Well, in this particular duel, 'tis true - Carrick gets extra points in my book for ;-
a) not having a lady's name
b) not looking like an extremely ugly bird

As a Carrick expert, do you think he could ever be a real playmaker. Playing in front of two midfielders etc?

Parks lives wrote:

I Am Weasel wrote:

Parks lives wrote:Agree with that Goater, he needs a couple of more years.

I think Pele just gets a hard-on with Carrick.

Whats a hard on? I have no genitals - for the sake of all those lovely ladeez out there I was castrated at a young age. Now Im purely asexual.

Well, in this particular duel, 'tis true - Carrick gets extra points in my book for ;-
a) not having a lady's name
b) not looking like an extremely ugly bird

As a Carrick expert, do you think he could ever be a real playmaker. Playing in front of two midfielders etc?

I think Carrick is a player heavily reliant on confidence - the end of last season at spurs he could do no wrong, he was even walzing his way through defenders with the ball, he had become THE man at spurs and played without any pressure.

That performance against the Arse at highbury he was more or less playing as a playmaker behind the frontmen. He looked immense.

Since the move, its been in the past that sometimes its as though he doesnt realise how good he is, or maybe overawed at how good his teammates are- you have players like Lampard and Gerrard who arent scared to try hollywood balls, 50 yard shots, ridiculous passes, doing everything despite probably not being good enough to (in Lamps' case), Carrick seemed to take a much more backseated role, looke shaky and was unfamiliar.

Now he's playing with that confidence and familiarity he did at Spurs, I think he has the creative ability to play as a playmaker no question.

Just with Hargreaves almost certainly arriving it would seem obvious that for years that could be our first choice central midfield. However we have a young whipper snapper on loan who could be the real deal (looks an excellent prospect) and he plays central midfield too, pretty similar player to Carrick though he will be stronger imo. So could play all 3 in midfield and then Ronaldo, Rooney and a striker in front.

This is all obviously a couple of years down the line though.

whose the young whipper snapper? best to have plenty of cover in midfield anyway

Darren Gibson.

Better and Bigger than Huddlestone!

Dont let TS hear that sacrilige!

I Am Weasel wrote:

Parks lives wrote:

I Am Weasel wrote:

Parks lives wrote:Agree with that Goater, he needs a couple of more years.

I think Pele just gets a hard-on with Carrick.

Whats a hard on? I have no genitals - for the sake of all those lovely ladeez out there I was castrated at a young age. Now Im purely asexual.

Well, in this particular duel, 'tis true - Carrick gets extra points in my book for ;-
a) not having a lady's name
b) not looking like an extremely ugly bird

As a Carrick expert, do you think he could ever be a real playmaker. Playing in front of two midfielders etc?

I think Carrick is a player heavily reliant on confidence - the end of last season at spurs he could do no wrong, he was even walzing his way through defenders with the ball, he had become THE man at spurs and played without any pressure.

That performance against the Arse at highbury he was more or less playing as a playmaker behind the frontmen. He looked immense.

Since the move, its been in the past that sometimes its as though he doesnt realise how good he is, or maybe overawed at how good his teammates are- you have players like Lampard and Gerrard who arent scared to try hollywood balls, 50 yard shots, ridiculous passes, doing everything despite probably not being good enough to (in Lamps' case), Carrick seemed to take a much more backseated role, looke shaky and was unfamiliar.

Now he's playing with that confidence and familiarity he did at Spurs, I think he has the creative ability to play as a playmaker no question.

I remember that game and thinking when did Carrick turn into Rui Costa. That run when he beat half the arse defence, the keeper would have been one of the goals of the season, but he got a nosebleed and missed.

Pirlo is a central midfielder with 1 very good skill, like lampard with his shooting. If we look at other players who have 1 very good skill but are not all the great, there is rommedhal, cisse with their speed, Owen with his positioning, etc. We give more credit to Pirlo though because passing is a more important part of the game than shooting, dribbling etc. However as an all-round player he is found lacking in many areas.

Pirlo has also been pretty poor this season, maybe another world cup hangover like many players. But I reckon he's only had a couple of good seasons at the top level anyway. I saw him play live for Inter for years and he was generally poor. He did play in a more advanced role like Kaka but was weak on the ball. Inter sold him to Milan for about 10 million euros (not all that much considering how much he's hyped). At Milan he has been in the centre with gattuso which he prefers as he is not being marked so tightly and can play his passes. At the same time he can lazily run around while gattuso and seedorf (or ambrosini) do all the hard work. He has had his best years here, although giving him credit for Milan getting so far year after year in the league or CL is ignoring what a great defence and striker force Milan have had in the last few years. Now with an aging defence and missing sheva they have become more reliant on the midfield, and except for their CL semi-final they have been found lacking in general.

Carrick does not quite have the passing and vision of pirlo, but is athletically better and seems to do well when scholes goes missing (e.g. the league game between manu and chelsea), or when scholes is not there at all like against Roma so would agree that he might benefit for being the main guy who the ball is passsed to and have a defensive midfielder next to him to release him a bit more.

Pirlo had the kind of impact at the world cup that Lampard normally has in games. He might have scored or set-up a couple of goals but in general was not doing a great deal. Part of the reason the strikers didn't perform was due to the lack of service from the midfield. Cannavaro, matterazzi, oddo, buffon, gattuso are just some of the players who were better than him, and Italy won the world cup on being defensively solid and 1 very good game against Germany.

110% wrote:Pirlo is a central midfielder with 1 very good skill, like lampard with his shooting. If we look at other players who have 1 very good skill but are not all the great, there is rommedhal, cisse with their speed, Owen with his positioning, etc. We give more credit to Pirlo though because passing is a more important part of the game than shooting, dribbling etc. However as an all-round player he is found lacking in many areas.

Pirlo has also been pretty poor this season, maybe another world cup hangover like many players. But I reckon he's only had a couple of good seasons at the top level anyway. I saw him play live for Inter for years and he was generally poor. He did play in a more advanced role like Kaka but was weak on the ball. Inter sold him to Milan for about 10 million euros (not all that much considering how much he's hyped). At Milan he has been in the centre with gattuso which he prefers as he is not being marked so tightly and can play his passes. At the same time he can lazily run around while gattuso and seedorf (or ambrosini) do all the hard work. He has had his best years here, although giving him credit for Milan getting so far year after year in the league or CL is ignoring what a great defence and striker force Milan have had in the last few years. Now with an aging defence and missing sheva they have become more reliant on the midfield, and except for their CL semi-final they have been found lacking in general.

Carrick does not quite have the passing and vision of pirlo, but is athletically better and seems to do well when scholes goes missing (e.g. the league game between manu and chelsea), or when scholes is not there at all like against Roma so would agree that he might benefit for being the main guy who the ball is passsed to and have a defensive midfielder next to him to release him a bit more.

Pirlo had the kind of impact at the world cup that Lampard normally has in games. He might have scored or set-up a couple of goals but in general was not doing a great deal. Part of the reason the strikers didn't perform was due to the lack of service from the midfield. Cannavaro, matterazzi, oddo, buffon, gattuso are just some of the players who were better than him, and Italy won the world cup on being defensively solid and 1 very good game against Germany.

Good post, I havent watched him week in week out, but when I have he has normally played well. I remember watching him play for Inter and he didnt really do much, but back then at Inter nobody looked good, aprt from Zanetti.

He lacks the physical attributes to become one of the best players a in the world, but for his position I dont think there is anyone else as good as him, maybe Xavi. I think he is a bit like Riquelme, they need the whole team to work for him, so they can function. So when the team is struggling they dont play that well.

Carrick is alot better than I thought he was, but I guess its easy to look good when you're playing with good players. If he reaches Pirlo's level of passing and vision, it will be money well spent.

As I said before I think Carrick could do Pirlos job at milan, not as well. However Pirlo couldnt play Carricks role at united.

110% wrote:Pirlo is a central midfielder with 1 very good skill, like lampard with his shooting. If we look at other players who have 1 very good skill but are not all the great, there is rommedhal, cisse with their speed, Owen with his positioning, etc. We give more credit to Pirlo though because passing is a more important part of the game than shooting, dribbling etc. However as an all-round player he is found lacking in many areas.

Pirlo has also been pretty poor this season, maybe another world cup hangover like many players. But I reckon he's only had a couple of good seasons at the top level anyway. I saw him play live for Inter for years and he was generally poor. He did play in a more advanced role like Kaka but was weak on the ball. Inter sold him to Milan for about 10 million euros (not all that much considering how much he's hyped). At Milan he has been in the centre with gattuso which he prefers as he is not being marked so tightly and can play his passes. At the same time he can lazily run around while gattuso and seedorf (or ambrosini) do all the hard work. He has had his best years here, although giving him credit for Milan getting so far year after year in the league or CL is ignoring what a great defence and striker force Milan have had in the last few years. Now with an aging defence and missing sheva they have become more reliant on the midfield, and except for their CL semi-final they have been found lacking in general.

Carrick does not quite have the passing and vision of pirlo, but is athletically better and seems to do well when scholes goes missing (e.g. the league game between manu and chelsea), or when scholes is not there at all like against Roma so would agree that he might benefit for being the main guy who the ball is passsed to and have a defensive midfielder next to him to release him a bit more.

Pirlo had the kind of impact at the world cup that Lampard normally has in games. He might have scored or set-up a couple of goals but in general was not doing a great deal. Part of the reason the strikers didn't perform was due to the lack of service from the midfield. Cannavaro, matterazzi, oddo, buffon, gattuso are just some of the players who were better than him, and Italy won the world cup on being defensively solid and 1 very good game against Germany.

Oddo?? he played what 15 minutes? I think you're underrating Pirlo's importance. Italy has always been strong defensively so thats not the only reason for them winning. Pirlo dictated the play for Italy, something Italy hasnt really had since the days of Albertini. We all know why Totti didnt score many, and Toni had enough chances to get 4 or 5 goals in the tournament, but he didnt take them. Also remember, Italys goals came from everywhere.

Yes Pirlo is lacking in other areas, but why would he want to become good defensively when its not his job? He's one of the best in the world at what he does, and he's proved himself at every level.